ndlionsfan wrote:I always like discussing these ideas even though they'll never go anywhere with the NDHSAA. I just don't understand what your reasoning is for not including Velva, Oakes, Bowman Co, and Nedrose in the A division based on their enrollments.
classB4ever wrote:ndlionsfan wrote:I always like discussing these ideas even though they'll never go anywhere with the NDHSAA. I just don't understand what your reasoning is for not including Velva, Oakes, Bowman Co, and Nedrose in the A division based on their enrollments.
Of course it will never happen, but like to stir the pot every now and then. Those are all old numbers that I just copied/pasted from way upthread. However, when I did that it was based strictly on geography for travel purposes, etc. Took first 8 teams (including private) in that area according to enrollment and everybody below that went to lower class. So, there would be some teams in certain regions with higher enrollment than in other regions. Oakes for instance was the 9th team in Region 1, so fell to Region 1B.
The Schwab wrote:The 3 class system is the one example that really shows the NDHSAA doesn't care about what it's member schools want. The vote passed the district chairs meeting a few years back with a 14-2 vote.
Bison-Vikes #1 wrote:It's too late for a 3 class system. With the decline of population in rural areas and loss of participation due to parity issues in current system, believe what you see now is what you will see for next 20 years. Handful of teams will dominate every year. 1 team from a small school will come along every now and then, but will happen less and less as time goes on.
B Historian wrote:Bison-Vikes #1 wrote:It's too late for a 3 class system. With the decline of population in rural areas and loss of participation due to parity issues in current system, believe what you see now is what you will see for next 20 years. Handful of teams will dominate every year. 1 team from a small school will come along every now and then, but will happen less and less as time goes on.
SD has had a 3-class system for 35 years and that state is having similar problems with participation and parity issues.
Times change and values change and I think those factors play a large role in the participation issues. But I also think the game is harder to play for the "average" athlete than it was 30 years ago: It's faster and you have to be able to shoot well from greater distances. With so many other options of things to do now, it's much easier for the average kid to give up the game, especially when playing could also mean traveling 30 minutes just to get to practice in some of these coops.
B Historian wrote:Times change and values change and I think those factors play a large role in the participation issues. But I also think the game is harder to play for the "average" athlete than it was 30 years ago: It's faster and you have to be able to shoot well from greater distances. With so many other options of things to do now, it's much easier for the average kid to give up the game, especially when playing could also mean traveling 30 minutes just to get to practice in some of these coops.
B Historian wrote:Also, I never see this talked about, but I think the shot clock has made the parity issues worse in Class B. Sure, the shot clock is fine when teams like Enderlin and Four Winds play, but for the 90% of the rest of these schools it doesn't make sense. It's just logical that a team with less shooters and athletes is going to play worse basketball with the shot clock. I am shocked at the number of games this season with teams scoring in the 20's. The Utopian vision of 80-78 scores in Class B every night has not materialized.
Flying Wallenda wrote:When this came around again a few years back membership schools voted 60% against and 40% for a 3 class system. Its hard to change classifications when the majority of the schools aren't in favor.
The Schwab wrote:Flying Wallenda wrote:When this came around again a few years back membership schools voted 60% against and 40% for a 3 class system. Its hard to change classifications when the majority of the schools aren't in favor.
I have heard the reason for this is so many schools are voting on the belief of "if it doesn't help us specifically we won't vote for it" would you agree with that assessment?
Flying Wallenda wrote:The Schwab wrote:Flying Wallenda wrote:When this came around again a few years back membership schools voted 60% against and 40% for a 3 class system. Its hard to change classifications when the majority of the schools aren't in favor.
I have heard the reason for this is so many schools are voting on the belief of "if it doesn't help us specifically we won't vote for it" would you agree with that assessment?
Any response would be purely speculation on my part. I have to believe that a large number of member schools have no desire to travel excessively in Dec/Jan/Feb. Adding an additional class would certainly add to that.
The Schwab wrote:Flying Wallenda wrote:The Schwab wrote:Flying Wallenda wrote:When this came around again a few years back membership schools voted 60% against and 40% for a 3 class system. Its hard to change classifications when the majority of the schools aren't in favor.
I have heard the reason for this is so many schools are voting on the belief of "if it doesn't help us specifically we won't vote for it" would you agree with that assessment?
Any response would be purely speculation on my part. I have to believe that a large number of member schools have no desire to travel excessively in Dec/Jan/Feb. Adding an additional class would certainly add to that.
I agree for sure that travel is a huge piece to the puzzle. If we went to a 3 class system we could essentially play the same schools for regular season, use a power points formula like South Dakota, and add a 3rd class of tournaments.
The Schwab wrote:Flying Wallenda wrote:The Schwab wrote:Flying Wallenda wrote:When this came around again a few years back membership schools voted 60% against and 40% for a 3 class system. Its hard to change classifications when the majority of the schools aren't in favor.
I have heard the reason for this is so many schools are voting on the belief of "if it doesn't help us specifically we won't vote for it" would you agree with that assessment?
Any response would be purely speculation on my part. I have to believe that a large number of member schools have no desire to travel excessively in Dec/Jan/Feb. Adding an additional class would certainly add to that.
I agree for sure that travel is a huge piece to the puzzle. If we went to a 3 class system we could essentially play the same schools for regular season, use a power points formula like South Dakota, and add a 3rd class of tournaments.
ndlionsfan wrote:The Schwab wrote:Flying Wallenda wrote:The Schwab wrote:Flying Wallenda wrote:When this came around again a few years back membership schools voted 60% against and 40% for a 3 class system. Its hard to change classifications when the majority of the schools aren't in favor.
I have heard the reason for this is so many schools are voting on the belief of "if it doesn't help us specifically we won't vote for it" would you agree with that assessment?
Any response would be purely speculation on my part. I have to believe that a large number of member schools have no desire to travel excessively in Dec/Jan/Feb. Adding an additional class would certainly add to that.
I agree for sure that travel is a huge piece to the puzzle. If we went to a 3 class system we could essentially play the same schools for regular season, use a power points formula like South Dakota, and add a 3rd class of tournaments.
Is it though? I know this season has some special circumstances, but our local high school co-op of Benson County has traveled to the following schools for away games: Richland, Napoleon, Westhope, Edinburg, and has region games against Langdon each year. Plus they have had Park River and MPCG travel to our school. Those are huge distances for regular season games compared to 10+ years ago anyway. All of the top teams in the state are traveling to all corners to play the best teams.
Bison-Vikes #1 wrote: SD has approximately 274 public schools and 16 private. They are fielding 18 - AA teams, 55 - A teams and 84 - B teams. Percentage of bbb teams to high schools is 54%. ND has approximately 177 public schools and 16 private. They are fielding 22 - A teams and 126 B - teams. Percentage of bbb teams to high schools is 65%. You could say that ND has a better participation rate than SD. The question remains, how many more teams would there be if ND would have went to 3 classes 20 years ago? How many co-ops would not have happened if there was more parity in the smaller schools?
The Schwab wrote:Flying Wallenda wrote:When this came around again a few years back membership schools voted 60% against and 40% for a 3 class system. Its hard to change classifications when the majority of the schools aren't in favor.
I have heard the reason for this is so many schools are voting on the belief of "if it doesn't help us specifically we won't vote for it" would you agree with that assessment?
B Historian wrote:Also, I never see this talked about, but I think the shot clock has made the parity issues worse in Class B. Sure, the shot clock is fine when teams like Enderlin and Four Winds play, but for the 90% of the rest of these schools it doesn't make sense. It's just logical that a team with less shooters and athletes is going to play worse basketball with the shot clock. I am shocked at the number of games this season with teams scoring in the 20's. The Utopian vision of 80-78 scores in Class B every night has not materialized.
Flip wrote:B Historian wrote:Also, I never see this talked about, but I think the shot clock has made the parity issues worse in Class B. Sure, the shot clock is fine when teams like Enderlin and Four Winds play, but for the 90% of the rest of these schools it doesn't make sense. It's just logical that a team with less shooters and athletes is going to play worse basketball with the shot clock. I am shocked at the number of games this season with teams scoring in the 20's. The Utopian vision of 80-78 scores in Class B every night has not materialized.
I think the parity issues have got worse in the shot clock era, but I don't think it is due to the shot clock. Teams that are scoring in the 20s wouldn't be scoring in the 30s if they took away the shot clock IMO. How many teams lack shooters and athletes, but have competent ball-handling and passing to hang on to the ball for 35 seconds? I'd say very few.
B Historian wrote:Flip wrote:B Historian wrote:Also, I never see this talked about, but I think the shot clock has made the parity issues worse in Class B. Sure, the shot clock is fine when teams like Enderlin and Four Winds play, but for the 90% of the rest of these schools it doesn't make sense. It's just logical that a team with less shooters and athletes is going to play worse basketball with the shot clock. I am shocked at the number of games this season with teams scoring in the 20's. The Utopian vision of 80-78 scores in Class B every night has not materialized.
I think the parity issues have got worse in the shot clock era, but I don't think it is due to the shot clock. Teams that are scoring in the 20s wouldn't be scoring in the 30s if they took away the shot clock IMO. How many teams lack shooters and athletes, but have competent ball-handling and passing to hang on to the ball for 35 seconds? I'd say very few.
The shot clock has forced all teams to play the same style. Teams that would be better off slowing it down or trying to run something more patterned on offense are forced to play at a pace they may not be comfortable with. With the shot clock, teams take the first somewhat open shot they can get. This doesn't lead to good basketball and makes the less talented teams even worse compared to the teams they are playing. I watch a lot of HS basketball in another state that doesn't have the shot clock. The games have a much more natural flow to them and coaching/strategy play a larger role when there is no shot clock.
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