Rules Change

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Rules Change

Postby Flip » Tue May 16, 2023 11:29 am

NFHS is getting rid of bonus FTs and administrating two FTs on the 5th foul per quarter. Resetting fouls every quarter. This should start in 23-24.

As of now, I'm not in favor of this. I always feel like there are teams who foul the entire game knowing the refs can't call fouls the whole game so they get away with a lot of fouls. Now there is less of a penalty to foul.
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Re: Rules Change

Postby BasketballMind » Tue May 16, 2023 12:38 pm

Considering the way the games are called now this is a bad move. Tournament time is going to be even uglier than it has been. The referees may not be told not to call fouls, but it comes off as they swallow their whistle to "let the players on the floor" decide it. What they don't seem to understand is that not calling fouls that are clearly fouls is deciding the game the same way calling too many is. Call the game tight early, call it consistent, and the players will adjust. It's not that hard of a concept but too many of them just let these kids hammer each other and then all the sudden start calling it tight.
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Re: Rules Change

Postby WalkingStick » Tue May 16, 2023 12:57 pm

BasketballMind wrote:Considering the way the games are called now this is a bad move. Tournament time is going to be even uglier than it has been. The referees may not be told not to call fouls, but it comes off as they swallow their whistle to "let the players on the floor" decide it. What they don't seem to understand is that not calling fouls that are clearly fouls is deciding the game the same way calling too many is. Call the game tight early, call it consistent, and the players will adjust. It's not that hard of a concept but too many of them just let these kids hammer each other and then all the sudden start calling it tight.


https://twitter.com/NDHSAA/status/16585 ... 73921?s=20
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Re: Rules Change

Postby BasketballMind » Tue May 16, 2023 1:41 pm

WalkingStick wrote:
BasketballMind wrote:Considering the way the games are called now this is a bad move. Tournament time is going to be even uglier than it has been. The referees may not be told not to call fouls, but it comes off as they swallow their whistle to "let the players on the floor" decide it. What they don't seem to understand is that not calling fouls that are clearly fouls is deciding the game the same way calling too many is. Call the game tight early, call it consistent, and the players will adjust. It's not that hard of a concept but too many of them just let these kids hammer each other and then all the sudden start calling it tight.


https://twitter.com/NDHSAA/status/16585 ... 73921?s=20


Yeah, I know. Officials apparently can't be critiqued without this cliche being thrown around. If there is a fundamental issue with the way they're being told (directly or indirectly) to officiate a game, it's okay to talk about it. What I said was at the very least offering a solution to the problem. This cannot be an out for a bad system in place. It's repeated every year about how the region and state tournaments don't resemble basketball anymore and the games are too rough.
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Re: Rules Change

Postby Thundersnow » Thu May 18, 2023 1:16 pm

Officials will be criticized after virtually every game by someone. If officials were to take BasketballMind's "solution to the problem" there would be outcries from people saying, "They called too many fouls! Player X got 2 fouls in the first 3 minutes and he never had a chance to impact the game!"

Maybe AI will become smart enough to take over all sports officiating and no one will ever complain again.
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Re: Rules Change

Postby BasketballMind » Fri May 19, 2023 9:13 am

Thundersnow wrote:Officials will be criticized after virtually every game by someone. If officials were to take BasketballMind's "solution to the problem" there would be outcries from people saying, "They called too many fouls! Player X got 2 fouls in the first 3 minutes and he never had a chance to impact the game!"

Maybe AI will become smart enough to take over all sports officiating and no one will ever complain again.


Not what I’m suggesting at all. Tell the players in the meeting before the game starts not to hand check on the perimeter, and in the post you can’t armbar a guy out of the post. Establish that as the way you’ll call the game. Call it that way the entire season. Teams will adjust, players will adjust. Then, and this is the most important factor, don’t bring in guys from the good old boys club that referee college basketball the majority of the winter to do your tournaments. But good job assuming and projecting.
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Re: Rules Change

Postby Thundersnow » Fri May 19, 2023 9:44 am

Ok, I completely support the way you laid that out. Transparency at the beginning of the season and consistency throughout the season would be awesome. I know they come out with "point(s) of emphasis" at the beginning of the year, but other than that, it seems like there is a lack in good communication between refs and coaches. I do like the overall idea of getting rid of the hand checks and armbars you mentioned.

As far as official selection for the tournaments, does anyone know the details of the selection criteria? I would suggest a minimum number of high school varsity games reffed throughout the season along with votes from coaches and other officials.
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Re: Rules Change

Postby The Schwab » Mon May 22, 2023 9:36 am

Thundersnow wrote:Ok, I completely support the way you laid that out. Transparency at the beginning of the season and consistency throughout the season would be awesome. I know they come out with "point(s) of emphasis" at the beginning of the year, but other than that, it seems like there is a lack in good communication between refs and coaches. I do like the overall idea of getting rid of the hand checks and armbars you mentioned.

As far as official selection for the tournaments, does anyone know the details of the selection criteria? I would suggest a minimum number of high school varsity games reffed throughout the season along with votes from coaches and other officials.


Member in good standing (have taken and passed (maybe?) the rules test), attended a clinic. Those used to be the rules anyway. Then coaches vote for post season officials
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Re: Rules Change

Postby BISONFAN18 » Tue May 23, 2023 8:14 pm

I am 100% in favor of these changes. After NCAA women adopted 4 quarters and the same double bonus set up, the flow of the game improved which led to increased scoring overall. This is a good thing for the game.
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Re: Rules Change

Postby BISONFAN18 » Tue May 23, 2023 8:19 pm

BasketballMind wrote:
Thundersnow wrote:Officials will be criticized after virtually every game by someone. If officials were to take BasketballMind's "solution to the problem" there would be outcries from people saying, "They called too many fouls! Player X got 2 fouls in the first 3 minutes and he never had a chance to impact the game!"

Maybe AI will become smart enough to take over all sports officiating and no one will ever complain again.


Not what I’m suggesting at all. Tell the players in the meeting before the game starts not to hand check on the perimeter, and in the post you can’t armbar a guy out of the post. Establish that as the way you’ll call the game. Call it that way the entire season. Teams will adjust, players will adjust. Then, and this is the most important factor, don’t bring in guys from the good old boys club that referee college basketball the majority of the winter to do your tournaments. But good job assuming and projecting.


Most pregame meetings with team captains cover stuff like this. About 10 years ago or so, the NFHS put out a POE that aimed to clean up hand checking, hip checking, and arm bars. This mirrored the NCAA POE from the year prior. The NCAA noticed lower scoring games due to restricted movement caused by overly physical play. Average scores increased as a result. I noticed a similar impact on high school due to the POE and introduction of the shot clock.

I cannot remember what year it was (before 2010) or who Dickenson Trinity played in the state title game, but that was the ugliest basketball game at that level I ever saw. It was then I hoped for something to change. It took a few years but someone finally did something about it.
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Re: Rules Change

Postby WalkingStick » Tue May 23, 2023 9:26 pm

BISONFAN18 wrote:
BasketballMind wrote:
Thundersnow wrote:Officials will be criticized after virtually every game by someone. If officials were to take BasketballMind's "solution to the problem" there would be outcries from people saying, "They called too many fouls! Player X got 2 fouls in the first 3 minutes and he never had a chance to impact the game!"

Maybe AI will become smart enough to take over all sports officiating and no one will ever complain again.


Not what I’m suggesting at all. Tell the players in the meeting before the game starts not to hand check on the perimeter, and in the post you can’t armbar a guy out of the post. Establish that as the way you’ll call the game. Call it that way the entire season. Teams will adjust, players will adjust. Then, and this is the most important factor, don’t bring in guys from the good old boys club that referee college basketball the majority of the winter to do your tournaments. But good job assuming and projecting.


Most pregame meetings with team captains cover stuff like this. About 10 years ago or so, the NFHS put out a POE that aimed to clean up hand checking, hip checking, and arm bars. This mirrored the NCAA POE from the year prior. The NCAA noticed lower scoring games due to restricted movement caused by overly physical play. Average scores increased as a result. I noticed a similar impact on high school due to the POE and introduction of the shot clock.

I cannot remember what year it was (before 2010) or who Dickenson Trinity played in the state title game, but that was the ugliest basketball game at that level I ever saw. It was then I hoped for something to change. It took a few years but someone finally did something about it.


I assume you are talking about the MPCG/DT game that ended up 34-32
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Re: Rules Change

Postby BISONFAN18 » Wed May 24, 2023 11:24 am

WalkingStick wrote:
BISONFAN18 wrote:
BasketballMind wrote:
Thundersnow wrote:Officials will be criticized after virtually every game by someone. If officials were to take BasketballMind's "solution to the problem" there would be outcries from people saying, "They called too many fouls! Player X got 2 fouls in the first 3 minutes and he never had a chance to impact the game!"

Maybe AI will become smart enough to take over all sports officiating and no one will ever complain again.


Not what I’m suggesting at all. Tell the players in the meeting before the game starts not to hand check on the perimeter, and in the post you can’t armbar a guy out of the post. Establish that as the way you’ll call the game. Call it that way the entire season. Teams will adjust, players will adjust. Then, and this is the most important factor, don’t bring in guys from the good old boys club that referee college basketball the majority of the winter to do your tournaments. But good job assuming and projecting.


Most pregame meetings with team captains cover stuff like this. About 10 years ago or so, the NFHS put out a POE that aimed to clean up hand checking, hip checking, and arm bars. This mirrored the NCAA POE from the year prior. The NCAA noticed lower scoring games due to restricted movement caused by overly physical play. Average scores increased as a result. I noticed a similar impact on high school due to the POE and introduction of the shot clock.

I cannot remember what year it was (before 2010) or who Dickenson Trinity played in the state title game, but that was the ugliest basketball game at that level I ever saw. It was then I hoped for something to change. It took a few years but someone finally did something about it.


I assume you are talking about the MPCG/DT game that ended up 34-32


That would be the one.
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