3 class system

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Re: 3 class system

Postby ndlionsfan » Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:53 pm

Flip wrote:There has to be a mistake on Standing Rock's enrollment. I'm not sure if their enrollment should be 580 or 290. I think it should be 580 though and that would put them in AA.


I noticed that, too. I would think it's a typo in the second column. I also noticed Standing Rock is listed twice on the list....the second time a little farther down in A
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Re: 3 class system

Postby ndlionsfan » Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:53 pm

Flip wrote:There has to be a mistake on Standing Rock's enrollment. I'm not sure if their enrollment should be 580 or 290. I think it should be 580 though and that would put them in AA.


I noticed that, too. I would think it's a typo in the second column. I also noticed Standing Rock is listed twice on the list....the second time a little farther down in A
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Re: 3 class system

Postby WalkingStick » Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:58 pm

OG doesn’t even have 200 from 9-12…maybe 6-12
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Re: 3 class system

Postby WalkingStick » Mon Aug 08, 2022 4:01 pm

leroybla wrote:Wow! Oak Grove has over 400 students? I had no idea.


OG at max has 175 kids 9-12 (still puts them in this division anyways)…which is impressive since tuition went up to around 13k
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Flip » Mon Aug 08, 2022 4:03 pm

I think it's grades 6-9. No idea why they chose those grades.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Sportsrube » Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:30 pm

Flip wrote:I think it's grades 6-9. No idea why they chose those grades.



Maybe because those students would be in HS when this plan goes into effect? If it goes into effect.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Flip » Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:12 pm

Sportsrube wrote:
Flip wrote:I think it's grades 6-9. No idea why they chose those grades.



Maybe because those students would be in HS when this plan goes into effect? If it goes into effect.

The plan is for it to start in 23-24.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby B-oldtimer » Tue Aug 09, 2022 10:22 pm

I hope it passes long over due and i wonder why sudden shift maybe has to do with participation numbers. I saw in there facts how numbers had dropped as high as 40% over the last twenty years. They also showed by adding class in American legion it had increased participation amazing people have been telling them for years but wouldn't listen. If there is opposition its going to come from class A ranks especially lower half enrollments they will not be big school competing against all others its going to be total reversal of situation for them.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby packers21 » Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:10 pm

B-oldtimer wrote:I hope it passes long over due and i wonder why sudden shift maybe has to do with participation numbers. I saw in there facts how numbers had dropped as high as 40% over the last twenty years. They also showed by adding class in American legion it had increased participation amazing people have been telling them for years but wouldn't listen. If there is opposition its going to come from class A ranks especially lower half enrollments they will not be big school competing against all others its going to be total reversal of situation for them.



I do not see any change helping participation numbers.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:44 pm

packers21, have always respected your opinion on this website, but have to ask a question. Following is your quote from the topic under boys thread:

packers21 wrote:
Mark my words if this passes VC and Wahp will become powerhouses. WC opts to stay up they want to be in the highest class. DL also needs to stay in the highest class, they’ve been plenty competitive. We’ll see the same 5/6 teams in the state A tourney that will have terrible attendance.

I would rather see the old northstar make a comeback.


Why hasn't Valley City been a powerhouse when playing against current class b teams in the past? Could it be that their program has suffered from lack of participation because of getting throttled most of the time? If they become a powerhouse, it would prove to me that the system would be working. Now give 40 other schools a chance to have schedules where they don't get blown out by 50. Have a chance to win games in district and regional tourneys and a chance for a state appearance. Perhaps their participation numbers go up as well.

Will agree that Wahpeton will probably be a powerhouse. Good program with numbers. However, 4 teams make it to the state tourney from each region in the proposed middle class. Not to mention, the schools in the proposed middle class, from top to bottom, have more in common town/team wise, than the current 2 class system from top top bottom.

Everyone gets so locked in to who is making it to state instead of looking at night in/night out competition. Getting the student/athletes participating again and rebuilding some of these programs.

Wasn't going to start debating this but would like for once that people read through the entire proposal a few times to completely understand it before posting negative comments that have always been part of the past excuses. I'm not singling you out by any means. But if you read through the comments, you will understand my point.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby packers21 » Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:53 pm

classB4ever wrote:packers21, have always respected your opinion on this website, but have to ask a question. Following is your quote from the topic under boys thread:

packers21 wrote:
Mark my words if this passes VC and Wahp will become powerhouses. WC opts to stay up they want to be in the highest class. DL also needs to stay in the highest class, they’ve been plenty competitive. We’ll see the same 5/6 teams in the state A tourney that will have terrible attendance.

I would rather see the old northstar make a comeback.


Why hasn't Valley City been a powerhouse when playing against current class b teams in the past? Could it be that their program has suffered from lack of participation because of getting throttled most of the time? If they become a powerhouse, it would prove to me that the system would be working. Now give 40 other schools a chance to have schedules where they don't get blown out by 50. Have a chance to win games in district and regional tourneys and a chance for a state appearance. Perhaps their participation numbers go up as well.

Will agree that Wahpeton will probably be a powerhouse. Good program with numbers. However, 4 teams make it to the state tourney from each region in the proposed middle class. Not to mention, the schools in the proposed middle class, from top to bottom, have more in common town/team wise, than the current 2 class system from top top bottom.

Everyone gets so locked in to who is making it to state instead of looking at night in/night out competition. Getting the student/athletes participating again and rebuilding some of these programs.

Wasn't going to start debating this but would like for once that people read through the entire proposal a few times to completely understand it before posting negative comments that have always been part of the past excuses. I'm not singling you out by any means. But if you read through the comments, you will understand my point.


I am fine being singled out, and I love talking basketball and discussing. I have read through the proposal multiple times. The kids that are going to play sports are going to play them no matter what, there are kids these days that just do not want to put in time and effort and it wont matter to them if they play on team that wins 20 games a year. Not sure on Valley City's numbers so I am not going to guess, but what happened 10 years ago when they moved down for a year?

I am not against a change in basketball, I do not hate this plan and if it passes I will still watch as much basketball as I can. There will still be plenty of 50 point games and you will have 2 state tournaments on the same weekend and I do no think you will have 2,000 ppl attend the A tournament.

It doesn't matter how many classes you have, the same problems are going to exist. I could tell you right now with 95% accuracy in B and 99% in A who would be going to state over and over again. Is that the end goal? No, but it should be a goal.

Do not let this plan fool you into think someone is out to save the little schools, this has been thrown out bc of who is on certain boards right now and its a better plan for the bigger schools and they small school just think it will work out better for them.

If you have a complaint about scheduling competitive games, schedule different opponents. Most schools have 6-10 games a season they can play anyone they want.
It is a little harder to motivate kids I guess because they’ve been pampered so much. We’re in the trophy generation, give ‘em a trophy for 23rd place, make ‘em feel good. Make mom and dad feel good.” Tom Izzo, Michigan State Basketball
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:28 pm

All fair points.

packers21 wrote:I am fine being singled out, and I love talking basketball and discussing. I have read through the proposal multiple times. The kids that are going to play sports are going to play them no matter what, there are kids these days that just do not want to put in time and effort and it wont matter to them if they play on team that wins 20 games a year.


You may be right. Think it might take a few years and some new blood in each of these programs to turn it around. Believe it's worth a shot.

packers21 wrote:I am not against a change in basketball, I do not hate this plan and if it passes I will still watch as much basketball as I can. There will still be plenty of 50 point games and you will have 2 state tournaments on the same weekend and I do no think you will have 2,000 ppl attend the A tournament.


50 point losses will occur but will bet it's reduced by 75%. As for the state tournaments, I agree if they keep them on the same weekend. That has to change. It automatically sets the proposal up for failure. It's bad for the fans, teams and in my opinion an economic disaster. Really makes no sense to me. However, if they figure out a way to get them on separate weekends, I will be attending both. Quit going to state tourneys about 5 years ago due to same old, same old. However, believe the middle class might turn in to the best division to watch for old school guys.

packers21 wrote:It doesn't matter how many classes you have, the same problems are going to exist. I could tell you right now with 95% accuracy in B and 99% in A who would be going to state over and over again. Is that the end goal? No, but it should be a goal.


Agree it's a goal. I'm a betting man, I will bet you cannot fulfill the predictions stated above the first year if it's passed. To make another bet, I will predict next year's class b tourney, but will be at >= 87.5%. :D

packers21 wrote:Do not let this plan fool you into think someone is out to save the little schools, this has been thrown out bc of who is on certain boards right now and its a better plan for the bigger schools and they small school just think it will work out better for them.


I hope you're wrong, but you may be right. Almost sounds like an old song.

packers21 wrote:If you have a complaint about scheduling competitive games, schedule different opponents. Most schools have 6-10 games a season they can play anyone they want.


Still have to play X many games in your district and region. Those turn out to be the most important games and generally against your biggest rivals. Getting smoked by the top teams each year kind of sets the tone for the district and region tourneys. Kind of deflating if you know what I mean.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby packers21 » Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:50 pm

classB4ever wrote:All fair points.

packers21 wrote:I am fine being singled out, and I love talking basketball and discussing. I have read through the proposal multiple times. The kids that are going to play sports are going to play them no matter what, there are kids these days that just do not want to put in time and effort and it wont matter to them if they play on team that wins 20 games a year.


You may be right. Think it might take a few years and some new blood in each of these programs to turn it around. Believe it's worth a shot.

packers21 wrote:I am not against a change in basketball, I do not hate this plan and if it passes I will still watch as much basketball as I can. There will still be plenty of 50 point games and you will have 2 state tournaments on the same weekend and I do no think you will have 2,000 ppl attend the A tournament.


50 point losses will occur but will bet it's reduced by 75%. As for the state tournaments, I agree if they keep them on the same weekend. That has to change. It automatically sets the proposal up for failure. It's bad for the fans, teams and in my opinion an economic disaster. Really makes no sense to me. However, if they figure out a way to get them on separate weekends, I will be attending both. Quit going to state tourneys about 5 years ago due to same old, same old. However, believe the middle class might turn in to the best division to watch for old school guys.

packers21 wrote:It doesn't matter how many classes you have, the same problems are going to exist. I could tell you right now with 95% accuracy in B and 99% in A who would be going to state over and over again. Is that the end goal? No, but it should be a goal.


Agree it's a goal. I'm a betting man, I will bet you cannot fulfill the predictions stated above the first year if it's passed. To make another bet, I will predict next year's class b tourney, but will be at >= 87.5%. :D

packers21 wrote:Do not let this plan fool you into think someone is out to save the little schools, this has been thrown out bc of who is on certain boards right now and its a better plan for the bigger schools and they small school just think it will work out better for them.


I hope you're wrong, but you may be right. Almost sounds like an old song.

packers21 wrote:If you have a complaint about scheduling competitive games, schedule different opponents. Most schools have 6-10 games a season they can play anyone they want.


Still have to play X many games in your district and region. Those turn out to be the most important games and generally against your biggest rivals. Getting smoked by the top teams each year kind of sets the tone for the district and region tourneys. Kind of deflating if you know what I mean.



I do think it passes, so we'll have to make our predictions.

Couple things that would make it better IMO.

NO privates in the lowest class.

State tournament date changes-one of the only things we agree on.

I would like to see the Class A regions split differently Fargo region is loaded, Minot region looks weak.

Do not love 2 teams from Class B regions going to state, wouldn't mind a sweet 16 version. This plan points out so much SD stuff why not follow it more. The most intense games in their seasons are the sweet 16.

I could go on and on.
Last edited by packers21 on Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Flip » Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:27 pm

Get it passed however it needs to get passed and then tweet every two years to try and improve it.

packers21 said it above that he'd like to see no privates in the middle class, does that mean AA or B? I was fine with going by a hard enrollment number and allowing opt-ups. There would be so much hatred towards OG, Shiloh, DT, and BR if they stayed in B.

BTW, is there anything to be said about opt-ups in the proposal?
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Re: 3 class system

Postby maddog1971 » Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:47 pm

I don't get the no Privates in the middle class... The whole reason this is even a thing and will get support is to get the private schools out of Class B. Otherwise forget about it.

Also the only way to change the amount of numbers of kids going out for basketball is to stop the Coop's. Break the coops up and you will have alot more kids going out for basketball.
Now I am not saying that will make for better basketball but if numbers are what we are trying to address.... don't worry about how good the teams are let everyone play and have fun.......
People are sick of seeing Grafton, LEM, Central Cass, Kindred, Thompson, Beulah, Shiloh, Oak Grove, Minot Ryan,Rubgy, Dickinson Trinity, Linton...

So let's really change the system... I will vote for it but you need to get a couple schools out of Class A that will get killed every year.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby packers21 » Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:57 pm

Flip wrote:Get it passed however it needs to get passed and then tweet every two years to try and improve it.

packers21 said it above that he'd like to see no privates in the middle class, does that mean AA or B? I was fine with going by a hard enrollment number and allowing opt-ups. There would be so much hatred towards OG, Shiloh, DT, and BR if they stayed in B.

BTW, is there anything to be said about opt-ups in the proposal?


I meant lowest class-Privates have to be middle class or higher. I will edit.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby WalkingStick » Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:50 pm

packers21 wrote:
Flip wrote:Get it passed however it needs to get passed and then tweet every two years to try and improve it.

packers21 said it above that he'd like to see no privates in the middle class, does that mean AA or B? I was fine with going by a hard enrollment number and allowing opt-ups. There would be so much hatred towards OG, Shiloh, DT, and BR if they stayed in B.

BTW, is there anything to be said about opt-ups in the proposal?


I meant lowest class-Privates have to be middle class or higher. I will edit.


Only one I’m fine with staying B is Williston Trinity…I can understand ORCS for now.

Is this 3 class system just for basketball purposes?? NDHSAA used to tie VB into it as well…
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Attack the Process » Sun Aug 14, 2022 9:32 pm

The only problem with this is that I can see the private schools filing a lawsuit. If that were to happen, it would drain the NDHSAA. Don't know if they can fight it and win, or if they would even want to fight it.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Sportsrube » Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:00 pm

Attack the Process wrote:The only problem with this is that I can see the private schools filing a lawsuit. If that were to happen, it would drain the NDHSAA. Don't know if they can fight it and win, or if they would even want to fight it.


I hope this passes because it will be better than what we have now. It can always be tweaked (like the football plan is constantly tweaked). I do agree with others about the state tournament issues though. Combining girls and boys at the same site works for Class A now, it should work for the middle and lower class as well. As for the lawsuit issue, I say let the Privates file it. Other states have it in their bylaws that no privates can be in the lowest class so I don't see why ND couldn't do it.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby WalkingStick » Sun Aug 14, 2022 11:31 pm

Sportsrube wrote:
Attack the Process wrote:The only problem with this is that I can see the private schools filing a lawsuit. If that were to happen, it would drain the NDHSAA. Don't know if they can fight it and win, or if they would even want to fight it.


I hope this passes because it will be better than what we have now. It can always be tweaked (like the football plan is constantly tweaked). I do agree with others about the state tournament issues though. Combining girls and boys at the same site works for Class A now, it should work for the middle and lower class as well. As for the lawsuit issue, I say let the Privates file it. Other states have it in their bylaws that no privates can be in the lowest class so I don't see why ND couldn't do it.


They have it in football in ND and no issues occurred when that happened.

I’m pro-private school (what they stand for and their education) but I think something close to this does need to happen soon…this plan may have too large of a middle class but again some tweaks to this plan and I think it will benefit the state. Opens up some fun shootout and non-region game ideas, in my eyes.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby maddog1971 » Mon Aug 15, 2022 9:18 am

I am all for Private schools as well..... If you want to send your kid to a private.. "God Bless You"

I had a great conversation with a couple Grover parents... And the one thing I hear all the time is that they send their kid to Oak Grove is for the environment, the morals and the education. They feel it is a safer, better environment for their kids to learn and grow. So my question is why do you care then what class they play in for sports?

But I am far from in favor for them playing in class B. No Private should play in B....The only reason I see this ever being a possibility is for this reason alone. So they have to play someone... so i agree... take the big B's and the Little A's and lets play some basketball.... BUT NO MINTO/ MIDWAY.... That is stupid.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Flip » Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:01 am

maddog1971 wrote:I am all for Private schools as well..... If you want to send your kid to a private.. "God Bless You"

I had a great conversation with a couple Grover parents... And the one thing I hear all the time is that they send their kid to Oak Grove is for the environment, the morals and the education. They feel it is a safer, better environment for their kids to learn and grow. So my question is why do you care then what class they play in for sports?

But I am far from in favor for them playing in class B. No Private should play in B....The only reason I see this ever being a possibility is for this reason alone. So they have to play someone... so i agree... take the big B's and the Little A's and lets play some basketball.... BUT NO MINTO/ MIDWAY.... That is stupid.

Because they want to see their kids succeed. It isn't complicated.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby maddog1971 » Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:12 pm

Flip wrote:
maddog1971 wrote:I am all for Private schools as well..... If you want to send your kid to a private.. "God Bless You"

I had a great conversation with a couple Grover parents... And the one thing I hear all the time is that they send their kid to Oak Grove is for the environment, the morals and the education. They feel it is a safer, better environment for their kids to learn and grow. So my question is why do you care then what class they play in for sports?

But I am far from in favor for them playing in class B. No Private should play in B....The only reason I see this ever being a possibility is for this reason alone. So they have to play someone... so i agree... take the big B's and the Little A's and lets play some basketball.... BUT NO MINTO/ MIDWAY.... That is stupid.

Because they want to see their kids succeed. It isn't complicated.

What would Jesus do?
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Re: 3 class system

Postby WalkingStick » Tue Aug 16, 2022 8:27 pm

maddog1971 wrote:
Flip wrote:
maddog1971 wrote:I am all for Private schools as well..... If you want to send your kid to a private.. "God Bless You"

I had a great conversation with a couple Grover parents... And the one thing I hear all the time is that they send their kid to Oak Grove is for the environment, the morals and the education. They feel it is a safer, better environment for their kids to learn and grow. So my question is why do you care then what class they play in for sports?

But I am far from in favor for them playing in class B. No Private should play in B....The only reason I see this ever being a possibility is for this reason alone. So they have to play someone... so i agree... take the big B's and the Little A's and lets play some basketball.... BUT NO MINTO/ MIDWAY.... That is stupid.

Because they want to see their kids succeed. It isn't complicated.


What would Jesus do?


No need to bring that question into the conversation.

I honestly don't think there would be much blow back if a system similar to football was used to determine the 3 classes. I just looked into how this 3 class proposal used enrollment and actually don't like it that much now.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Bison-Vikes #1 » Thu Aug 18, 2022 11:49 am

Believe in order for the 3-class proposal to pass, need to change from boy's A & B and girls' A & B playing on same weekend. Should be set up like existing A is currently playing with boys & girls on same weekend in same location. With that said, there are some logistical questions and would like to hear some input.

1. In order to finish the tournament in 3-days, need to have 2 gyms. How/where in Minot and Bismarck would that work?
2. A solution to the 2 gym problem would be to start the state tournament on Wednesday. 1 set of quarterfinals would be Wednesday, the 2nd set of quarterfinals would be Thursday. All could be televised increasing tv revenue. Now, in order to play out all the games a 2nd gym would still be needed for the consolation bracket. However all games in championship bracket could be televised from the main venue on Friday. Also, the 2 championship games on Saturday could be televised.
3. No 2nd gym would be needed at all if the tournament started on Wednesday and the consolation bracket was eliminated. All games could be played in the main venue. No 5th - 8th place games. This would help with hotel rooms as well as some fans would be leaving which would make room for other fans coming later to watch their teams in championship bracket.

Big question, how many schools/fans would oppose having the state tournament starting on a Wednesday?
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