d_fense wrote:BISONFAN18 wrote:packers21 wrote:justplayalready wrote:
Can either of you, without using google, give a very basic explanation of the rules relating to legal guarding position, incidental contact, and player control fouls?
I'll tackle this one.
Legal guarding position. I like to think of it as being in an athletic stance. (Good posture, not leaning, feet can't be to far apart). You can definitely be moving.
Incidental contact. Contact that does not create an advantage is allowed. This is were judgement totally come into play. You asked to not go into definitions, so I will not. But, incidental isn't a good word to use. Contact whether intention or not is a foul if it creates and advantage. If I am bumping player A when he is bring the ball up the court and it doesn't affect him, it isn't a foul. If I give the same contact to player B when he is bring the ball up the court and it is clearly creating an advantage for me, it should be a foul. That is where judgement come into play.
Player control fouls Ok, I get mad when people say things that just are not true. So I must state that I am not 100% on this one. My understanding is, a player control fouls is when the offensive player (who has the ball) commits' a foul, such as charging. When this happens a personal foul is counted against him, but regardless of the number of team fouls, no free throws are awarded, only possession of the ball. I want to say that I have seen player control fouls called against offensive players who have not had possession of the ball though. An example would be a push away from the ball. Like I said, i am not certain on this.
packers21 wrote:My not calling the flop or the block the official is still giving the advantage to the defense and now the offensive player is in a rough spot with someone on the ground by their feet and ankles increasing the chance of Injury.
There have been some interesting calls in this tournament but I think it’s been called pretty dang good. Some really questionable calls in the afternoon games on Friday.
WalkingStick wrote:I think too many officials enjoy making the charge call and make it at wrong times.
Also, a reminder that most tend to forget (fans & officials); you CAN take a charge in the restricted arc but ONLY if you are the primary defender.
d_fense wrote:[b]packers21 wrote:[[b]/b]My not calling the flop or the block the official is still giving the advantage to the defense and now the offensive player is in a rough spot with someone on the ground by their feet and ankles increasing the chance of Injury. [/b]
100% disagree. In no way does not calling a flop or block give the advantage to the defense. I don't see your point at all. The offensive player can still drive to the basket, shoot with no hand in his face, or pass the ball with very little chance of his defender creating any problem. Once the defender is on the ground, they are not in a legal defensive position. If the offensive player trips, 100% foul on defender since he is not in a legal position. Or pass the ball and cut to the basket. What offensive player would not like for his defender to have to start from a seated position?
I also agree with BisionFan18. There should be more charges called. I always tell my players you are not being aggressive enough until you have had 2 charges called on you in a game. That is not two on my team. It is two on every player. When the refs default is going against the defense, why wouldn't you take advantage of that?
packers21 wrote:d_fense wrote:[b]packers21 wrote:[[b]/b]My not calling the flop or the block the official is still giving the advantage to the defense and now the offensive player is in a rough spot with someone on the ground by their feet and ankles increasing the chance of Injury. [/b]
100% disagree. In no way does not calling a flop or block give the advantage to the defense. I don't see your point at all. The offensive player can still drive to the basket, shoot with no hand in his face, or pass the ball with very little chance of his defender creating any problem. Once the defender is on the ground, they are not in a legal defensive position. If the offensive player trips, 100% foul on defender since he is not in a legal position. Or pass the ball and cut to the basket. What offensive player would not like for his defender to have to start from a seated position?
I also agree with BisionFan18. There should be more charges called. I always tell my players you are not being aggressive enough until you have had 2 charges called on you in a game. That is not two on my team. It is two on every player. When the refs default is going against the defense, why wouldn't you take advantage of that?
We are are trying to take a charge, create contact with the offense fall on the ground by there feet and its a no call, you are telling me that isn't an advantage to the defense? There should almost never be a no call when these kids are flopping all over the place.
WalkingStick wrote:I think too many officials enjoy making the charge call and make it at wrong times.
Also, a reminder that most tend to forget (fans & officials); you CAN take a charge in the restricted arc but ONLY if you are the primary defender.
The Schwab wrote:WalkingStick wrote:I think too many officials enjoy making the charge call and make it at wrong times.
Also, a reminder that most tend to forget (fans & officials); you CAN take a charge in the restricted arc but ONLY if you are the primary defender.
This is true, I saw this rule incorrectly interpreted during one of the afternoon games (I believe on Friday). There was a fast break where the offensive team was in an advantage situation and they called a charge in the restricted arc. In an advantage situation for the offense there is no primary defender, therefore, it should have been a block.
UncleRico wrote:packers21 wrote:d_fense wrote:[b]packers21 wrote:[[b]/b]My not calling the flop or the block the official is still giving the advantage to the defense and now the offensive player is in a rough spot with someone on the ground by their feet and ankles increasing the chance of Injury. [/b]
100% disagree. In no way does not calling a flop or block give the advantage to the defense. I don't see your point at all. The offensive player can still drive to the basket, shoot with no hand in his face, or pass the ball with very little chance of his defender creating any problem. Once the defender is on the ground, they are not in a legal defensive position. If the offensive player trips, 100% foul on defender since he is not in a legal position. Or pass the ball and cut to the basket. What offensive player would not like for his defender to have to start from a seated position?
I also agree with BisionFan18. There should be more charges called. I always tell my players you are not being aggressive enough until you have had 2 charges called on you in a game. That is not two on my team. It is two on every player. When the refs default is going against the defense, why wouldn't you take advantage of that?
We are are trying to take a charge, create contact with the offense fall on the ground by there feet and its a no call, you are telling me that isn't an advantage to the defense? There should almost never be a no call when these kids are flopping all over the place.
Much of this stuff is worth discussing, but the embellishment and flopping is a disgrace to the sport, IMO. If an offensive player lowers his shoulder and delivers a blow, then it should be an offensive foul. If he extends his off arm to gain an advantage, it should be a charge. But just because a defender kinda jumps into the ballhandler's path, throws his arms/head back, and slides 15 feet backwards across the floor does not make it a charge. Same with the flop on the block. You're telling me you a similar sized kid knocked his defender flat on his back and across the lane? Come on. If the offensive player actually runs him over or clears him out, so be it, but stop rewarding the flop. The embellished flop charge needs to stop being called, or the issue will continue to get worse. And it's getting much worse. Just my .02.
At the same time, I feel for today's refs because now the kids are doing this stuff constantly. It's gotta be a pain to try to call on the fly.
d_fense wrote:When you are are trying to take a charge, create contact with the offense fall on the ground by there feet and its a no call, you are telling me that isn't an advantage to the defense? There should almost never be a no call when these kids are flopping all over the place.
packers21 wrote:d_fense wrote:When you are are trying to take a charge, create contact with the offense fall on the ground by there feet and its a no call, you are telling me that isn't an advantage to the defense? There should almost never be a no call when these kids are flopping all over the place.
Exactly. I am saying a defender on his butt or back is not an advantage for the defense.
packers21 wrote:d_fense wrote:When you are are trying to take a charge, create contact with the offense fall on the ground by there feet and its a no call, you are telling me that isn't an advantage to the defense? There should almost never be a no call when these kids are flopping all over the place.
Exactly. I am saying a defender on his butt or back is not an advantage for the defense.
d_fense wrote:packers21 wrote:d_fense wrote:When you are are trying to take a charge, create contact with the offense fall on the ground by there feet and its a no call, you are telling me that isn't an advantage to the defense? There should almost never be a no call when these kids are flopping all over the place.
Exactly. I am saying a defender on his butt or back is not an advantage for the defense.
Sooo hear me out, this defender has now already created contact with the offensive player resulting in a no call and now them laying on the ground by the feet and ankles of the offensive player has created no advantage of the defense?
ndlionsfan wrote:I don't see how a defensive player on the floor is an advantage for the defense. Like already stated, if an offensive player trips over that player on the floor it is an obvious foul as they are not in legal guarding position. If no contact is made, the offense essentially has a 5-on-4 opportunity for scoring, rebounding, etc.
ndlionsfan wrote:I don't see how a defensive player on the floor is an advantage for the defense. Like already stated, if an offensive player trips over that player on the floor it is an obvious foul as they are not in legal guarding position. If no contact is made, the offense essentially has a 5-on-4 opportunity for scoring, rebounding, etc.
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