3 class system

[Bison-Vikes #1]

There are a lot of people that think a 3-class system will never happen. They may be right, but one thing I'm quite sure of is we will not go to a hybrid system.

Fair enough. Explanation why? It seems to address every single complaint.

It is just too out of the box if that makes any sense. I think we would be the first state to have any type of hybrid state tournament. ND isn't that much of a trendsetter.

You got me on that one and yes, it does make sense.

[classB4ever]

There are a lot of people that think a 3-class system will never happen. They may be right, but one thing I'm quite sure of is we will not go to a hybrid system.

Fair enough. Explanation why? It seems to address every single complaint.

It is just too out of the box if that makes any sense. I think we would be the first state to have any type of hybrid state tournament. ND isn't that much of a trendsetter.

Believe Delaware, Hawaii and ND are only 3 states left with 2 classes. Delaware only plays 1 tournament at the end of the year. Kentucky is 1 class. Believe Kentucky has a midseason state championship for smaller schools then 1 overall state championship at the end of the year.

From 2019 numbers, the average number of classes for boy's basketball in US high schools was 5. Using the population of each state divided by the number of classes, ND was the 13th lowest in population per class. ND is the 4th lowest in total population followed by Alaska, Vermont and Wyoming who all have 4 classes. Of course, ND would still be higher than those 3 in population/class if they went to 3 classes. (*Note - since high school enrollments are very hard to find, assuming student:population ratio remains about the same for this discussion)

Addressing ND not being a trendsetter, if you study high school basketball class systems across the US, it is amazing what you will find. There are approximately 25 states that use some type of multiplier, success ratio or other means to determine classes or to classify between private/parochial and public schools. There are many different formats for state tournaments as well. For instance, New Jersey has multiple state champions and bring them all together for Tournament of Champions. I don't think ND would be setting any trends by going with the above proposed system.

There are problems in our current 2 class system. My biggest issue in class b basketball is the lack of parity in each region (generally top 2 teams vs. the field), participation numbers dwindling and the fact the class b state tournament has become predictable. If there is a system that would remedy those problems and most likely make for a better end of the year product (tournaments), why wouldn't it make sense to give it a shot?

[Bison-Vikes #1]

There is a conversation going on in another thread concerning media coverage of class b sports. Does it surprise anybody about the lack of coverage? General consensus of large town dwellers is rural folks are hicks. It explains a lot about the NDHSAA as well. They have lost touch with the majority of their members. The class b tourney might be their cash cow, but I don’t believe they give a rats a$$ about small schools and their students. Believe the NDHSAA brings in just over $2.3 million in revenue. Although we are one of the lowest populated states- our activities association’s revenue is one of the highest. Their expenditures are around $2.1 million. If what I read is correct, approximately $1.2 million is paid in salaries and benefits to their 9 employees. That means a 501c 3 nonprofit is spending over half their revenue running the organization. Just like politicians running our country and the media lying for them, maybe the NDHSAA should start listening a bit more to their constituents.

[Baller]

There is a conversation going on in another thread concerning media coverage of class b sports. Does it surprise anybody about the lack of coverage? General consensus of large town dwellers is rural folks are hicks. It explains a lot about the NDHSAA as well. They have lost touch with the majority of their members. The class b tourney might be their cash cow, but I don’t believe they give a rats a$$ about small schools and their students. Believe the NDHSAA brings in just over $2.3 million in revenue. Although we are one of the lowest populated states- our activities association’s revenue is one of the highest. Their expenditures are around $2.1 million. If what I read is correct, approximately $1.2 million is paid in salaries and benefits to their 9 employees. That means a 501 3c nonprofit is spending over half their revenue running the organization. Just like politicians running our country and the media lying for them, maybe the NDHSAA should start listening a bit more to their constituents.

Not sure where you get 1.2 Million.....If your figures are correct, that leave $200,000 for 9 employees which is an average of $22,222 per year per person....

[Flip]

wouldn't salaried employees count as an expense?

[Bison-Vikes #1]

There is a conversation going on in another thread concerning media coverage of class b sports. Does it surprise anybody about the lack of coverage? General consensus of large town dwellers is rural folks are hicks. It explains a lot about the NDHSAA as well. They have lost touch with the majority of their members. The class b tourney might be their cash cow, but I don’t believe they give a rats a$$ about small schools and their students. Believe the NDHSAA brings in just over $2.3 million in revenue. Although we are one of the lowest populated states- our activities association’s revenue is one of the highest. Their expenditures are around $2.1 million. If what I read is correct, approximately $1.1 million is paid in salaries and benefits to their 9 employees. That means a 501c 3 nonprofit is spending over half their revenue running the organization. Just like politicians running our country and the media lying for them, maybe the NDHSAA should start listening a bit more to their constituents.

Not sure where you get 1.2 Million.....If your figures are correct, that leave $200,000 for 9 employees which is an average of $22,222 per year per person....

It was $860k for 9 employees which is around $96k per employee. The other $320k is for miscellaneous expenses. $841k in other expenses. Figures were found here:

https://www.causeiq.com/organizations/n ... 450229318/

[Bisonguy06]

Watford city girls play Century today for the WDA championship. I’m just wondering where this group sees that fitting into the larger three class narrative.

[Flip]

Watford city girls play Century today for the WDA championship. I’m just wondering where this group sees that fitting into the larger three class narrative.

They would be the favorite in the middle class.

Watford City boys just finished their season 0-21. Giving up 94.5 points per game.

[Bisonguy06]

That’s another way of saying that the Watford boys would be non-contenders in a middle class or in class B Region 8.

[ndlionsfan]

Looked at the championships and the region qualifier games in Class A from this past weekend. 18 of the 24 teams involved in boys and girls were from Fargo or Bismarck. Sprinkle in a DL, Whap, Jamestown x 2, and WC and there is not much balance in Class A either. I think a few of those Class A teams coming down could really add a nice middle class.

[Flip]

24 teams?

[ndlionsfan]

24 teams?

Region Champ plus 2 region qualifier games for East/West and Boys/Girls

Looking at the state tourney for each, you essentially have 2 "small" school (DL and WC) out of the 16 possible. A person could count Shanley as small as well, but they are also located in Fargo.

[Flip]

isn't that 12?

[ndlionsfan]

isn't that 12?

6 teams for each region tournament x 2 regions (east/west) x 2 for boys/girls

[ndlionsfan]

Just did a quick count at the start of the region quarterfinals for boys tonight. 20 of the 64 teams are what I'd classify as big schools or privates. 31% to start out. Will be interesting to see what percent is on region champ night.

[Flip]

you're right
(glad people get to read that exchange)

[The Schwab]

Just did a quick count at the start of the region quarterfinals for boys tonight. 20 of the 64 teams are what I'd classify as big schools or privates. 31% to start out. Will be interesting to see what percent is on region champ night.

My prediction is that 16 of the 32 semi finalists and 9 of the 16 finalists will be big/privates, considering that region 3, 5 and 8 have one each. That's a pretty alarming number IMO

[ndlionsfan]

In another thread someone mentioned there are just not enough middle class teams out west to justify a third class. I did a quick enrollment research from DPI and sorted their excel sheet based on 8-11 current enrollment.

There's a clear cutoff after Jamestown in both enrollment and success at the Class A level. Take away DL's recent success in GBB, when was the last time Whap, VC, WC, and Turtle Mtn had sustained success at the A level? Using 600 as that cutoff I went down to both 200 and 150. 150-600 had 27 teams split 50/50 on east/west depending on where you put teams like Botno, Dunseith, Turtle Mtn. I put them in the west since TM plays in the West in A. 200-600 had 17 teams again with a 50/50 split east/west. All very doable. This does not include any private schools, just public as it was easy to find enrollment data.

[Flip]

Give the middle class a low number of teams, 24. You put them in an East and a West region. Those state qualifying games would be intense.

[ndlionsfan]

Give the middle class a low number of teams, 24. You put them in an East and a West region. Those state qualifying games would be intense.

I agree. I think it would be highly competitive and a great division of basketball in both boys/girls.

I'd like to see 18 in the top class, 24 in the middle (even though 32 might be the most convenient), and the rest in the lowest division. Don't set it by enrollment. Have 3 separate weekends of tournaments, just like they do now but combine boys/girls like the super A. Spread the lowest division out of 4 days instead of 3 and you'd see a great turnout for those games.

[justplayalready]

Just did a quick count at the start of the region quarterfinals for boys tonight. 20 of the 64 teams are what I'd classify as big schools or privates. 31% to start out. Will be interesting to see what percent is on region champ night.

What is the % of bigs or privates that aren't playing tonight?

[The Schwab]

Class AA: 14

East (7)
Sheyenne
West Fargo
Davies
Grand Forks Central
Fargo North
Grand Forks Red River
Fargo South

West (7)
Dickinson
Jamestown
Minot
Bismarck
Bismarck Legacy
Bismarck Century
Mandan

Class A: 31

East (15)
Fargo Shanley
Devils Lake
Valley City
Wahpeton
Central Cass
Kindred
Lisbon
Oak Grove
Oakes
HCV
Northern Cass
Grafton
Carrington
Thompson
Langdon-Edmore-Munich
Four Winds Minnewaukan

West: (16)
St. Marys
Watford City
Turtle Mountain
DLB
New Town
Stanley
Rugby
Nedrose
Bishop Ryan
South Prairie
Beulah
Heart River
Hazen
Shiloh
Trinity
Standing Rock

Class B: 71

North East (18)
Cavalier
DVE
FSHP
HN
MPCG
MM
North Border
PRFL
Benson County
TGU
DA
Dakota Prairie
North Star
HWC
Lakota
New Rockford
Warwick
Griggs Midkota

South East (17)
Enderlin
Hankinson
Maple Valley
Richland
Sargent County
Tri State
WL
EKM
Ellendale
BCN
LLM
Kidder County
Linton
MPB
Napoleon
South Border
Strasburg Zeeland

South West (18)
Center Stanton
Central McLean
Garrison
Max
Washburn
Wilton Wing
Flasher
Grant County
NSA
Solen
Mandaree
Beach
Glen Ullin Hebron
Hettinger Scranton
Mott-Regent
New England
Richardton Taylor
Bowman

North West (18)
Velva
Westhope Newburg
Glenburn
Berthold
MLS
Surrey
Alexander
NSP
Parshall
Trenton
White Shield
Trinity Christian
Bowbells/Burke Central
Divide County
Kenmare
Powers Lake
Ray
Tioga

Here's my idea for a 3 class system, with a breakdown (might be some schools missing, did it quickly)

[ndlionsfan]

Just did a quick count at the start of the region quarterfinals for boys tonight. 20 of the 64 teams are what I'd classify as big schools or privates. 31% to start out. Will be interesting to see what percent is on region champ night.

What is the % of bigs or privates that aren't playing tonight?

Using about 200 for HS enrollment is what I used for the big cutoff. If a school was at 195, I still counted them as big. Using that same method of what I got the 20 teams in regionals as big/private there are only 2 teams that fall in that category not still playing (DLB and New Town). All private schools are still playing. So 9% of bigs/privates have been eliminated.

In contrast 38/82 "small" schools have been eliminated for 46%

[Bisonguy06]

In another thread someone mentioned there are just not enough middle class teams out west to justify a third class. I did a quick enrollment research from DPI and sorted their excel sheet based on 8-11 current enrollment.

There's a clear cutoff after Jamestown in both enrollment and success at the Class A level. Take away DL's recent success in GBB, when was the last time Whap, VC, WC, and Turtle Mtn had sustained success at the A level? Using 600 as that cutoff I went down to both 200 and 150. 150-600 had 27 teams split 50/50 on east/west depending on where you put teams like Botno, Dunseith, Turtle Mtn. I put them in the west since TM plays in the West in A. 200-600 had 17 teams again with a 50/50 split east/west. All very doable. This does not include any private schools, just public as it was easy to find enrollment data.

Please provide a sample of schools with enrollment in the 150’s that you’d be content to move up and out of B to group with Turtle Mountain, Devils Lake ect at enrollment 600.

[Bisonguy06]

I’ve said that North Dakota’s middle is small, and perhaps too small to justify a third class.

I’d like simple answers to these questions:

How many schools have 9-12 enrollment between 250 and 750?
How many schools have 9-12 enrollment between 200 and 600?

Or, show me any grouping of schools in the middle with no more than a 3x enrollment gap from top to bottom. I think you need minimum 16 schools, but I’d entertain a middle as small as 12.