3 class system

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Re: 3 class system

Postby BasketballMind » Fri Jan 29, 2021 10:37 am

B Historian wrote:
Flip wrote:
B Historian wrote:Also, I never see this talked about, but I think the shot clock has made the parity issues worse in Class B. Sure, the shot clock is fine when teams like Enderlin and Four Winds play, but for the 90% of the rest of these schools it doesn't make sense. It's just logical that a team with less shooters and athletes is going to play worse basketball with the shot clock. I am shocked at the number of games this season with teams scoring in the 20's. The Utopian vision of 80-78 scores in Class B every night has not materialized.


I think the parity issues have got worse in the shot clock era, but I don't think it is due to the shot clock. Teams that are scoring in the 20s wouldn't be scoring in the 30s if they took away the shot clock IMO. How many teams lack shooters and athletes, but have competent ball-handling and passing to hang on to the ball for 35 seconds? I'd say very few.


The shot clock has forced all teams to play the same style. Teams that would be better off slowing it down or trying to run something more patterned on offense are forced to play at a pace they may not be comfortable with. With the shot clock, teams take the first somewhat open shot they can get. This doesn't lead to good basketball and makes the less talented teams even worse compared to the teams they are playing. I watch a lot of HS basketball in another state that doesn't have the shot clock. The games have a much more natural flow to them and coaching/strategy play a larger role when there is no shot clock.


"I don't like the shot clock because bad teams can't sit on the ball and play keep away for entire quarters anymore."

I respect the coaches that took advantage of not having to shoot quick to win games when the rules allowed it, but that isn't basketball. Teams with fewer shooters and athletes are going to play worse basketball. Uhh, ya think? Taking away a shot clock isn't going to make them better. Getting in the gym in the spring, summer and fall might. What the shot clock does is it makes teams play basketball from start to finish. There used to be a time when you'd see a team up by 5-6 points with 3 minutes to go and the team with the lead would force teams to start fouling or they'd run 40, 50, and 60 seconds off the clock. Call it strategy, I call it playing 10-man pig in the middle, not basketball. You can still control the flow of the game, run a continuity offense for 15-20 seconds and then go on the attack. It's all coaching at that point.

I also don't see many shot clock violations, and if teams are jacking up a shot the first time they get one, taking a shot clock away isn't going to change that. Teach your kids to have an attack first mentality and look for lay-ups or rhythm shots. This idea that the shot clock is preventing that is ridiculous. State and Region tournaments have gotten better considerably since the shot clock was implemented.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby GOPACKGO!!! » Mon Feb 01, 2021 4:55 pm

I personally don't think schools would combine so easily if they didn't have to try and compete with the burbs. There are students that would like to play but when schools combine there is less playing time. This also would help to maintain the number of teams in a given area and travel wouldn't be an issue unless the school wanted to travel greater distances for competition.
There is also a revenue point to make. If we had three tourneys it would also generate more revenue in the state.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby B Historian » Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:00 pm

BasketballMind wrote:
B Historian wrote:
Flip wrote:
B Historian wrote:Also, I never see this talked about, but I think the shot clock has made the parity issues worse in Class B. Sure, the shot clock is fine when teams like Enderlin and Four Winds play, but for the 90% of the rest of these schools it doesn't make sense. It's just logical that a team with less shooters and athletes is going to play worse basketball with the shot clock. I am shocked at the number of games this season with teams scoring in the 20's. The Utopian vision of 80-78 scores in Class B every night has not materialized.


I think the parity issues have got worse in the shot clock era, but I don't think it is due to the shot clock. Teams that are scoring in the 20s wouldn't be scoring in the 30s if they took away the shot clock IMO. How many teams lack shooters and athletes, but have competent ball-handling and passing to hang on to the ball for 35 seconds? I'd say very few.


The shot clock has forced all teams to play the same style. Teams that would be better off slowing it down or trying to run something more patterned on offense are forced to play at a pace they may not be comfortable with. With the shot clock, teams take the first somewhat open shot they can get. This doesn't lead to good basketball and makes the less talented teams even worse compared to the teams they are playing. I watch a lot of HS basketball in another state that doesn't have the shot clock. The games have a much more natural flow to them and coaching/strategy play a larger role when there is no shot clock.


"I don't like the shot clock because bad teams can't sit on the ball and play keep away for entire quarters anymore."

I respect the coaches that took advantage of not having to shoot quick to win games when the rules allowed it, but that isn't basketball. Teams with fewer shooters and athletes are going to play worse basketball. Uhh, ya think? Taking away a shot clock isn't going to make them better. Getting in the gym in the spring, summer and fall might. What the shot clock does is it makes teams play basketball from start to finish. There used to be a time when you'd see a team up by 5-6 points with 3 minutes to go and the team with the lead would force teams to start fouling or they'd run 40, 50, and 60 seconds off the clock. Call it strategy, I call it playing 10-man pig in the middle, not basketball. You can still control the flow of the game, run a continuity offense for 15-20 seconds and then go on the attack. It's all coaching at that point.


Have you looked at all the facts?

1. The NFHS determined that the average possession time in a HS basketball game is about 15 seconds.

2. There are 40 states that do not have a shot clock and HS basketball is still wildly successful and popular in those states. It's obviously not a minority opinion to be against a shot clock.

3. I believe it was AZ a couple of years ago that decided to run a big high school holiday tournament as a shot clock experiment. They determined that the shot clock shortened average possession times by one second compared to games with no shot clock. Not worth the investment or change to the game to add the clock.

4. Since the inception of the shot clock in ND Class B basketball, scoring is up about 3 points per game across the state in region tournaments in comparison to the 6 years prior to the shot clock. Scoring in the state tournament has actually DECREASED 1.5 points per game over the same time period.

Region and state tournament games involve the best teams in the state and the most talented players and yet there has been virtually no change in scoring. Maybe there are more possessions, but if scoring doesn't increase with a shot clock that means there are more turnovers and/or poorer shooting. Maybe it's just me, but I would rather watch a 56-54 game with both teams playing good team basketball and shooting 50% then watch a game with the same score but with some rushed possessions and 38% shooting.

I also don't see many shot clock violations, and if teams are jacking up a shot the first time they get one, taking a shot clock away isn't going to change that. Teach your kids to have an attack first mentality and look for lay-ups or rhythm shots. This idea that the shot clock is preventing that is ridiculous. State and Region tournaments have gotten better considerably since the shot clock was implemented.


I don't see many shot clock violations either. What I do see a lot of is Team A running a passive 3/4 court press to delay Team B from getting its offense set up. By the time the ball is across half court and everyone in position to run offense, Team B is down to 24 seconds on the shot clock. They make 3-4 passes and then when the clock gets to about 12 seconds and no open shot, you start to see ill advised drives to the basket, forced 3-pointers etc. Basketball has a flow to it and if it takes a HS team more than 35 seconds on occasion to get a good shot, then I'm all for it. Not every team should be forced to play at the same pace, especially when it's already been shown that it doesn't lead to a big bump in scoring.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Flip » Mon Feb 01, 2021 11:16 pm

GOPACKGO!!! wrote:I personally don't think schools would combine so easily if they didn't have to try and compete with the burbs. There are students that would like to play but when schools combine there is less playing time. This also would help to maintain the number of teams in a given area and travel wouldn't be an issue unless the school wanted to travel greater distances for competition.
There is also a revenue point to make. If we had three tourneys it would also generate more revenue in the state.

I've asked this before, who are the schools that cooped to compete with the bigger schools or private schools? I had a poster DM two schools that I was unfamiliar with the last time I asked. In almost every instance one of the schools was short on players.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby BasketballMind » Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:46 am

B Historian wrote:
Have you looked at all the facts?

1. The NFHS determined that the average possession time in a HS basketball game is about 15 seconds.

2. There are 40 states that do not have a shot clock and HS basketball is still wildly successful and popular in those states. It's obviously not a minority opinion to be against a shot clock.

3. I believe it was AZ a couple of years ago that decided to run a big high school holiday tournament as a shot clock experiment. They determined that the shot clock shortened average possession times by one second compared to games with no shot clock. Not worth the investment or change to the game to add the clock.

4. Since the inception of the shot clock in ND Class B basketball, scoring is up about 3 points per game across the state in region tournaments in comparison to the 6 years prior to the shot clock. Scoring in the state tournament has actually DECREASED 1.5 points per game over the same time period.

Region and state tournament games involve the best teams in the state and the most talented players and yet there has been virtually no change in scoring. Maybe there are more possessions, but if scoring doesn't increase with a shot clock that means there are more turnovers and/or poorer shooting. Maybe it's just me, but I would rather watch a 56-54 game with both teams playing good team basketball and shooting 50% then watch a game with the same score but with some rushed possessions and 38% shooting.

I also don't see many shot clock violations, and if teams are jacking up a shot the first time they get one, taking a shot clock away isn't going to change that. Teach your kids to have an attack first mentality and look for lay-ups or rhythm shots. This idea that the shot clock is preventing that is ridiculous. State and Region tournaments have gotten better considerably since the shot clock was implemented.


I don't see many shot clock violations either. What I do see a lot of is Team A running a passive 3/4 court press to delay Team B from getting its offense set up. By the time the ball is across half court and everyone in position to run offense, Team B is down to 24 seconds on the shot clock. They make 3-4 passes and then when the clock gets to about 12 seconds and no open shot, you start to see ill advised drives to the basket, forced 3-pointers etc. Basketball has a flow to it and if it takes a HS team more than 35 seconds on occasion to get a good shot, then I'm all for it. Not every team should be forced to play at the same pace, especially when it's already been shown that it doesn't lead to a big bump in scoring.


I don't want to go back to games that are in the 30s because teams consistently run 40, 50, and 60 seconds off the game clock because there's no pressure to shoot. They're not looking to score or beat their opponent. Bad teams play stall ball to "win" and people drool over it because they talk about discipline. Obviously it takes time for players to adjust. If the shot clock is so bad, then why doesn't class A take it out to improve the quality of play? The ends of games forces players to play and coaches to coach.

You can also strategize to get a 2-for-1 at the end of quarters and run a quick hitter with 50 or so seconds left, try to get a stop and get another shot off. Bad teams shouldn't be rewarded because they are able to sit on the ball and not play the game. Ball control and stalling are two different things. And if a team can't break a passive 3/4 press and get a good shot with a shot clock, taking it away isn't going to help them dribble and pass. Any kid that aspires to play basketball after high school will have to play with a shot clock, against other kids that grew up playing with it. You've gotta adapt with the times or you'll get left behind
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Flip » Tue Feb 02, 2021 11:31 am

BasketballMind wrote:Any kid that aspires to play basketball after high school will have to play with a shot clock, against other kids that grew up playing with it. You've gotta adapt with the times or you'll get left behind

I'm pro shot clock, but this has always been a bad argument for it. Most states don't have a shot clock so when there is a good chance in college the other players didn't grow up having one. There was a mod, baseball, that went on to play college basketball and said there was basically no adjustment from HS to college with regards to a shot clock. We should pull HS freshman and ask what the biggest adjustment from JH to HS is. I wonder where the shot clock would fall on the list.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:17 pm

There are time rules for a reason:
1. 3 seconds in the lane: Prevents big teams from camping out and dominating paint.
2. 5 seconds to inbound: Rewards good defense.
3. 10 seconds backcourt: Rewards good defense.
4. 5 seconds closely guarded: Rewards good defense.
5. 10 seconds free throw: Game flow.

I am old school as well, but all of these time rules were installed to enhance the game. IMHO, the shot clock is the reason Class A bb is much more exciting than it was in the 90's. However, each of those teams are much deeper and more athletic. There are pros and cons for all rules. Guessing shot clock is here to stay so coaches should teach accordingly. I can think of only a handful of games over 50 years in which stall ball worked to keep an inferior team close to or beating a superior team. However, some of them go down as classics.
Last edited by classB4ever on Tue Feb 02, 2021 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Sportsrube » Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:39 pm

After all of the money invested in shot clock systems in every school in ND that has a basketball team, the shot clock is here to stay. Like it or not you need to learn to live with it, it is not going away.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Tue Feb 02, 2021 3:24 pm

classB4ever wrote:There are time rules for a reason:
1. 3 seconds in the lane: Prevents big teams from camping out and dominating paint.
2. 5 seconds to inbound: Rewards good defense.
3. 10 seconds backcourt: Rewards good defense.
4. 5 seconds closely guarded: Rewards good defense.
5. 5 seconds free throw: Game flow.

I am old school as well, but all of these time rules were installed to enhance the game. IMHO, the shot clock is the reason Class A bb is much more exciting than it was in the 90's. However, each of those teams are much deeper and more athletic. There are pros and cons for all rules. Guessing shot clock is here to stay so coaches should teach accordingly. I can think of only a handful of games over 50 years in which stall ball worked to keep an inferior team close to or beating a superior team. However, some of them go down as classics.


Just to clarify...you get 10 seconds to attempt a FT once the shooter controls the ball at the line.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Tue Feb 02, 2021 3:43 pm

Run4Fun2009 wrote:
classB4ever wrote:5. 10 seconds free throw: Game flow.


Just to clarify...you get 10 seconds to attempt a FT once the shooter controls the ball at the line.


Good catch, corrected.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby BasketballMind » Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:51 am

Flip wrote:
BasketballMind wrote:Any kid that aspires to play basketball after high school will have to play with a shot clock, against other kids that grew up playing with it. You've gotta adapt with the times or you'll get left behind

I'm pro shot clock, but this has always been a bad argument for it. Most states don't have a shot clock so when there is a good chance in college the other players didn't grow up having one. There was a mod, baseball, that went on to play college basketball and said there was basically no adjustment from HS to college with regards to a shot clock. We should pull HS freshman and ask what the biggest adjustment from JH to HS is. I wonder where the shot clock would fall on the list.


The shot clock comes into play in close games, and if you're smart and prepared you can use it to your advantage. 2-for-1 situations in the final minute, controlling the final possession when the game clock has less time on it than a full shot clock, etc. There are not a lot of possessions during the flow of the game that have shot clock violations, but you do see it from time to time. My best argument for it is not letting teams sit on the basketball to kill the clock. 3-4 minutes to go in the game, teams can't go into a stall. They've still got to get the ball in the basket. I'm very against teams picking up wins because they can play keep away during the fourth quarter.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Flip » Wed Feb 03, 2021 11:55 am

BasketballMind wrote:The shot clock comes into play in close games, and if you're smart and prepared you can use it to your advantage. 2-for-1 situations in the final minute, controlling the final possession when the game clock has less time on it than a full shot clock, etc. There are not a lot of possessions during the flow of the game that have shot clock violations, but you do see it from time to time. My best argument for it is not letting teams sit on the basketball to kill the clock. 3-4 minutes to go in the game, teams can't go into a stall. They've still got to get the ball in the basket. I'm very against teams picking up wins because they can play keep away during the fourth quarter.

These are good reasons IMO.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Thu Feb 18, 2021 12:37 pm

Yearly Predictions (Big School 170+ 9-12):
Region 1: Big School/Private 67%
Region 2: Big School 59%
Region 3: A Small School 84%
Region 4: FWM vs. field > 50%
Region 5: Shiloh Christian vs. field > 54%
Region 6: Big School/Private 63%
Region 7: Beulah/Dickinson Trinity 84%
Region 8: A Small School 67%

2021 Region Predictions:
Region 1: Oak Grove/Enderlin vs. Kindred. If healthy, think Kindred goes to state.
Region 2: HCV vs. Grafton. HCV seems to be getting better as season progresses. HCV
Region 3: Ellendale vs. EKM Toss up. Will pick EKM
Region 4: FWM vs. Langdon. FWM, size, depth and experience.
Region 5: Shiloh Christian vs. Flasher SC experience and depth.
Region 6: Rugby vs. Minot Bishop Ryan Toss up. Think Rugby will regroup.
Region 7: Beulah vs. Dickinson Trinity Toss up. Going with gym. Love to see Bowman county sneak in.
Region 8: White Shield vs. Powers Lake Love to see Jesse make it, but experience to PL.

Average Yearly State Results:
1st Place - Big/Private 67%
2nd Place - Big/Private 59%
3rd Place - Big/Private vs. Small 50-50
4th Place - Small 58%
5th Place - Big/Private 59%
6th Place - Big/Private vs. Small 50-50
7th Place - Small 63%
8th Place - Small 58%

Average finish for last 7 years by Region:

Region 4 2.14
Region 6 3.29
Region 1 3.86
Region 2 4.71
Region 3 4.71
Region 7 4.71
Region 5 5.57
Region 8 6.86


Not knowing seeding or who will be there, will still give it a shot.
2021 State Tourney Prediction:
1st Place - Four Winds-Minnewaukan (R4)
2nd Place - Kindred (R1)
3rd Place - Dickinson Trinity (R7)
4th Place - HCV (R2)
5th Place - Rugby (R6)
6th Place - Shiloh Christian (R5)
7th Place - EKM (R3) (This would be my Cinderella team to win it all and they could)
8th Place - Powers Lake (R8)

*Note - Nothing against any teams and certainly will be cheering for the underdogs. Good luck to all players and teams. Stay healthy and have fun.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby ND Basketball Fan » Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:17 pm

Not knowing seeding or who will be there, will still give it a shot.
2021 State Tourney Prediction:
1st Place - Four Winds-Minnewaukan (R4)
2nd Place - Kindred (R1)
3rd Place - Dickinson Trinity (R7)
4th Place - HCV (R2)
5th Place - Rugby (R6)
6th Place - Shiloh Christian (R5)
7th Place - EKM (R3) (This would be my Cinderella team to win it all and they could)
8th Place - Powers Lake (R8)

Here are my predictions for Class B State this year:
1st Four Winds
2nd Dickinson Trinity
3rd Enderlin
4th Grafton
5th EKM
6th Rugby
7th Shiloh - I think the easiest path to State
8th White Shield

Should be entertaining!
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Re: 3 class system

Postby BasketballMind » Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:32 pm

Is the state tournament going to have a consolation bracket?
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Flip » Thu Feb 25, 2021 1:57 pm

Saw a stat today that Central Cass or Kindred have been in the Region 1 girls championship in 16 straight years.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby The Schwab » Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:04 pm

Dickinson Trinity boys have only missed something like 1 region title game in the past 20+ year
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Re: 3 class system

Postby packers21 » Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:06 pm

The Schwab wrote:Dickinson Trinity boys have only missed something like 1 region title game in the past 20+ year


Shiloh has a similar stat but atleast the Regional Tournament isnt played on their home court.
It is a little harder to motivate kids I guess because they’ve been pampered so much. We’re in the trophy generation, give ‘em a trophy for 23rd place, make ‘em feel good. Make mom and dad feel good.” Tom Izzo, Michigan State Basketball
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Flip » Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:10 pm

The Schwab wrote:Dickinson Trinity boys have only missed something like 1 region title game in the past 20+ year

It was in a different thread and you mentioned how you don't know if the two-class system in girls basketball is broken, but you thought it was broken in boys basketball. I think it is more broken in girls. At least on the eastern side of the state, there is way less parity.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby The Schwab » Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:35 pm

On the western side of the state:

Boys:

Region 5- Broken in respect to Bismarck Shiloh, other schools seem to rotate being up and down. In the last 15 seasons it's been Bismarck at state 10 times. Verdict = Broken

Region 6- A lot of big schools and a couple privates. In the past 15 season outside of Berthold and their 3 appearances, been dominated by Rugby and Minot privates. Verdict = Broken

Region 7- 3 appearances in the last 15 years by schools other than Dickinson Trinity and Beulah. Verdict = Broken

Region 8- 9 different reps at state in the last 15 years. Verdict = Not Broken

Girls Side:

Region 5- Bismarck Shiloh has been at state 7 times since 2005, teams like New Salem and Grant County have made 3 or more trips in that time. Verdict = Broken

Region 6- Past 9 reps have been Rugby or Privates, 6 years before that had a few smaller reps. Verdict = Broken

Region 7 - Different schools have represented the region. Verdict = Not Broken

Region 8- Only 5 different reps in the past 15 years, has been less broken since Watford went up. Verdict = Becoming less broken
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:44 pm

Eastern side of state added to Schwab's above post:

Overview of boy's region reps for last 25 years (B = Big, P = Private/Parochial, S = Small):
Region 1 - 25% of schools (B/P) represent region 54% of the time. Broken
Region 2 - 12.5% of schools (B) represent region 60% of the time. Broken
Region 3 - 93.75% of schools (S) represent region 84% of the time. ? (No P's and only 1 B for 9 of 25 years)
Region 4 - 87.5% of schools (S) represent region 68% of the time. ?
Region 5 - 6.25% of schools (P) represent region 56% of the time. Broken
Region 6 - 25% of schools (B/P) represent region 64% of the time. Broken
Region 7 - 12.5% of schools (B/P) represent region 84% of the time. Broken
Region 8 - 81.25% of schools (S) represent region 64% of the time. ?
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Bison-Vikes #1 » Mon Mar 01, 2021 2:19 pm

So after reading about the SODAK 16 in main thread, think that there could be a mixture of what is upthread here and the SODAK 16 format.
AA stays the same, maybe limit to 20 or so.
A is current bigger class b schools and private. Think 32 is listed above.
B are the rest.
Break it up as stated upthread. East and West for AA. 4 regions for A, 4 regions for B. Probably have super regionals for A, districts and regionals for B. Play it down to the top 2 teams in each region for A and B. Let's say you did this on Monday & Tuesday nights. Seed after that. Then on Thursday follow the SODAK 16 format, 1 plays 16, 2 plays 15, etc., at a neutral court midway. This would allow a day to set travel plans. Also allows both A and B teams to have gotten there playing like opponents and allows the best teams to advance to the state tourney.
This solves a lot of problems. Keeps state tourneys at 2. Allows smaller schools to play against like teams. Makes districts meaningful again. With expanded regions, makes regional tourneys a must watch. And lastly, brings the best teams to state.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Flip » Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:51 pm

There are a lot of people that think a 3-class system will never happen. They may be right, but one thing I'm quite sure of is we will not go to a hybrid system.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Bison-Vikes #1 » Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:57 pm

Flip wrote:There are a lot of people that think a 3-class system will never happen. They may be right, but one thing I'm quite sure of is we will not go to a hybrid system.


Fair enough. Explanation why? It seems to address every single complaint.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Flip » Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:19 pm

Bison-Vikes #1 wrote:
Flip wrote:There are a lot of people that think a 3-class system will never happen. They may be right, but one thing I'm quite sure of is we will not go to a hybrid system.


Fair enough. Explanation why? It seems to address every single complaint.

It is just too out of the box if that makes any sense. I think we would be the first state to have any type of hybrid state tournament. ND isn't that much of a trendsetter.
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