3 class system

The Buzz on Class B.
Forum rules
Please do not post just to complain about players, coaches, teams, officials, fans, or anyone else. Lets all try to demonstrate the spirit of good sportsmanship. Posts may be edited or deleted that do not comply.

Re: 3 class system

Postby ndlionsfan » Tue Jan 26, 2021 12:04 pm

I always like discussing these ideas even though they'll never go anywhere with the NDHSAA. I just don't understand what your reasoning is for not including Velva, Oakes, Bowman Co, and Nedrose in the A division based on their enrollments.
"There is only one thing in which a person can start at the top - digging a hole"
User avatar
ndlionsfan
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 4088
Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:36 am
Location: Central ND

Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Tue Jan 26, 2021 12:33 pm

ndlionsfan wrote:I always like discussing these ideas even though they'll never go anywhere with the NDHSAA. I just don't understand what your reasoning is for not including Velva, Oakes, Bowman Co, and Nedrose in the A division based on their enrollments.


Of course it will never happen, but like to stir the pot every now and then. :D Those are all old numbers that I just copied/pasted from way upthread. However, when I did that it was based strictly on geography for travel purposes, etc. Took first 8 teams (including private) in that area according to enrollment and everybody below that went to lower class. So, there would be some teams in certain regions with higher enrollment than in other regions. Oakes for instance was the 9th team in Region 1, so fell to Region 1B.
classB4ever
NDPreps Hall of Fame
 
Posts: 1158
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:20 pm

Re: 3 class system

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Tue Jan 26, 2021 1:13 pm

classB4ever wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:I always like discussing these ideas even though they'll never go anywhere with the NDHSAA. I just don't understand what your reasoning is for not including Velva, Oakes, Bowman Co, and Nedrose in the A division based on their enrollments.


Of course it will never happen, but like to stir the pot every now and then. :D Those are all old numbers that I just copied/pasted from way upthread. However, when I did that it was based strictly on geography for travel purposes, etc. Took first 8 teams (including private) in that area according to enrollment and everybody below that went to lower class. So, there would be some teams in certain regions with higher enrollment than in other regions. Oakes for instance was the 9th team in Region 1, so fell to Region 1B.


I was just going to ask where the numbers came from cause several are off from the numbers I have. It's always fun to play with the idea and we may as well start thinking about this again as a few schools have upticked enrollment and will near 300-325 range in the coming years.
Run4Fun2009
NDPreps The King
 
Posts: 15876
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:06 pm

Re: 3 class system

Postby Bison-Vikes #1 » Tue Jan 26, 2021 4:31 pm

It's too late for a 3 class system. With the decline of population in rural areas and loss of participation due to parity issues in current system, believe what you see now is what you will see for next 20 years. Handful of teams will dominate every year. 1 team from a small school will come along every now and then, but will happen less and less as time goes on.
Bison-Vikes #1
NDPreps All-State
 
Posts: 525
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2011 10:47 am

Re: 3 class system

Postby The Schwab » Tue Jan 26, 2021 4:57 pm

The 3 class system is the one example that really shows the NDHSAA doesn't care about what it's member schools want. The vote passed the district chairs meeting a few years back with a 14-2 vote.
The Schwab
User avatar
The Schwab
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 4327
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:38 am
Location: The Peace Garden State

Re: 3 class system

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Tue Jan 26, 2021 5:00 pm

The Schwab wrote:The 3 class system is the one example that really shows the NDHSAA doesn't care about what it's member schools want. The vote passed the district chairs meeting a few years back with a 14-2 vote.


I believe the last one had more approval from the B schools then the A schools...which was odd.
Run4Fun2009
NDPreps The King
 
Posts: 15876
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:06 pm

Re: 3 class system

Postby B Historian » Tue Jan 26, 2021 10:09 pm

Bison-Vikes #1 wrote:It's too late for a 3 class system. With the decline of population in rural areas and loss of participation due to parity issues in current system, believe what you see now is what you will see for next 20 years. Handful of teams will dominate every year. 1 team from a small school will come along every now and then, but will happen less and less as time goes on.


SD has had a 3-class system for 35 years and that state is having similar problems with participation and parity issues.

Times change and values change and I think those factors play a large role in the participation issues. But I also think the game is harder to play for the "average" athlete than it was 30 years ago: It's faster and you have to be able to shoot well from greater distances. With so many other options of things to do now, it's much easier for the average kid to give up the game, especially when playing could also mean traveling 30 minutes just to get to practice in some of these coops.

Also, I never see this talked about, but I think the shot clock has made the parity issues worse in Class B. Sure, the shot clock is fine when teams like Enderlin and Four Winds play, but for the 90% of the rest of these schools it doesn't make sense. It's just logical that a team with less shooters and athletes is going to play worse basketball with the shot clock. I am shocked at the number of games this season with teams scoring in the 20's. The Utopian vision of 80-78 scores in Class B every night has not materialized.
B Historian
NDPreps All-Conference
 
Posts: 274
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:13 pm

Re: 3 class system

Postby B Historian » Tue Jan 26, 2021 10:35 pm

Over the last 50 years, the population of ND has increased over 20%, while at the same time the number of HS basketball teams in the state has decreased from 279 to 126. Obviously, the entire population of the state has shifted into a few larger cities and the traditional Class B towns fortunate enough to have some proximity to the population centers.

If you took all the kids walking the halls of the two West Fargo schools right now, how many good Class B teams could you create? 30 years ago those same kids' parents were spread out all over the state playing Class B basketball.
B Historian
NDPreps All-Conference
 
Posts: 274
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:13 pm

Re: 3 class system

Postby Flying Wallenda » Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:26 am

When this came around again a few years back membership schools voted 60% against and 40% for a 3 class system. Its hard to change classifications when the majority of the schools aren't in favor.
Flying Wallenda
NDPreps All-State
 
Posts: 744
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:39 pm

Re: 3 class system

Postby Bison-Vikes #1 » Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:47 am

B Historian wrote:
Bison-Vikes #1 wrote:It's too late for a 3 class system. With the decline of population in rural areas and loss of participation due to parity issues in current system, believe what you see now is what you will see for next 20 years. Handful of teams will dominate every year. 1 team from a small school will come along every now and then, but will happen less and less as time goes on.


SD has had a 3-class system for 35 years and that state is having similar problems with participation and parity issues.

Times change and values change and I think those factors play a large role in the participation issues. But I also think the game is harder to play for the "average" athlete than it was 30 years ago: It's faster and you have to be able to shoot well from greater distances. With so many other options of things to do now, it's much easier for the average kid to give up the game, especially when playing could also mean traveling 30 minutes just to get to practice in some of these coops.


SD has approximately 274 public schools and 16 private. They are fielding 18 - AA teams, 55 - A teams and 84 - B teams. Percentage of bbb teams to high schools is 54%. ND has approximately 177 public schools and 16 private. They are fielding 22 - A teams and 104 B - teams. Percentage of bbb teams to high schools is 65%. You could say that ND has a better participation rate than SD. The question remains, how many more teams would there be if ND would have went to 3 classes 20 years ago? How many co-ops would not have happened if there was more parity in the smaller schools?

B Historian wrote:Times change and values change and I think those factors play a large role in the participation issues. But I also think the game is harder to play for the "average" athlete than it was 30 years ago: It's faster and you have to be able to shoot well from greater distances. With so many other options of things to do now, it's much easier for the average kid to give up the game, especially when playing could also mean traveling 30 minutes just to get to practice in some of these coops.

I would say the game has changed not the athletes. IMHO, the reason it's faster is 2 fold: Increase in 3 point shots and shot clock. Buying into the 3 point offense leads to more wide open court, longer passes and longer rebounds. Longer passes turn into more steals for more layups. Longer rebounds turn into more transition points. Agree with the travel issues. However, that would not be the case if schools would not have had to co-op to compete.

B Historian wrote:Also, I never see this talked about, but I think the shot clock has made the parity issues worse in Class B. Sure, the shot clock is fine when teams like Enderlin and Four Winds play, but for the 90% of the rest of these schools it doesn't make sense. It's just logical that a team with less shooters and athletes is going to play worse basketball with the shot clock. I am shocked at the number of games this season with teams scoring in the 20's. The Utopian vision of 80-78 scores in Class B every night has not materialized.


100% agree. Shot clock came into use in the 90's for Class A. Their games were very low scoring and very physical. Attendance was not good because of that. The shot clock really helped that. They have a good brand of basketball right now. Class B was always considered wide open and fast paced. But, change one and you end up changing all it seems.
Last edited by Bison-Vikes #1 on Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bison-Vikes #1
NDPreps All-State
 
Posts: 525
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2011 10:47 am

Re: 3 class system

Postby The Schwab » Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:04 am

Flying Wallenda wrote:When this came around again a few years back membership schools voted 60% against and 40% for a 3 class system. Its hard to change classifications when the majority of the schools aren't in favor.


I have heard the reason for this is so many schools are voting on the belief of "if it doesn't help us specifically we won't vote for it" would you agree with that assessment?
The Schwab
User avatar
The Schwab
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 4327
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:38 am
Location: The Peace Garden State

Re: 3 class system

Postby Flying Wallenda » Wed Jan 27, 2021 1:49 pm

The Schwab wrote:
Flying Wallenda wrote:When this came around again a few years back membership schools voted 60% against and 40% for a 3 class system. Its hard to change classifications when the majority of the schools aren't in favor.


I have heard the reason for this is so many schools are voting on the belief of "if it doesn't help us specifically we won't vote for it" would you agree with that assessment?


Any response would be purely speculation on my part. I have to believe that a large number of member schools have no desire to travel excessively in Dec/Jan/Feb. Adding an additional class would certainly add to that.
Flying Wallenda
NDPreps All-State
 
Posts: 744
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:39 pm

Re: 3 class system

Postby The Schwab » Wed Jan 27, 2021 2:11 pm

Flying Wallenda wrote:
The Schwab wrote:
Flying Wallenda wrote:When this came around again a few years back membership schools voted 60% against and 40% for a 3 class system. Its hard to change classifications when the majority of the schools aren't in favor.


I have heard the reason for this is so many schools are voting on the belief of "if it doesn't help us specifically we won't vote for it" would you agree with that assessment?


Any response would be purely speculation on my part. I have to believe that a large number of member schools have no desire to travel excessively in Dec/Jan/Feb. Adding an additional class would certainly add to that.


I agree for sure that travel is a huge piece to the puzzle. If we went to a 3 class system we could essentially play the same schools for regular season, use a power points formula like South Dakota, and add a 3rd class of tournaments.
The Schwab
User avatar
The Schwab
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 4327
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:38 am
Location: The Peace Garden State

Re: 3 class system

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Wed Jan 27, 2021 2:16 pm

The Schwab wrote:
Flying Wallenda wrote:
The Schwab wrote:
Flying Wallenda wrote:When this came around again a few years back membership schools voted 60% against and 40% for a 3 class system. Its hard to change classifications when the majority of the schools aren't in favor.


I have heard the reason for this is so many schools are voting on the belief of "if it doesn't help us specifically we won't vote for it" would you agree with that assessment?


Any response would be purely speculation on my part. I have to believe that a large number of member schools have no desire to travel excessively in Dec/Jan/Feb. Adding an additional class would certainly add to that.


I agree for sure that travel is a huge piece to the puzzle. If we went to a 3 class system we could essentially play the same schools for regular season, use a power points formula like South Dakota, and add a 3rd class of tournaments.


It's feasible...same formula different numbers (I have the same formula going right now for fun in a spreadsheet); it'd be super easy to run...took a day to set up each gender.
Run4Fun2009
NDPreps The King
 
Posts: 15876
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:06 pm

Re: 3 class system

Postby ndlionsfan » Wed Jan 27, 2021 3:00 pm

The Schwab wrote:
Flying Wallenda wrote:
The Schwab wrote:
Flying Wallenda wrote:When this came around again a few years back membership schools voted 60% against and 40% for a 3 class system. Its hard to change classifications when the majority of the schools aren't in favor.


I have heard the reason for this is so many schools are voting on the belief of "if it doesn't help us specifically we won't vote for it" would you agree with that assessment?


Any response would be purely speculation on my part. I have to believe that a large number of member schools have no desire to travel excessively in Dec/Jan/Feb. Adding an additional class would certainly add to that.


I agree for sure that travel is a huge piece to the puzzle. If we went to a 3 class system we could essentially play the same schools for regular season, use a power points formula like South Dakota, and add a 3rd class of tournaments.


Is it though? I know this season has some special circumstances, but our local high school co-op of Benson County has traveled to the following schools for away games: Richland, Napoleon, Westhope, Edinburg, and has region games against Langdon each year. Plus they have had Park River and MPCG travel to our school. Those are huge distances for regular season games compared to 10+ years ago anyway. All of the top teams in the state are traveling to all corners to play the best teams.
"There is only one thing in which a person can start at the top - digging a hole"
User avatar
ndlionsfan
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 4088
Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:36 am
Location: Central ND

Re: 3 class system

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Wed Jan 27, 2021 3:29 pm

ndlionsfan wrote:
The Schwab wrote:
Flying Wallenda wrote:
The Schwab wrote:
Flying Wallenda wrote:When this came around again a few years back membership schools voted 60% against and 40% for a 3 class system. Its hard to change classifications when the majority of the schools aren't in favor.


I have heard the reason for this is so many schools are voting on the belief of "if it doesn't help us specifically we won't vote for it" would you agree with that assessment?


Any response would be purely speculation on my part. I have to believe that a large number of member schools have no desire to travel excessively in Dec/Jan/Feb. Adding an additional class would certainly add to that.


I agree for sure that travel is a huge piece to the puzzle. If we went to a 3 class system we could essentially play the same schools for regular season, use a power points formula like South Dakota, and add a 3rd class of tournaments.


Is it though? I know this season has some special circumstances, but our local high school co-op of Benson County has traveled to the following schools for away games: Richland, Napoleon, Westhope, Edinburg, and has region games against Langdon each year. Plus they have had Park River and MPCG travel to our school. Those are huge distances for regular season games compared to 10+ years ago anyway. All of the top teams in the state are traveling to all corners to play the best teams.


There are some schools who refuse to travel far for games...before this year's situation; there are also schools who don't even schedule their full allotment of games.
Run4Fun2009
NDPreps The King
 
Posts: 15876
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:06 pm

Re: 3 class system

Postby The Schwab » Wed Jan 27, 2021 3:34 pm

And honestly the travel thing can go out the window when you look at Region 4 for football, or the schedule that the top teams in the state play for basketball year after year.
The Schwab
User avatar
The Schwab
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 4327
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:38 am
Location: The Peace Garden State

Re: 3 class system

Postby Flip » Wed Jan 27, 2021 3:36 pm

I agree. The teams that would be the best in that middle class are traveling all over the state. And if you were worried about travel, seed your tournaments by QRF and don't require any region games. That way if you're a middle-class team having a down year you can schedule a bunch of "B" games so you can stay competitive during the season.
Flip
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 5062
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:35 am

Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:55 am

Travel has been an excuse forever. It can no longer be used as one. Remaining in a 2 class system has increased travel throughout the state. Not just for games/practices but for academics and all extracurricular activities as well.
classB4ever
NDPreps Hall of Fame
 
Posts: 1158
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:20 pm

Re: 3 class system

Postby B Historian » Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:00 pm

Bison-Vikes #1 wrote: SD has approximately 274 public schools and 16 private. They are fielding 18 - AA teams, 55 - A teams and 84 - B teams. Percentage of bbb teams to high schools is 54%. ND has approximately 177 public schools and 16 private. They are fielding 22 - A teams and 126 B - teams. Percentage of bbb teams to high schools is 65%. You could say that ND has a better participation rate than SD. The question remains, how many more teams would there be if ND would have went to 3 classes 20 years ago? How many co-ops would not have happened if there was more parity in the smaller schools?


SD currently has 14 basketball coops in its lower two divisions while ND currently has over 30 coops in Class B. In general SD rural school districts have been a bit more proactive about consolidating than those in ND, so that fact skews the number of coops between the two states. But I think it's fair to say that had a 3-class system been in place in ND for long period of time that there would be more basketball teams playing today.
B Historian
NDPreps All-Conference
 
Posts: 274
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:13 pm

Re: 3 class system

Postby B Historian » Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:11 pm

The Schwab wrote:
Flying Wallenda wrote:When this came around again a few years back membership schools voted 60% against and 40% for a 3 class system. Its hard to change classifications when the majority of the schools aren't in favor.


I have heard the reason for this is so many schools are voting on the belief of "if it doesn't help us specifically we won't vote for it" would you agree with that assessment?


I think it's the lack of a well thought out plan that causes schools to vote against a 3-class system. It's easy to divide the schools up into three classes, but administrators casting votes also want to know how the regional and state tournament system will work, the effects on other sports and sports seasons (start dates), regular season scheduling requirements, etc.
B Historian
NDPreps All-Conference
 
Posts: 274
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:13 pm

Re: 3 class system

Postby Flip » Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:29 pm

B Historian wrote:Also, I never see this talked about, but I think the shot clock has made the parity issues worse in Class B. Sure, the shot clock is fine when teams like Enderlin and Four Winds play, but for the 90% of the rest of these schools it doesn't make sense. It's just logical that a team with less shooters and athletes is going to play worse basketball with the shot clock. I am shocked at the number of games this season with teams scoring in the 20's. The Utopian vision of 80-78 scores in Class B every night has not materialized.

I think the parity issues have got worse in the shot clock era, but I don't think it is due to the shot clock. Teams that are scoring in the 20s wouldn't be scoring in the 30s if they took away the shot clock IMO. How many teams lack shooters and athletes, but have competent ball-handling and passing to hang on to the ball for 35 seconds? I'd say very few.
Flip
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 5062
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:35 am

Re: 3 class system

Postby B Historian » Thu Jan 28, 2021 3:50 pm

Flip wrote:
B Historian wrote:Also, I never see this talked about, but I think the shot clock has made the parity issues worse in Class B. Sure, the shot clock is fine when teams like Enderlin and Four Winds play, but for the 90% of the rest of these schools it doesn't make sense. It's just logical that a team with less shooters and athletes is going to play worse basketball with the shot clock. I am shocked at the number of games this season with teams scoring in the 20's. The Utopian vision of 80-78 scores in Class B every night has not materialized.


I think the parity issues have got worse in the shot clock era, but I don't think it is due to the shot clock. Teams that are scoring in the 20s wouldn't be scoring in the 30s if they took away the shot clock IMO. How many teams lack shooters and athletes, but have competent ball-handling and passing to hang on to the ball for 35 seconds? I'd say very few.


The shot clock has forced all teams to play the same style. Teams that would be better off slowing it down or trying to run something more patterned on offense are forced to play at a pace they may not be comfortable with. With the shot clock, teams take the first somewhat open shot they can get. This doesn't lead to good basketball and makes the less talented teams even worse compared to the teams they are playing. I watch a lot of HS basketball in another state that doesn't have the shot clock. The games have a much more natural flow to them and coaching/strategy play a larger role when there is no shot clock.
B Historian
NDPreps All-Conference
 
Posts: 274
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:13 pm

Re: 3 class system

Postby packers21 » Thu Jan 28, 2021 4:44 pm

B Historian wrote:
Flip wrote:
B Historian wrote:Also, I never see this talked about, but I think the shot clock has made the parity issues worse in Class B. Sure, the shot clock is fine when teams like Enderlin and Four Winds play, but for the 90% of the rest of these schools it doesn't make sense. It's just logical that a team with less shooters and athletes is going to play worse basketball with the shot clock. I am shocked at the number of games this season with teams scoring in the 20's. The Utopian vision of 80-78 scores in Class B every night has not materialized.


I think the parity issues have got worse in the shot clock era, but I don't think it is due to the shot clock. Teams that are scoring in the 20s wouldn't be scoring in the 30s if they took away the shot clock IMO. How many teams lack shooters and athletes, but have competent ball-handling and passing to hang on to the ball for 35 seconds? I'd say very few.


The shot clock has forced all teams to play the same style. Teams that would be better off slowing it down or trying to run something more patterned on offense are forced to play at a pace they may not be comfortable with. With the shot clock, teams take the first somewhat open shot they can get. This doesn't lead to good basketball and makes the less talented teams even worse compared to the teams they are playing. I watch a lot of HS basketball in another state that doesn't have the shot clock. The games have a much more natural flow to them and coaching/strategy play a larger role when there is no shot clock.


Totally disagree with this statement.
It is a little harder to motivate kids I guess because they’ve been pampered so much. We’re in the trophy generation, give ‘em a trophy for 23rd place, make ‘em feel good. Make mom and dad feel good.” Tom Izzo, Michigan State Basketball
packers21
NDPreps Hall of Fame
 
Posts: 1438
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:55 am

Re: 3 class system

Postby hoophoophoop » Thu Jan 28, 2021 5:47 pm

get out of 80s and move on, shot clock is the best thing
hoophoophoop
NDPreps All-Conference
 
Posts: 263
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 5:15 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Basketball - Class B

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

cron