State Tournament "Change My Mind"

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Re: State Tournament "Change My Mind"

Postby gvmearees » Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:54 pm

I've got a unique idea. Stop whining, complaining and making excuses, Get Better. I'm quite certain if a player wanted, he/she could find a coach to open the door to the gym, no matter the size of the community, to shoot, lift, whatever. You don't need a YMCA to do that. You don't need a travel team to get better. You don't need a "trainer". Getting better isn't always fun, it's spending lots of time by yourself. If you're lucky, you may have like minded friends to workout with. If you're lucky, you may have a mom or dad to help you out. If you're lucky, you don't have small minded people making excuses or complaining that Shiloh or Trinity or Ryan or any of the privates have such huge advantages over you. Maybe you should ask to spend a week with Young or Hedberg or Bohl to see how you're workouts and time spent by yourself compares with theirs. The Heimers of the world will always be around making excuses, pay no attention to them. Oh, by the way, the third class would fail within 5 year. Don't believe me, go watch the first few days of district or take the 4th place team from every region in the state, have a tournament and see how much interest there is. Get Better!!!!
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Re: State Tournament "Change My Mind"

Postby BISONFAN18 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:13 pm

gvmearees wrote:I've got a unique idea. Stop whining, complaining and making excuses, Get Better. I'm quite certain if a player wanted, he/she could find a coach to open the door to the gym, no matter the size of the community, to shoot, lift, whatever. You don't need a YMCA to do that. You don't need a travel team to get better. You don't need a "trainer". Getting better isn't always fun, it's spending lots of time by yourself. If you're lucky, you may have like minded friends to workout with. If you're lucky, you may have a mom or dad to help you out. If you're lucky, you don't have small minded people making excuses or complaining that Shiloh or Trinity or Ryan or any of the privates have such huge advantages over you. Maybe you should ask to spend a week with Young or Hedberg or Bohl to see how you're workouts and time spent by yourself compares with theirs. The Heimers of the world will always be around making excuses, pay no attention to them. Oh, by the way, the third class would fail within 5 year. Don't believe me, go watch the first few days of district or take the 4th place team from every region in the state, have a tournament and see how much interest there is. Get Better!!!!


I agree. Kid's need to work harder. I also think people shouldn't complain when everyone is cheering for the other team.
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Re: State Tournament "Change My Mind"

Postby defense1st » Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:14 pm

heimer wrote:A thread of observations from the B, meant only to inspire dialogue, not make you think I'm smarter than anyone (even though....... :lol: )

1) If only two players from Shiloh Christian are all-tournament, Caanan Fagerland is the other one.

2) Ellendale is in the 7th place game, but they deserve two players on the all-tournament team.

3) Teams that play for regional titles drive to the basket and kick out for 3s. Teams that make the state tournament take mid-range j's. Teams that win state tournaments make mid-range j's. You still have to score from 8 to 15 feet to win big games.

4) The first round was excellent, and the tournament overall has been very good. The shotclock has improved basketball at the state tournament level of play.

5) It's time for high school basketball to adopt and embellishment technical. If I see a certain kid throw his head back and flop again, I'm going to throw up.

I'll put out my take on some of these with a post-tournament view to try to get this back on topic a little.

1. Hard to argue with this. I remember watching Fagerland as a sophomore and he's very much the same now as then, just stronger. He was confident and aggressive from the start. Mitzel was very important to Shiloh, but Fagerland was huge in the tournament.

2. I had to remind myself that they took 8th as they started announcing the team, because I was sure they would have Walker and Molan. Tough to put two on from the 7/8th place team though. I don't see who could be replaced. FWIW, I though Aiden Nordloef from PL could have pushed for a spot too though.

3. This has been a talking point for a lot of people since the first night, more specifically about a lack of post play and a reliance on three pointers. Most of that criticism has come from people who played when there wasn't a three point line and holding the ball for an entire quarter was a viable strategy, so take that for what it is.

I think this point is generally fair, though. At least, in the way that EVERYONE has to be able to hit from 15 ft. You can't have more than one player that isn't confident in that shot on the floor at one time anymore.

4. Easy agreement.

5. I've long been a proponent of cracking down on the "stand-in-the-way-and-hope-I-get-bumped" strategy on defense. This tournament wasn't as bad as last year's in my opinion, but there was still enough that made me tilt my head and ask, "really?"
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Re: State Tournament "Change My Mind"

Postby defense1st » Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:22 pm

BISONFAN18 wrote:
gvmearees wrote:I've got a unique idea. Stop whining, complaining and making excuses, Get Better. I'm quite certain if a player wanted, he/she could find a coach to open the door to the gym, no matter the size of the community, to shoot, lift, whatever. You don't need a YMCA to do that. You don't need a travel team to get better. You don't need a "trainer". Getting better isn't always fun, it's spending lots of time by yourself. If you're lucky, you may have like minded friends to workout with. If you're lucky, you may have a mom or dad to help you out. If you're lucky, you don't have small minded people making excuses or complaining that Shiloh or Trinity or Ryan or any of the privates have such huge advantages over you. Maybe you should ask to spend a week with Young or Hedberg or Bohl to see how you're workouts and time spent by yourself compares with theirs. The Heimers of the world will always be around making excuses, pay no attention to them. Oh, by the way, the third class would fail within 5 year. Don't believe me, go watch the first few days of district or take the 4th place team from every region in the state, have a tournament and see how much interest there is. Get Better!!!!


I agree. Kid's need to work harder. I also think people shouldn't complain when everyone is cheering for the other team.


I have a hard time with the "kids these days don't work hard enough" narrative when those saying that are the ones who raised the "kids these days."

(I don't know the age or child status of the two I'm quoting, just a general thought)
Last edited by defense1st on Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: State Tournament "Change My Mind"

Postby classB4ever » Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:35 pm

gvmearees wrote:Get Better. I'm quite certain if a player wanted, he/she could find a coach to open the door to the gym, no matter the size of the community, to shoot, lift, whatever. You don't need a YMCA to do that. You don't need a travel team to get better. You don't need a "trainer". Getting better isn't always fun, it's spending lots of time by yourself. If you're lucky, you may have like minded friends to workout with. If you're lucky, you may have a mom or dad to help you out.


Do you honestly believe that kids in smaller schools are not doing this now? Hmm.

gvmearees wrote: Maybe you should ask to spend a week with Young or Hedberg or Bohl to see how you're workouts and time spent by yourself compares with theirs.


The 3 mentioned players are all quality bb players and I am sure fine young men. But what it the main goal in all of this? Is it having competitive basketball night in and night out or is it making it to the state tournament? If it's the latter, then I will tell you to take any of the 3 individuals you mentioned, put them on a small school team where 7th - 10th make up a large part of the roster and none of the 3 make it to state. If you don't have numbers and an above average supporting cast you are not making it out of regionals.

gvmearees wrote:Oh, by the way, the third class would fail within 5 year. Don't believe me, go watch the first few days of district or take the 4th place team from every region in the state, have a tournament and see how much interest there is. Get Better!!!!


Funny that it works in 45+ other states but could never work ND. I will make a bet, you take the top 3 teams from each region, I will take the remainder of the field. Will put on a state tournament. Let's see which one has the better turn out.

There's a reason why Shiloh doesn't play Century, Mandan, Legacy, St. Mary's. Why BR doesn't play Minot High. Why Oak Grove doesn't play Shanley, Davies, West Fargo, South and North. Why DT doesn't play Dickinson. All would save travel miles and ease scheduling, yes? It's because they would get it handed to them. Does that mean Shiloh, OG, DT, BR or OR players don't put in as much time as the others? I don't think so. It comes down to depth and supporting casts.

My reasoning for a 3rd class is to improve basketball during the season. Minimize blow outs. Having like teams playing like teams. I could give a crap about trophies. Heck, would just as soon have a 1 class system. But having mercy rules, etc. is not helping participation in ND bb. 2 cents.
Last edited by classB4ever on Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: State Tournament "Change My Mind"

Postby BISONFAN18 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:40 pm

defense1st wrote:
BISONFAN18 wrote:
gvmearees wrote:I've got a unique idea. Stop whining, complaining and making excuses, Get Better. I'm quite certain if a player wanted, he/she could find a coach to open the door to the gym, no matter the size of the community, to shoot, lift, whatever. You don't need a YMCA to do that. You don't need a travel team to get better. You don't need a "trainer". Getting better isn't always fun, it's spending lots of time by yourself. If you're lucky, you may have like minded friends to workout with. If you're lucky, you may have a mom or dad to help you out. If you're lucky, you don't have small minded people making excuses or complaining that Shiloh or Trinity or Ryan or any of the privates have such huge advantages over you. Maybe you should ask to spend a week with Young or Hedberg or Bohl to see how you're workouts and time spent by yourself compares with theirs. The Heimers of the world will always be around making excuses, pay no attention to them. Oh, by the way, the third class would fail within 5 year. Don't believe me, go watch the first few days of district or take the 4th place team from every region in the state, have a tournament and see how much interest there is. Get Better!!!!


I agree. Kid's need to work harder. I also think people shouldn't complain when everyone is cheering for the other team.


I have a hard time with the "kid's these days don't work hard enough" narrative when those saying that are the ones who raised the "kid's these days."

(I don't know the age or child status of the two I'm quoting, just a general thought)


For sure. The rest of that post was so naive that kid's working harder was the best I could latch onto. I don't think kids these days don't work hard but should always strive to push harder in general.
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Re: State Tournament "Change My Mind"

Postby The Schwab » Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:47 pm

Thoughts from the tournament and responses to the last set of posts (I don't want to quote every thing I want to respond to):

1. I love going to the state class B tournament, I love class B basketball period.

2. There were some great players at this tournament (it was a different feeling then the girls tournament because most of the top players at this tournament were seniors, not the case with the girls)

3. It seems that people have taken my thoughts on how the foul out situation with 55 from Shiloh and turned them. I will try to make my thoughts clear and concise. I don't care who you cheer for, cheer for whatever team you want. I do have a problem with cheering AGAINST an individual player. And whether you want to agree with me or not, when he fouled out people were cheering against him, not excited that Thompson would get 3 free throws, they were cheering (and waving goodbye) because he wouldn't be allowed to participate anymore and that is not ok, Period.

4. I have never once questioned the time and effort that private schools players or coaches put into their teams, ever. They have great programs and the kids put in the work. I can imagine that the two stars from Minot Ryan put in as much or more time then any player in the state. They worked for what they have earned, PERIOD.

5. Someone made the statement that if kids want to get better and make the state tournament then all they have to do is work at. If that's the case and all the kids do is whine then we better just have one class of basketball and one state tournament. Who cares if it's just the current class A schools that make it, because all of the other schools have the same opportunities as they do, all they have to do is get in the gym and they will get better and schools like Wilton-Wing will be able to compete with schools like Bismarck, because it has nothing to do with the number of kids or the make up of your school, if you have 5 boys in your school then all they have to do is get in the gym and work on their game and you can make the state tournament.
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Re: State Tournament "Change My Mind"

Postby tmd33643 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:32 pm

classB4ever wrote:Funny that it works in 45+ other states but could never work ND. I will make a bet, you take the top 3 teams from each region, I will take the remainder of the field. Will put on a state tournament. Let's see which one has the better turn out.

There's a reason why Shiloh doesn't play Century, Mandan, Legacy, St. Mary's. Why BR doesn't play Minot High. Why Oak Grove doesn't play Shanley, Davies, West Fargo, South and North. Why DT doesn't play Dickinson. All would save travel miles and ease scheduling, yes? It's because they would get it handed to them. Does that mean Shiloh, OG, DT, BR or OR players don't put in as much time as the others? I don't think so. It comes down to depth and supporting casts.

My reasoning for a 3rd class is to improve basketball during the season. Minimize blow outs. Having like teams playing like teams. I could give a crap about trophies. Heck, would just as soon have a 1 class system. But having mercy rules, etc. is not helping participation in ND bb. 2 cents.


I strongly agree with this. It won't be perfect. But I do think a 3rd class would make basketball more competitive overall and limit blow outs in both classes. I also don't think having a 3rd class means handing out trophies to everyone (as some people say). It would actually only give out 1 more trophy to be exact. But the more important thing is to have more competitive basketball overall which is what I think the 3rd class would do. I do have to say I enjoyed watching the class b girls, class a, and class b boys state tournaments this year.
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Re: State Tournament "Change My Mind"

Postby maddog1971 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:47 pm

Ok... I can cheer for who I want. Period. That is my right. If I don't like a coach or a program, I can cheer against them. No I don't need to yell insults or use poor language... but I can yell as loud as I want to cheer against them. Yes.... I will almost always cheer against the private school. In class B they are looked at as the privileged rich kids. It is that way all over the country. We are society that loves the underdog....
Also I don't like the 3 class system.... It would kill the B vibe. I really don't think many people were cheering against Powers Lake. They brought the whole town. There is pride in small town ND kids going up against the big city kids. Powers Lake kids have spent many years in the weight room and in the gym. They earned it.
By the way... I would love to see the stat's on how many of the big B's have been so dominate in the state class B. I really don't think they have. They might have a few years but then they have to build the program back up.
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Re: State Tournament "Change My Mind"

Postby Sportsrube » Mon Mar 18, 2019 5:57 pm

Abbykate wrote:
BISONFAN18 wrote:
Abbykate wrote:
BISONFAN18 wrote:
bisonation6 wrote:
heimer wrote:Abbykate, I agree that kids should not be treated badly.

I also agree with The Schwab.

My question is: are you going to do something about this? You have come here and voiced your concern. Perhaps it's time to also voice it with the administration at the private school you may be affiliated with (if you are affiliated with one).

Those adminiatrators are part of the problem. They are putting those kids in a bad position with the current system. I have not heard of a single private school administrator working toward a three-class system. They like their trips to state.

I'll make no excuses for how kids are treated. The athletes deserve nothing of the sort. Maybe its time the private schools take a more active role in improving the experiences of their athletes. That's a part of the job they are not doing.


I also pin 95% of this on the adults. The kids have nothing to do with it. Most of them are good friends with each other off the court. The ungrateful and jealous adults lead by poor example, speak for their kids, and stir up pointless drama. Social media has played a big part in this increasingly hostile attitude toward private schools. Fans have also gotten really bad in the stands over the last 10 years and you are now beginning to see this displayed by the players whenever they are called for a foul. It all rubs off. It starts with the adults.

I thought it was really cool last night when the big kid from Shiloh helped a Thompson player up from the floor in the middle of the play. You won’t see this in 10 years if parents and fans continue down the path we saw them lead Saturday night. Class B needs to wake up. Class A saw a Snapchat go around last year that a parent sent out saying how they wanted to punch an opposing player. Don’t let Class B come to Class A where we cheer during free throws and other nonsense. Remember, the main mission here is treating everyone with respect and the pledge of good sportsmanship. Each year these contests provide less and less of the “lessons for life.” What do you want these kids to grow up to be? There may be a problem with the current system, but don’t let that supercede what high school sports are really about. There is no excuse to allow this kind of behavior to be given a free pass. A lot of the adults really need to lead by example again.


Private schools deserve some of the blame. You just don't give job's to parents of great athletes or have "host" families for kids who excel at sports and expect people to not be upset.
I couldn't care less but no one should be suprised at the behavior of people in the crowd at these games. I know it is sad but it is true.
You can't have your cake and eat it to.



Do you have proof of this or are you just spewing more hate?


Don't be so sensitive. It happened. The Bearstails, the girl from SD (mobridge??), the young man from Africa. Each a case of a parent being employed or a host family and the kids being skilled. I am not insinuating anything other than people notice and you can't blame people for thinking that "recruiting" goes on. If nothing sketchy happened, don't let it bother you.



So your saying they recruited from Africa??? Seriously?? My daughter met Ogbu at college this year and has gotten to be good friends with him. His situation was scary where he lived he needed to get out of there before something bad happened. I think you are reaching.


And if Ogbu was 5'8" and not athletic would he have still ended up at Shiloh?? Asking for a friend.
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Re: State Tournament "Change My Mind"

Postby BISONFAN18 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:29 pm

Sportsrube wrote:
Abbykate wrote:
BISONFAN18 wrote:
Abbykate wrote:
BISONFAN18 wrote:
bisonation6 wrote:
heimer wrote:Abbykate, I agree that kids should not be treated badly.

I also agree with The Schwab.

My question is: are you going to do something about this? You have come here and voiced your concern. Perhaps it's time to also voice it with the administration at the private school you may be affiliated with (if you are affiliated with one).

Those adminiatrators are part of the problem. They are putting those kids in a bad position with the current system. I have not heard of a single private school administrator working toward a three-class system. They like their trips to state.

I'll make no excuses for how kids are treated. The athletes deserve nothing of the sort. Maybe its time the private schools take a more active role in improving the experiences of their athletes. That's a part of the job they are not doing.


I also pin 95% of this on the adults. The kids have nothing to do with it. Most of them are good friends with each other off the court. The ungrateful and jealous adults lead by poor example, speak for their kids, and stir up pointless drama. Social media has played a big part in this increasingly hostile attitude toward private schools. Fans have also gotten really bad in the stands over the last 10 years and you are now beginning to see this displayed by the players whenever they are called for a foul. It all rubs off. It starts with the adults.

I thought it was really cool last night when the big kid from Shiloh helped a Thompson player up from the floor in the middle of the play. You won’t see this in 10 years if parents and fans continue down the path we saw them lead Saturday night. Class B needs to wake up. Class A saw a Snapchat go around last year that a parent sent out saying how they wanted to punch an opposing player. Don’t let Class B come to Class A where we cheer during free throws and other nonsense. Remember, the main mission here is treating everyone with respect and the pledge of good sportsmanship. Each year these contests provide less and less of the “lessons for life.” What do you want these kids to grow up to be? There may be a problem with the current system, but don’t let that supercede what high school sports are really about. There is no excuse to allow this kind of behavior to be given a free pass. A lot of the adults really need to lead by example again.


Private schools deserve some of the blame. You just don't give job's to parents of great athletes or have "host" families for kids who excel at sports and expect people to not be upset.
I couldn't care less but no one should be suprised at the behavior of people in the crowd at these games. I know it is sad but it is true.
You can't have your cake and eat it to.



Do you have proof of this or are you just spewing more hate?


Don't be so sensitive. It happened. The Bearstails, the girl from SD (mobridge??), the young man from Africa. Each a case of a parent being employed or a host family and the kids being skilled. I am not insinuating anything other than people notice and you can't blame people for thinking that "recruiting" goes on. If nothing sketchy happened, don't let it bother you.



So your saying they recruited from Africa??? Seriously?? My daughter met Ogbu at college this year and has gotten to be good friends with him. His situation was scary where he lived he needed to get out of there before something bad happened. I think you are reaching.


And if Ogbu was 5'8" and not athletic would he have still ended up at Shiloh?? Asking for a friend.


I am not saying the Ogbu kid was not in a tough spot and he was fortunate to have the opportunity he had but unless Shilo makes it a habit to do this for other kids from 3rd world countries who are not stud athletes, I think there will always be the perception that the intentions were sports related.
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Re: State Tournament "Change My Mind"

Postby balla45 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:55 pm

Just a quick comment on the Ogbu situation. The family in question has hosted at least 2 other tall, 6'4" and 7'0" Nigerian individuals who did not play basketball for Shiloh, or participate in athletics at Shiloh in any way.
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Re: State Tournament "Change My Mind"

Postby BISONFAN18 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:00 pm

balla45 wrote:Just a quick comment on the Ogbu situation. The family in question has hosted at least 2 other tall, 6'4" and 7'0" Nigerian individuals who did not play basketball for Shiloh, or participate in athletics at Shiloh in any way.


Who did he live with his senior year? What happened to the 2 that didn't play sports?
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Re: State Tournament "Change My Mind"

Postby balla45 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:09 pm

I do not think it is my place to name the family that hosted him his senior year. Just am saying that the same family hosted 2 other Nigerians. Those 2 did play sports, just never for Shiloh, and are currently in college.
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Re: State Tournament "Change My Mind"

Postby BISONFAN18 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:15 pm

balla45 wrote:I do not think it is my place to name the family that hosted him his senior year. Just am saying that the same family hosted 2 other Nigerians. Those 2 did play sports, just never for Shiloh, and are currently in college.


6'4" and 7'0" you say. Sounds like there is a "recruitment" pipeline. Not necessarily to Shiloh but it does exist. Interesting.
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Re: State Tournament "Change My Mind"

Postby balla45 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:30 pm

This is pure speculation, but it seems possible that the person who reaches out from Nigeria chooses individuals with certain physical traits as it improves the possibility that they will be able to use those physical traits in a sport, increasing their chance of getting an American college education.

I am not sure if that is reality, but I feel it seems plausible.
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Re: State Tournament "Change My Mind"

Postby spins » Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:27 pm

Im going to use the MINOT youth Y ball league situation to pose some questions.

My son played in this Y league with a team made up of kids from his school. This school is a class B team on the outskirts of Minot. They had plenty of players to make a team from only one grade..probably 12-15 kids if i remember.(i believe they started as first graders). There were other small towns that had teams in this league also...maybe 2-3 others.

There were about 4 Minot teams in this same division (same age). These teams had less kids per team...maybe 7-8.
These same group of kids continued through Y ball and had the same teams all the way until 7th grade- which is when school ball started.

So...lets say in this particular grade there were 40 Minot kids that made up these 4 teams.

I can tell you our small class B school Y ball team did not beat any of the 4 minot teams in the 6 years they played them. i doubt any of the other small town Y teams did either. Usually we lost by 30 or more points.

I can also tell you that most of these Minot team kids ended up playing varsity ball for either Minot high or Ryan at some level. Most of these same kids did not go to Ryan school at the time.

Why was there only 4 Minot teams? Or to phrase it differently--why was there only 40 Minot kids in total when our team had 12-15?
Why were these kids so much better than everyone else?
Why did their teams not have any bad players? Even as 2nd graders?
Who are these kids parents?

Yeah, its an odd post..i apologize.
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