State Tournament "Change My Mind"

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State Tournament "Change My Mind"

Postby heimer » Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:15 pm

A thread of observations from the B, meant only to inspire dialogue, not make you think I'm smarter than anyone (even though....... :lol: )

1) If only two players from Shiloh Christian are all-tournament, Caanan Fagerland is the other one. Six 3s last night, and the scoring he did day 1 against Beulah came in big possessions where they needed a basket.

If there's only two, its Young and Fagerland, or Mitzel and Fagerland. Fagerland is one of the two.

Change my mind.

2) Ellendale is in the 7th place game, but they deserve two players on the all-tournament team. Molan and Wagner both deserve to be there. Took the #1 seed to a tight game, took the #5 seed to a tight game. Wagner is only a freshman, and likely won't get a spot, but he deserves one, as does Molan.

Change my mind.

3) Teams that play for regional titles drive to the basket and kick out for 3s.

Teams that make the state tournament take mid-range j's.

Teams that win state tournaments make mid-range j's.

You still have to score from 8 to 15 feet to win big games.

Change my mind.

4) The first round was excellent, and the tournament overall has been very good. The shotclock has improved basketball at the state tournament level of play.

Change my mind.

5) It's time for high school basketball to adopt and embellishment technical. If I see a certain kid throw his head back and flop again, I'm going to throw up.

Change my mind.
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Re: State Tournament "Change My Mind"

Postby woodchuck10 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:21 pm

5) #1 from Bishop Ryan and screaming like a banshee when trying to draw a charge. Does Feller coach that? I say make it like a delay of game penalty. First time is a warning for both teams then next time it’s a common foul, idk about calling it a technical foul.
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Re: State Tournament "Change My Mind"

Postby Sportsrube » Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:18 pm

I'll take it one step further - I wish officials would put an end to the theatrics of coaches on the sidelines. If I had a $1 for every time the Thompson Assistant coach threw his hands in the air, palms up while looking at officials last night I could have one very happy St. Patrick's Day!
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Re: State Tournament "Change My Mind"

Postby heimer » Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:38 pm

I'm Irish. My St. Patrick's Day will be happy, no matter what.
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Re: State Tournament "Change My Mind"

Postby heimer » Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:42 pm

And, there may have been a reason for the assistant coach's mannerisms last night. Just sayin.......
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Re: State Tournament "Change My Mind"

Postby Sportsrube » Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:21 pm

heimer wrote:I'm Irish. My St. Patrick's Day will be happy, no matter what.



Same with me.
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Re: State Tournament "Change My Mind"

Postby Sticks11 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:34 pm

heimer wrote:A thread of observations from the B, meant only to inspire dialogue, not make you think I'm smarter than anyone (even though....... :lol: )

1) If only two players from Shiloh Christian are all-tournament, Caanan Fagerland is the other one. Six 3s last night, and the scoring he did day 1 against Beulah came in big possessions where they needed a basket.

If there's only two, its Young and Fagerland, or Mitzel and Fagerland. Fagerland is one of the two.

Change my mind.

2) Ellendale is in the 7th place game, but they deserve two players on the all-tournament team. Molan and Wagner both deserve to be there. Took the #1 seed to a tight game, took the #5 seed to a tight game. Wagner is only a freshman, and likely won't get a spot, but he deserves one, as does Molan.

Change my mind.

3) Teams that play for regional titles drive to the basket and kick out for 3s.

Teams that make the state tournament take mid-range j's.

Teams that win state tournaments make mid-range j's.

You still have to score from 8 to 15 feet to win big games.

Change my mind.

4) The first round was excellent, and the tournament overall has been very good. The shotclock has improved basketball at the state tournament level of play.

Change my mind.

5) It's time for high school basketball to adopt and embellishment technical. If I see a certain kid throw his head back and flop again, I'm going to throw up.

Change my mind.


Not that I don’t agree with the other points, but #5 needs to become a reality. I’m thinking the same thing Woodchuck said. Just don’t like seeing kids rewarded for overacting. Sometimes it’s comical.
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Re: State Tournament "Change My Mind"

Postby aNDkid91 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:47 am

#5...I am getting so tired of kids getting called for a foul, travel, whatever and then giving the refs a“what??”, then look at the coach, throw their hands up, roll their eyes...it makes the game hard to watch.
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Re: State Tournament "Change My Mind"

Postby jimor » Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:14 am

I agree. i could name a couple of kids in the tourney, that are very talented and played exceptionally, but left me remembering their antics, ( talking to the refs, rolling eyes, running down the court with a finger in the air after they hit a big shot(in my eyes taunting)), and not entertained by their ability.
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Re: State Tournament "Change My Mind"

Postby RedDirtFan » Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:12 pm

I don't think there's any debate about any of those points, to be honest. The one about how teams score and how far it gets them is kind of convoluted, but let's just sum it up like this: If a team is one-dimensional offensively, that team will hit its ceiling at some point. With the evolution of basketball (if you can call eliminating refined skill in favor of efficiency "evolution") over the past 20 years, the teams that have talent but don't see State tournaments tend to either have trouble making threes or making contested shots at the rim. Teams have to be able to do both if they want to reach their full potential. The mid range game is nonexistent save for the occasional individual outlier. You don't find teams that can hit them--you find players that can hit them. Those players tend to have the best fundamental shooting form on their respective teams.

In response to the individual upset about kids having emotional reactions to calls--you're completely out of line. They're allowed to react, so long as they don't say disrespectful things to the officials or are overly-demonstrative (which they weren't--there wasn't one instance that warranted a technical foul that I saw, so good on the officials for not calling any that I know of). It's a non-issue. Basketball is an incredibly difficult game to officiate, made even more difficult by the subjective interpretations of some rules (block/charge relating to what exactly "legal guarding position" is, for example) and the fact that a non-three pointer possession now most definitely ends in a contested shot at the basket or a turnover, and each will almost always come with at least minimal contact. These guys can either call everything, have kids fouling out, and have games lasting longer than necessary, or they can let the kids play (which they should). The kids will have visible reactions sometimes. Big deal.
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Re: State Tournament "Change My Mind"

Postby aNDkid91 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:55 pm

RedDirtFan wrote:In response to the individual upset about kids having emotional reactions to calls--you're completely out of line. They're allowed to react, so long as they don't say disrespectful things to the officials or are overly-demonstrative (which they weren't--there wasn't one instance that warranted a technical foul that I saw, so good on the officials for not calling any that I know of). It's a non-issue. Basketball is an incredibly difficult game to officiate, made even more difficult by the subjective interpretations of some rules (block/charge relating to what exactly "legal guarding position" is, for example) and the fact that a non-three pointer possession now most definitely ends in a contested shot at the basket or a turnover, and each will almost always come with at least minimal contact. These guys can either call everything, have kids fouling out, and have games lasting longer than necessary, or they can let the kids play (which they should). The kids will have visible reactions sometimes. Big deal.


Not sure if I’m the person you are referring to as others have commented their lack of enjoyment when watching a player have an emotional reaction but this has nothing to do with officiating and how it’s done. This is about little Susie or Johnny acting like the foul couldn’t possibly be theirs even though the player they fouled is on the floor and it was just themselves under the basket. The loud “what” and eye rolling, walking away without helping a player up...it’s called sportsmanship and something Fred Friddley commented on during last nights championship game. I can understand having some reaction but acting like a two year old? No
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Re: State Tournament "Change My Mind"

Postby bisonation6 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:16 pm

Sportsrube wrote:I'll take it one step further - I wish officials would put an end to the theatrics of coaches on the sidelines. If I had a $1 for every time the Thompson Assistant coach threw his hands in the air, palms up while looking at officials last night I could have one very happy St. Patrick's Day!


NFHS has really cracked down on assistant coaches in baseball. If let’s say the first base coach argues a call, it’s an automatic ejection. This should become an automatic technical in basketball as well.
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Re: State Tournament "Change My Mind"

Postby ndlionsfan » Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:58 pm

Do they give out sportsmanship banners from the state tournament anymore? I know we have a few hanging in our gym, but there was one year we went to state and did not receive one and that's kind of embarrassing to me. I know they used to be announced on finals night along with the other awards. It was based on reactions of players on the court and bench, how coaches handled themselves on the sidelines, and how the fans displayed sportsmanship from the stands. I was at the games last night and thought one team's fans were ridiculous arguing nearly every call. I also agree with some players that put their hands up after every foul called on them and got tired of seeing it.
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Re: State Tournament "Change My Mind"

Postby bisonation6 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:55 pm

ndlionsfan wrote:Do they give out sportsmanship banners from the state tournament anymore? I know we have a few hanging in our gym, but there was one year we went to state and did not receive one and that's kind of embarrassing to me. I know they used to be announced on finals night along with the other awards. It was based on reactions of players on the court and bench, how coaches handled themselves on the sidelines, and how the fans displayed sportsmanship from the stands. I was at the games last night and thought one team's fans were ridiculous arguing nearly every call. I also agree with some players that put their hands up after every foul called on them and got tired of seeing it.


I was thinking of the sportsmanship/spirit award last night during the ceremony. They must not do it anymore and for good reason cause as we’ve already discussed, very little is on display towards the officials.
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Re: State Tournament "Change My Mind"

Postby BISONFAN18 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:59 pm

I don't think a new rule (technical for embellishment) will accomplish much. 1.) officials will be reluctant to call it. 2.)officials could clean it up by just talking to players and coaches if they chose. The politics of basketball is real. Things are much easier to let people slide and stay popular.

It is already a T for "faking being fouled". I have only seen it called once. It was a block/charge situation where the defender threw himself 5 feet backwards onto the floor without being contacted by the offense. The official actually laughed a little and gave the whistle and T signal.
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Re: State Tournament "Change My Mind"

Postby Abbykate » Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:58 pm

What I saw at this tournament was embarassing!! The way the privates fans and players were treated was hostile at times. These kids worked just as hard as any other players at the tourney. The fans were there to cheer on their teams. I know. People "hate" the privates I get it, but these are just kids and they have no control over what class they play in. Come on North Dakota we can do better than this.
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Re: State Tournament "Change My Mind"

Postby aNDkid91 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 5:20 pm

BISONFAN18 wrote:I don't think a new rule (technical for embellishment) will accomplish much. 1.) officials will be reluctant to call it. 2.)officials could clean it up by just talking to players and coaches if they chose. The politics of basketball is real. Things are much easier to let people slide and stay popular.

It is already a T for "faking being fouled". I have only seen it called once. It was a block/charge situation where the defender threw himself 5 feet backwards onto the floor without being contacted by the offense. The official actually laughed a little and gave the whistle and T signal.


I’ve been at a game where a player was “T” because of unsportsmanlike conduct.
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Re: State Tournament "Change My Mind"

Postby heimer » Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:00 pm

Abbykate wrote:What I saw at this tournament was embarassing!! The way the privates fans and players were treated was hostile at times. These kids worked just as hard as any other players at the tourney. The fans were there to cheer on their teams. I know. People "hate" the privates I get it, but these are just kids and they have no control over what class they play in. Come on North Dakota we can do better than this.


Three things:

1) none of the athletes should be treated poorly. They are kids, and they likely had nothing to do with the current political affairs of high school sports.

2) that being said, get used to it. Until we see change, its gonna happen. The state tournament is the only arena where fans can show their displeasure and the NDHSAA has to listen.

3) if its really bad, I'm sure, if you moved up, you would inherit an entire arena of fans in that first round matchup with Davies or Century. :lol:
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Re: State Tournament "Change My Mind"

Postby The Schwab » Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:33 pm

I will say this in response to the private school situation:

I, like most people, take issue with private schools being in class B. However, last night I was very disappointed in the crowd when 55 from Shiloh fouled out. If the student sections want to cheer because a kids out of the game, that’s fine. If his teams section wants to cheer, it’s not as fine but I can live with it. When the entire rest of the gym made up of adults starts going crazy because a player who plays for a private school fouls out, we owe that young man better. He finished his career with a very impressive state tournament run and the last thing he hears is a crowd full of adults, who should know better, mocking him and waving goodbye in a taunting manner.

If you want to holler at an official, they’re adults, they can handle it. If you want to holler at a coach, they’re adults they can handle it. Please remember that the players are high school kids. On behalf of ND basketball I would like to apologize to Mr. Young, we can do better and you played one heck of a tournament.
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Re: State Tournament "Change My Mind"

Postby bisonation6 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:16 pm

The Schwab wrote:I will say this in response to the private school situation:

I, like most people, take issue with private schools being in class B. However, last night I was very disappointed in the crowd when 55 from Shiloh fouled out. If the student sections want to cheer because a kids out of the game, that’s fine. If his teams section wants to cheer, it’s not as fine but I can live with it. When the entire rest of the gym made up of adults starts going crazy because a player who plays for a private school fouls out, we owe that young man better. He finished his career with a very impressive state tournament run and the last thing he hears is a crowd full of adults, who should know better, mocking him and waving goodbye in a taunting manner.

If you want to holler at an official, they’re adults, they can handle it. If you want to holler at a coach, they’re adults they can handle it. Please remember that the players are high school kids. On behalf of ND basketball I would like to apologize to Mr. Young, we can do better and you played one heck of a tournament.


This...So much this. Thank you. I was thinking the same thing, but sadly most people seem to feel it’s okay to treat the Shiloh and Bishop Ryan players differently.
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Re: State Tournament "Change My Mind"

Postby aNDkid91 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:21 pm

Completely agree Schwab! I felt bad for the kid the way it was but then to have the crowd act the way they did...uncalled for.
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Re: State Tournament "Change My Mind"

Postby Abbykate » Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:26 pm

Thank you guys!!! No kid deserved what he got...
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Re: State Tournament "Change My Mind"

Postby Abbykate » Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:33 pm

heimer wrote:
Abbykate wrote:What I saw at this tournament was embarassing!! The way the privates fans and players were treated was hostile at times. These kids worked just as hard as any other players at the tourney. The fans were there to cheer on their teams. I know. People "hate" the privates I get it, but these are just kids and they have no control over what class they play in. Come on North Dakota we can do better than this.[/quote
Three things:

1) none of the athletes should be treated poorly. They are kids, and they likely had nothing to do with the current political affairs of high school sports.

2) that being said, get used to it. Until we see change, its gonna happen. The state tournament is the only arena where fans can show their displeasure and the NDHSAA has to listen.

3) if its really bad, I'm sure, if you moved up, you would inherit an entire arena of fans in that first round matchup with Davies or Century. :lol:

How the crowds acted was not okay. These kids don't deserve it they are just kids. Every kid in that tournament worked their butts off to get there. Every one of them deserves our praise not our hate. As far as moving up the kids nor the fans have any control over it.
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Re: State Tournament "Change My Mind"

Postby heimer » Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:01 pm

Abbykate, I agree that kids should not be treated badly.

I also agree with The Schwab.

My question is: are you going to do something about this? You have come here and voiced your concern. Perhaps it's time to also voice it with the administration at the private school you may be affiliated with (if you are affiliated with one).

Those adminiatrators are part of the problem. They are putting those kids in a bad position with the current system. I have not heard of a single private school administrator working toward a three-class system. They like their trips to state.

I'll make no excuses for how kids are treated. The athletes deserve nothing of the sort. Maybe its time the private schools take a more active role in improving the experiences of their athletes. That's a part of the job they are not doing.
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Re: State Tournament "Change My Mind"

Postby bisonation6 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:03 pm

heimer wrote:Abbykate, I agree that kids should not be treated badly.

I also agree with The Schwab.

My question is: are you going to do something about this? You have come here and voiced your concern. Perhaps it's time to also voice it with the administration at the private school you may be affiliated with (if you are affiliated with one).

Those adminiatrators are part of the problem. They are putting those kids in a bad position with the current system. I have not heard of a single private school administrator working toward a three-class system. They like their trips to state.

I'll make no excuses for how kids are treated. The athletes deserve nothing of the sort. Maybe its time the private schools take a more active role in improving the experiences of their athletes. That's a part of the job they are not doing.


Don’t you need like 200 students 9-12 to even opt up?
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