BBB Seeding Thoughts

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Re: BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby heimer » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:08 am

They won't, and it's not like they got the short end last time. Langdon did.

Know something before you spew.

Also, on the Mandaree vs Powers Lake thing, I'm sure either will represent their region quite well. I thought i saw on Twitter that Mandaree won in OT, thus the confusion.

Can't wait to see Beulah, Ryan, and Shiloh in the same half so we can't have an all-bigs or all-privates final. Just gotta make sure we don't spark that conversation again.

That's what you're hearing in the office right now, I'm sure........
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Re: BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby defense1st » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:17 am

Now with most of the games decided I'll take a shot:

1. Thompson
2. Richland
3. Shiloh
4/5. Bishop Ryan/New Rockford-Sheyenne

Beulah
Powers Lake
Carrington (assumption)

I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Beulah sneak into a seed. Also wouldn't be surprised to see the coaches reward Powers Lake with one for as well as they've been playing.
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Re: BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby packers21 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:24 am

heimer wrote:They won't, and it's not like they got the short end last time. Langdon did.

Know something before you spew.

Also, on the Mandaree vs Powers Lake thing, I'm sure either will represent their region quite well. I thought i saw on Twitter that Mandaree won in OT, thus the confusion.

Can't wait to see Beulah, Ryan, and Shiloh in the same half so we can't have an all-bigs or all-privates final. Just gotta make sure we don't spark that conversation again.

That's what you're hearing in the office right now, I'm sure........



I spew all I want, theres not a person that comes on here and spews more and knows less than you.
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Re: BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby scc » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:27 am

1. Thompson
2. Richland
3. Shiloh
4. NR-S
5. Ryan
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Re: BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby Sniper » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:32 am

1. Thompson
2. Bismarck
3. Richland
4. Minot-1
5. NR-S
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Re: BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby heimer » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:33 am

packers21 wrote:
heimer wrote:They won't, and it's not like they got the short end last time. Langdon did.

Know something before you spew.

Also, on the Mandaree vs Powers Lake thing, I'm sure either will represent their region quite well. I thought i saw on Twitter that Mandaree won in OT, thus the confusion.

Can't wait to see Beulah, Ryan, and Shiloh in the same half so we can't have an all-bigs or all-privates final. Just gotta make sure we don't spark that conversation again.

That's what you're hearing in the office right now, I'm sure........



I spew all I want, theres not a person that comes on here and spews more and knows less than you.


You didn't even know who got hosed in the girls B, so there's that.

The spew part, you're probably right. The knowledge part, I'll go up against you anytime.

Have a nice day!
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Re: BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby packers21 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:38 am

heimer wrote:
packers21 wrote:
heimer wrote:They won't, and it's not like they got the short end last time. Langdon did.

Know something before you spew.

Also, on the Mandaree vs Powers Lake thing, I'm sure either will represent their region quite well. I thought i saw on Twitter that Mandaree won in OT, thus the confusion.

Can't wait to see Beulah, Ryan, and Shiloh in the same half so we can't have an all-bigs or all-privates final. Just gotta make sure we don't spark that conversation again.

That's what you're hearing in the office right now, I'm sure........



I spew all I want, theres not a person that comes on here and spews more and knows less than you.


You didn't even know who got hosed in the girls B, so there's that.

The spew part, you're probably right. The knowledge part, I'll go up against you anytime.

Have a nice day!


You're at the state tournament you have to beat everyone. I know who played who, you cried bc Kindred played Thompson round 2, that's what I was referencing. Figured you could pick up on the sacarasm.
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Re: BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby The Schwab » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:47 am

Heimer, these were your words not mine when referencing the seeding of the girls state tournament:

"I think a human element is necessary, but data needs to be part of the equation. It just wasn't this time."

Rankings according to North-Dakota Scores. NET QRF (Computer) (Teams in Tournament)
1. LEM
3. Kidder County
4. Rugby
7. Trenton
8. Thompson
10. Kindred
11. Hettinger-Scranton
17. Bismarck

Final Class B Girls Poll (Human) (Teams in Tournament)
1. Kidder County
2. LEM
4. Thompson
5. Hettinger Scranton
6. Trenton
7. Kindred
14. Rugby
NR. Bismarck

If we average those numerical rankings we end up with:
1. LEM (1.5)
2. Kidder County (2)
3. Thompson (6)
4. Trenton (6.5)
5. Hettinger-Scranton (8)
6. Kindred (8.5)
7. Rugby (9)
8. Bismarck (Not higher than 16th)

Not trying to hijack the boys seeding thoughts, but it was pretty good seeding based on a mix of human and computer.
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Re: BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby heimer » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:51 am

I cried because it should have been a title game, not a semi-final.

Just to be clear, Langdon was the team that got screwed, not Thompson.

Langdon deserved to be playing at night.

Oh, and there was collusion.

And Kindred not being seeded was a complete miss. Furthermore, the QRF formula is always up for debate. Reference the Minnesota preps threads that constantly ask for answers, and do not get them.
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Re: BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby The Schwab » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:56 am

heimer wrote:I cried because it should have been a title game, not a semi-final.

Just to be clear, Langdon was the team that got screwed, not Thompson.

Langdon deserved to be playing at night.

Oh, and there was collusion.

And Kindred not being seeded was a complete miss. Furthermore, the QRF formula is always up for debate. Reference the Minnesota preps threads that constantly ask for answers, and do not get them.


Actually it should have been a first round game if they seeded 1-8 like they should :wink:
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Re: BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby Fletcher » Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:03 pm

I think we've all watched enough BB to know that crazy things happen at tournaments. That's part of why we love playoff basketball.

HOWEVER, when you seed 5 teams for an 8 team tournament and not one of those top 5 teams makes the championship game....I think it's safe to say there was a complete whiff on your seeding and the process should probably be re-examined.

It also opens the door for these kinds of conspiracy theories and talk of collusion. Not saying that's what happened but that's the result when you use a flawed system.
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Re: BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby ndlionsfan » Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:10 pm

Fletcher wrote:I think we've all watched enough BB to know that crazy things happen at tournaments. That's part of why we love playoff basketball.

HOWEVER, when you seed 5 teams for an 8 team tournament and not one of those top 5 teams makes the championship game....I think it's safe to say there was a complete whiff on your seeding and the process should probably be re-examined.

It also opens the door for these kinds of conspiracy theories and talk of collusion. Not saying that's what happened but that's the result when you use a flawed system.


I wouldn't say there was a complete whiff. It was a difficult tournament to seed. Two undefeated teams that most thought weren't the strongest in the state, but how do you not seed an undefeated team high? Teams with some early season losses against tough competition, so hard to gauge where to seed them.
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Re: BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:11 pm

I feel that the girls seeding was tougher as you had 7 quality teams that were relatively even. I would have seeded differently from seeing 7 of the 8 play during the year BUT there is no perfect system for anything in sports because anything can happen on any given night.
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Re: BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby Fletcher » Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:42 pm

I agree there were 6 to 7 very strong teams in the Girl's tournament, but that's not all that unusual.

If my math is right, the straight probability for 2 of the 3 unseeded teams making it to the championship game is a little better than 10%.

The actual odds for 2 out of 3 unseeded teams making it to the championship are probably a lot less than that.

So yes, I think it was a complete whiff.
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Re: BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby Thundersnow » Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:44 pm

Fletcher wrote:I think we've all watched enough BB to know that crazy things happen at tournaments. That's part of why we love playoff basketball.

HOWEVER, when you seed 5 teams for an 8 team tournament and not one of those top 5 teams makes the championship game....I think it's safe to say there was a complete whiff on your seeding and the process should probably be re-examined.

It also opens the door for these kinds of conspiracy theories and talk of collusion. Not saying that's what happened but that's the result when you use a flawed system.


"Flawed system"? By this logic, the men's NCAA basketball tournament uses a flawed system. To me, seeding doesn't automatically result in the 2 best teams playing for the championship every year. I could be wrong, but I thought when seeding was first introduced to the State B tournaments the main goal was to not have the 2 best teams playing in the first round. This happened multiple times in both the boys and girls tournaments back when we had predetermined region vs. region matchups. Is the current plan perfect? No. Did it prevent the 2 best teams from playing on Thursday? Yes. Could you imagine the uproar if Region 1 and 2 were predetermined to play against each other in the 2:45 game on Thursday?
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Re: BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby Fletcher » Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:48 pm

Thundersnow wrote:
Fletcher wrote:I think we've all watched enough BB to know that crazy things happen at tournaments. That's part of why we love playoff basketball.

HOWEVER, when you seed 5 teams for an 8 team tournament and not one of those top 5 teams makes the championship game....I think it's safe to say there was a complete whiff on your seeding and the process should probably be re-examined.

It also opens the door for these kinds of conspiracy theories and talk of collusion. Not saying that's what happened but that's the result when you use a flawed system.


"Flawed system"? By this logic, the men's NCAA basketball tournament uses a flawed system. To me, seeding doesn't automatically result in the 2 best teams playing for the championship every year. I could be wrong, but I thought when seeding was first introduced to the State B tournaments the main goal was to not have the 2 best teams playing in the first round. This happened multiple times in both the boys and girls tournaments back when we had predetermined region vs. region matchups. Is the current plan perfect? No. Did it prevent the 2 best teams from playing on Thursday? Yes. Could you imagine the uproar if Region 1 and 2 were predetermined to play against each other in the 2:45 game on Thursday?


I'm not arguing to revert back to having predetermined Regions playing each other. The current seeding process is much better than that.

I'm also not saying seeding will or should result in the two best teams making the championship.

I'm saying they missed it badly this year and rather than having coaches vote and seed their own tournament, another process should be considered.
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Re: BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby Fletcher » Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:51 pm

Also, the NCAA tournament has a selection committee that seeds the teams. It doesn't have the coaches that are in the tournament vote on where other teams should be seeded. So not a valid analogy.
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Re: BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:03 pm

I’ve stated a committee would be a smart option and use their votes to seeding before. Less chance for heimer’s favorite word right now, ‘collusion’ (don’t think it happened...R8 doesn’t know R1 and vice versa...voting is tough when you don’t know the teams; becomes a guess and that’s not fair to anyone)
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Re: BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby winner-within » Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:04 pm

-maybe the 2 "best teams" (hate that reference) played last night in Region 2, let alone next Thursday
-maybe there are 10-12 teams throughout the State that would have given the same show next week
-Seeding? QRF? all hogwash..make your schedule, play the games go to the tournament, play your games and see who wins.......although there is a huge element of "who should be in the ship" (in all tourns)
going on...sadly worse than its ever been....
-Collusion? from the White house to the smallest town in ND, just the way it is!
Last edited by winner-within on Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby Flip » Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:08 pm

Fletcher wrote:Also, the NCAA tournament has a selection committee that seeds the teams. It doesn't have the coaches that are in the tournament vote on where other teams should be seeded.

True.
So not a valid analogy.

It was fine.
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Re: BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby Thundersnow » Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:11 pm

Upsets are a part of sports, especially tournaments. The NCAA tournament uses a selection committee whose sole job is to rank all the teams and, by your logic, get the 4 best teams to the Final 4. But after the bracket is set, that's when the actual tournament begins. Some years you get #11 seeds like Loyola-Chicago, VCU and George Mason in the Final 4. One year VCU played an 8 or 9 seed Butler in the Final 4. By having a 9 vs. 11 in the Final Four, the selection committee "completely whiffed" using your terminology.

I'm glad you're not advocating for us to go back to predetermined region vs. region matchups. But I have a feeling you and many other people would be outraged by whatever seeding a ND Class B selection committee would come out with. I'd be fine with there being a selection committee, but it would not end the complaining, conspiracy theories, and collusion allegations
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Re: BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby Flip » Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:19 pm

Run4Fun2009 wrote:I’ve stated a committee would be a smart option and use their votes to seeding before. Less chance for heimer’s favorite word right now, ‘collusion’ (don’t think it happened...R8 doesn’t know R1 and vice versa...voting is tough when you don’t know the teams; becomes a guess and that’s not fair to anyone)

Unless you left it up to the media do you think they could find people to do this?
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Re: BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby woodchuck10 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:55 pm

Thundersnow wrote:Upsets are a part of sports, especially tournaments. The NCAA tournament uses a selection committee whose sole job is to rank all the teams and, by your logic, get the 4 best teams to the Final 4. But after the bracket is set, that's when the actual tournament begins. Some years you get #11 seeds like Loyola-Chicago, VCU and George Mason in the Final 4. One year VCU played an 8 or 9 seed Butler in the Final 4. By having a 9 vs. 11 in the Final Four, the selection committee "completely whiffed" using your terminology.

I'm glad you're not advocating for us to go back to predetermined region vs. region matchups. But I have a feeling you and many other people would be outraged by whatever seeding a ND Class B selection committee would come out with. I'd be fine with there being a selection committee, but it would not end the complaining, conspiracy theories, and collusion allegations


I’ll advocate for that as long regions 1,2,4,6 always play 3, 5, 7, 8 in the first round. 6 and 7 could probably rotate.
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Re: BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:09 pm

Flip wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:I’ve stated a committee would be a smart option and use their votes to seeding before. Less chance for heimer’s favorite word right now, ‘collusion’ (don’t think it happened...R8 doesn’t know R1 and vice versa...voting is tough when you don’t know the teams; becomes a guess and that’s not fair to anyone)

Unless you left it up to the media do you think they could find people to do this?


I'm sure you could find 4-6 people to do this...media or not; unbiased basketball followers. In theory, I think it could be better then the coaches voting.
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Re: BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby NodakQ2 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:15 pm

Run4Fun2009 wrote:
Flip wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:I’ve stated a committee would be a smart option and use their votes to seeding before. Less chance for heimer’s favorite word right now, ‘collusion’ (don’t think it happened...R8 doesn’t know R1 and vice versa...voting is tough when you don’t know the teams; becomes a guess and that’s not fair to anyone)

Unless you left it up to the media do you think they could find people to do this?


I'm sure you could find 4-6 people to do this...media or not; unbiased basketball followers. In theory, I think it could be better then the coaches voting.


Agreed...I’m thrilled the State made the step to seed. Now, the methodology needs to be tweaked. Having participating coaches vote breeds bias, intentional or not. I’d favor a QRF to decide even over a committee to eliminate the “human element” all together, but either method would be better than the current.
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