BBB Seeding Thoughts

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BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:24 pm

What’s people’s takes on this...I know there will be more opinions after Thursday’s games are completed and that is fine...

My thoughts:
Regions 3 & 8 will be unseeded regardless of any other outcomes; Region 7 also unless Shiloh or Bishop Ryan get upset.

1-Seed - Region 2 winner
2-Seed - Four Winds-Minnewaukan (I know Shiloh beat them but I still think they’ll be seeded higher then Shiloh)
3-Seed - Richland
4-Seed - Shiloh
5-Seed - Bishop Ryan

If NRS wins over FWM and/or Kindred wins over Richland then there would be some shifting BUT I think those teams receive a seed as well; if Beulah prevails in R7 then seeding could get a bit more intriguing with a Kindred and/or NRS winning.

Just my thoughts...
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Re: BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby The Schwab » Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:04 pm

Run4Fun2009 wrote:What’s people’s takes on this...I know there will be more opinions after Thursday’s games are completed and that is fine...

My thoughts:
Regions 3 & 8 will be unseeded regardless of any other outcomes; Region 7 also unless Shiloh or Bishop Ryan get upset.

1-Seed - Region 2 winner
2-Seed - Four Winds-Minnewaukan (I know Shiloh beat them but I still think they’ll be seeded higher then Shiloh)
3-Seed - Richland
4-Seed - Shiloh
5-Seed - Bishop Ryan

If NRS wins over FWM and/or Kindred wins over Richland then there would be some shifting BUT I think those teams receive a seed as well; if Beulah prevails in R7 then seeding could get a bit more intriguing with a Kindred and/or NRS winning.

Just my thoughts...


I think Beulah could make a case for being seeded if they come out of 7
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Re: BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:25 pm

The Schwab wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:What’s people’s takes on this...I know there will be more opinions after Thursday’s games are completed and that is fine...

My thoughts:
Regions 3 & 8 will be unseeded regardless of any other outcomes; Region 7 also unless Shiloh or Bishop Ryan get upset.

1-Seed - Region 2 winner
2-Seed - Four Winds-Minnewaukan (I know Shiloh beat them but I still think they’ll be seeded higher then Shiloh)
3-Seed - Richland
4-Seed - Shiloh
5-Seed - Bishop Ryan

If NRS wins over FWM and/or Kindred wins over Richland then there would be some shifting BUT I think those teams receive a seed as well; if Beulah prevails in R7 then seeding could get a bit more intriguing with a Kindred and/or NRS winning.

Just my thoughts...


I think Beulah could make a case for being seeded if they come out of 7


If coaches use the QRF as a tool, I definitely could see that occurring...R3 & R8 are only ‘givens’ IMO
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Re: BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby Sniper » Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:25 pm

Run4Fun2009 wrote:What’s people’s takes on this...I know there will be more opinions after Thursday’s games are completed and that is fine...

My thoughts:
Regions 3 & 8 will be unseeded regardless of any other outcomes; Region 7 also unless Shiloh or Bishop Ryan get upset.

1-Seed - Region 2 winner
2-Seed - Four Winds-Minnewaukan (I know Shiloh beat them but I still think they’ll be seeded higher then Shiloh)
3-Seed - Richland
4-Seed - Shiloh
5-Seed - Bishop Ryan

If NRS wins over FWM and/or Kindred wins over Richland then there would be some shifting BUT I think those teams receive a seed as well; if Beulah prevails in R7 then seeding could get a bit more intriguing with a Kindred and/or NRS winning.

Just my thoughts...


I would flip Richland and Bismarck but that is probably a toss up. Beulah will be a tough first round match-up if they get in. I do not think Beulah will get seeded because of their 3-3 start. I would guess that most of the teams that have been seeded in the past have 20 or more wins, Beulah would be at 19 wins if they make it.
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Re: BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby hoophoophoop » Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:22 pm

Sniper wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:What’s people’s takes on this...I know there will be more opinions after Thursday’s games are completed and that is fine...

My thoughts:
Regions 3 & 8 will be unseeded regardless of any other outcomes; Region 7 also unless Shiloh or Bishop Ryan get upset.

1-Seed - Region 2 winner
2-Seed - Four Winds-Minnewaukan (I know Shiloh beat them but I still think they’ll be seeded higher then Shiloh)
3-Seed - Richland
4-Seed - Shiloh
5-Seed - Bishop Ryan

If NRS wins over FWM and/or Kindred wins over Richland then there would be some shifting BUT I think those teams receive a seed as well; if Beulah prevails in R7 then seeding could get a bit more intriguing with a Kindred and/or NRS winning.

Just my thoughts...


I would flip Richland and Bismarck but that is probably a toss up. Beulah will be a tough first round match-up if they get in. I do not think Beulah will get seeded because of their 3-3 start. I would guess that most of the teams that have been seeded in the past have 20 or more wins, Beulah would be at 19 wins if they make it.



Reason for flipping Richland and SHILOH
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Re: BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:39 pm

hoophoophoop wrote:
Sniper wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:What’s people’s takes on this...I know there will be more opinions after Thursday’s games are completed and that is fine...

My thoughts:
Regions 3 & 8 will be unseeded regardless of any other outcomes; Region 7 also unless Shiloh or Bishop Ryan get upset.

1-Seed - Region 2 winner
2-Seed - Four Winds-Minnewaukan (I know Shiloh beat them but I still think they’ll be seeded higher then Shiloh)
3-Seed - Richland
4-Seed - Shiloh
5-Seed - Bishop Ryan

If NRS wins over FWM and/or Kindred wins over Richland then there would be some shifting BUT I think those teams receive a seed as well; if Beulah prevails in R7 then seeding could get a bit more intriguing with a Kindred and/or NRS winning.

Just my thoughts...


I would flip Richland and Bismarck but that is probably a toss up. Beulah will be a tough first round match-up if they get in. I do not think Beulah will get seeded because of their 3-3 start. I would guess that most of the teams that have been seeded in the past have 20 or more wins, Beulah would be at 19 wins if they make it.



Reason for flipping Richland and SHILOH


Again I could see it if QRF is used as a tool...I’ve seen nearly every team left play at least once; however I could see 2-4 be in any order.
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Re: BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby Sniper » Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:40 pm

Run4Fun2009 wrote:
hoophoophoop wrote:
Sniper wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:What’s people’s takes on this...I know there will be more opinions after Thursday’s games are completed and that is fine...

My thoughts:
Regions 3 & 8 will be unseeded regardless of any other outcomes; Region 7 also unless Shiloh or Bishop Ryan get upset.

1-Seed - Region 2 winner
2-Seed - Four Winds-Minnewaukan (I know Shiloh beat them but I still think they’ll be seeded higher then Shiloh)
3-Seed - Richland
4-Seed - Shiloh
5-Seed - Bishop Ryan

If NRS wins over FWM and/or Kindred wins over Richland then there would be some shifting BUT I think those teams receive a seed as well; if Beulah prevails in R7 then seeding could get a bit more intriguing with a Kindred and/or NRS winning.

Just my thoughts...


I would flip Richland and Bismarck but that is probably a toss up. Beulah will be a tough first round match-up if they get in. I do not think Beulah will get seeded because of their 3-3 start. I would guess that most of the teams that have been seeded in the past have 20 or more wins, Beulah would be at 19 wins if they make it.



Reason for flipping Richland and SHILOH


Again I could see it if QRF is used as a tool...I’ve seen nearly every team left play at least once; however I could see 2-4 be in any order.


QRF ranks Bismarck higher while the polls ranked Richland higher.
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Re: BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby justplayalready » Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:39 am

This would be much easier after tonight, but here goes...

I see terms such as QRF, polls, Strength, and wins being thrown out...pretty narrow view to seed isn't it??What about seating charts, distance of travel, media fodder, etc????

Game one has to be Shiloh against Ryan...this could be a Saturday night matchup, so some prevention early. Shiloh would be a #2 seed. Need this game first as TV can show crowd building strategically...the crowd exiting and the little remaining the last two years for the big city teams has been too damaging & need to put an end to it. Creative camera placement and first game should be enough to outweigh a decision that would risk having two privates in the final...Put both fan bases on same side as camera, I think the MSU dome and B NDHSAA ticket policy this year would allow a switch. Heck they could even release several rows at the floor for those teams to allow regular fans to that got screwed getting their reserved seats. Have Ryan walk over the entire school before game time and focus TV on their student section...again good TV angles help this out.

Game 2 to would have HCV...If Dickinson would get in, put them in as a number #3...The thought of an unseeded team going for their third title in a row would be too much to contain. I would cover the media tables in plastic...Also HCV will have a huge fan base, I'd think they could get most of them there for the 2nd game, I would think B day would be some type of holiday in Hillsboro by now...again the building crowd. Put HCV students behind Bismarck..I know this increases a chance of having a private in the final, but its a logical chance to take. Any HCV fans that feel they should not be an underdog and they may be the best team in the state...hint at collusion from the west...now go beat those privates.

Game three FWM as #1 seed...prob against R 8 team. FWM fan base is better for night session, start the night out with good energy, good crowd good TV. FWM GA crowd will grow each night they play on...no brainer here

Final game have R1 team #4 against R3 #5...should have enough fan base as well as others wanting to stay for game, keep the first night session going well.

I could see flopping the seeds for the night session...such as making FW a #4 and R1 #1. but night session remains strong however it is set up...

So
FW #1
Bismarck #2
Dickinson #3
R1 #4
R3 #5
MInot #6
HCV #7
R8 #8

Anything other than this, if these are the teams of course, would seem to not follow any logical decision making and would reek of collusion.IMHO!
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Re: BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby airmail » Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:15 am

This was posted in the GBB forum - it specifically lists the boys teams before region tournaments started. Personally, I think we should start moving in this direction or something similar. Perhaps some tweaks are necessary, but I think it's worthy of discussion.

woodchuck10 wrote:The seeding before state is flawed. Doesn’t take into account what you had to get there. We should seed the regions 1-8 before regions start. Take the top 4 QRF or another formula before regionals and seed or rank the Regions and bracket them that way.

Using the boys right now as an example:
Region 1 - 345.4
Region 2 - 387.4
Region 3 - 312.4
Region 4 - 354.7
Region 5 - 322.4
Region 6 - 361.6
Region 7 - 342
Region 8 - 334.4

#1 Region 2 champ vs #8 Region 3 champ
#4 Region 1 champ vs #5 Region 7 champ
#2 Region 6 champ vs #7 Region 5 champ
#3 Region 4 champ vs #6 Region 8 champ

Now on Thursday night you know who you play when you play after winning the region.
Use some kind of formula, QRF or the like. Stop expecting coaches to rank teams they haven’t seen all year. Rank the regions not the teams that qualify.
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Re: BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby Sniper » Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:03 am

airmail wrote:This was posted in the GBB forum - it specifically lists the boys teams before region tournaments started. Personally, I think we should start moving in this direction or something similar. Perhaps some tweaks are necessary, but I think it's worthy of discussion.

woodchuck10 wrote:The seeding before state is flawed. Doesn’t take into account what you had to get there. We should seed the regions 1-8 before regions start. Take the top 4 QRF or another formula before regionals and seed or rank the Regions and bracket them that way.

Using the boys right now as an example:
Region 1 - 345.4
Region 2 - 387.4
Region 3 - 312.4
Region 4 - 354.7
Region 5 - 322.4
Region 6 - 361.6
Region 7 - 342
Region 8 - 334.4

#1 Region 2 champ vs #8 Region 3 champ
#4 Region 1 champ vs #5 Region 7 champ
#2 Region 6 champ vs #7 Region 5 champ
#3 Region 4 champ vs #6 Region 8 champ

Now on Thursday night you know who you play when you play after winning the region.
Use some kind of formula, QRF or the like. Stop expecting coaches to rank teams they haven’t seen all year. Rank the regions not the teams that qualify.


I do not like the idea of ranking teams based solely on how good their region is. You can have a very good team that dominates a weak region and deserves to be a higher seed. Plus what if upsets happen? In this scenario if Minot-2 (Our Redeemers) gets to state they would get the #2 seed as a 12 loss team. I think it is very clear that Bismarck (Shiloh) is more deserving of a higher seed than anyone who comes out of region 8 yet with this scenario the region 8 team would be higher because the others teams in region 5 are not that great, which Bismarck has no control over how good the other teams in their region are.
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Re: BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby sportsnut5 » Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:52 am

The problem with the current process, is without the eye test and seeing teams in person, it is almost impossible to seed teams that all have the same record. On the girl's thread, it went as far as stating there was collusion by the coaches. Which I can assure you there was none. Coaches use the computer formulas and such to assist, but even those are flawed in a sense as I do not believe that out of state opponents are factored into those formulas. I like the idea of seeding, but there will be flaws no matter the system used. The eye test is the greatest resource for coaches, but coaches will never see everyone from around the state in person. Go win 3 games and you are the state champion.
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Re: BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:14 am

sportsnut5 wrote:The problem with the current process, is without the eye test and seeing teams in person, it is almost impossible to seed teams that all have the same record. On the girl's thread, it went as far as stating there was collusion by the coaches. Which I can assure you there was none. Coaches use the computer formulas and such to assist, but even those are flawed in a sense as I do not believe that out of state opponents are factored into those formulas. I like the idea of seeding, but there will be flaws no matter the system used. The eye test is the greatest resource for coaches, but coaches will never see everyone from around the state in person. Go win 3 games and you are the state champion.


Might be better to have a committee seed the state tournaments...5-man committee that actually sees teams play from around the State
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Re: BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby defense1st » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:30 am

Run4Fun2009 wrote:
sportsnut5 wrote:The problem with the current process, is without the eye test and seeing teams in person, it is almost impossible to seed teams that all have the same record. On the girl's thread, it went as far as stating there was collusion by the coaches. Which I can assure you there was none. Coaches use the computer formulas and such to assist, but even those are flawed in a sense as I do not believe that out of state opponents are factored into those formulas. I like the idea of seeding, but there will be flaws no matter the system used. The eye test is the greatest resource for coaches, but coaches will never see everyone from around the state in person. Go win 3 games and you are the state champion.


Might be better to have a committee seed the state tournaments...5-man committee that actually sees teams play from around the State

I like this idea way better than coaches voting. It could be similar to the college football system now, just without them putting out their own polls. It still wouldn't be perfect, but it'd be an improvement.

Maybe retirement age people so they are more able to see as many teams as possible? Either that or each member is assigned to two regions. Or 8 members, one assigned to each region.

Moral of the story: there are a lot of ideas, and most of them feel better than the coaches voting.
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Re: BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:57 am

Don’t even have to get out...many teams stream games nowadays so that’s a perk into seeing teams play
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Re: BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby defense1st » Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:03 pm

Run4Fun2009 wrote:Don’t even have to get out...many teams stream games nowadays so that’s a perk into seeing teams play

Do most of those games get saved to be seen afterwards? I know some teams have either waited until after the season to make full games available, or have skipped it altogether to avoid giving their opponents the ability to scout them.
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Re: BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby classB4ever » Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:07 pm

defense1st wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:
sportsnut5 wrote:The problem with the current process, is without the eye test and seeing teams in person, it is almost impossible to seed teams that all have the same record. On the girl's thread, it went as far as stating there was collusion by the coaches. Which I can assure you there was none. Coaches use the computer formulas and such to assist, but even those are flawed in a sense as I do not believe that out of state opponents are factored into those formulas. I like the idea of seeding, but there will be flaws no matter the system used. The eye test is the greatest resource for coaches, but coaches will never see everyone from around the state in person. Go win 3 games and you are the state champion.


Might be better to have a committee seed the state tournaments...5-man committee that actually sees teams play from around the State

I like this idea way better than coaches voting. It could be similar to the college football system now, just without them putting out their own polls. It still wouldn't be perfect, but it'd be an improvement.

Maybe retirement age people so they are more able to see as many teams as possible? Either that or each member is assigned to two regions. Or 8 members, one assigned to each region.

Moral of the story: there are a lot of ideas, and most of them feel better than the coaches voting.


This is a good idea. Maybe have committee do it privately throughout season and release at end of year? Keep cumulative results throughout year to show there were no surprises when it is released.
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Re: BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:25 pm

defense1st wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:Don’t even have to get out...many teams stream games nowadays so that’s a perk into seeing teams play

Do most of those games get saved to be seen afterwards? I know some teams have either waited until after the season to make full games available, or have skipped it altogether to avoid giving their opponents the ability to scout them.


I bet if you asked for them for the purpose they are being used for they would allow it; I know all of R1 uses hudl so all their games get uploaded there. I personally like that system

Some schools use YouTube...some good games are done via NDportsChannel so that’s also nice...I probably have seen upwards to 150 games statewide this year (Boys & Girls).
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Re: BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby defense1st » Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:47 pm

Run4Fun2009 wrote:
defense1st wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:Don’t even have to get out...many teams stream games nowadays so that’s a perk into seeing teams play

Do most of those games get saved to be seen afterwards? I know some teams have either waited until after the season to make full games available, or have skipped it altogether to avoid giving their opponents the ability to scout them.


I bet if you asked for them for the purpose they are being used for they would allow it; I know all of R1 uses hudl so all their games get uploaded there. I personally like that system

Some schools use YouTube...some good games are done via NDportsChannel so that’s also nice...I probably have seen upwards to 150 games statewide this year (Boys & Girls).

So it's way more possible than I thought, we just need reliable people willing to do it and for the NDHSAA to buy in....easy right?

Run, care to volunteer? :lol:
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Re: BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby justplayalready » Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:11 pm

All joking aside...after seeing the field , I think Minot wins it & Minot vs Bismarck final is a real possibility depending on the seeding
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Re: BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:12 pm

After seeing 7 of the qualifiers...my predictions

1. Thompson
2. Shiloh Christian
3. Richland
4. New Rockford-Sheyenne
5. Bishop Ryan

Unseeded: Beulah - Maybe Beulah moves into #5, Bishop Ryan moves to #4 and NR-S is unseeded
Unseeded: Powers Lake
Unseeded: Region 3 Champ
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Re: BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby NodakQ2 » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:26 pm

I think we can speculate that Carrington/Ellendale and Powers Lake will not get a seed. I have seen 8 of 8 in the field play and my vote differs from how I think the vote will go. I think the seed vote will go:

1. Thompson
2. Richland
3. Shiloh
4. Ryan
5. Beulah

If I was voting, I’d put Beulah at 3. To me NR, Carrington/Ellendale and Powers Lake are a toss up head to head.
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Re: BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby heimer » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:43 pm

Well, if we follow the girls model to make sure there are no political problems:

Ryan won't get seeded.

Beulah vs Ryan
Shiloh vs Carrington/Ellendale
Thompson vs Mandaree
Richland vs NR-S
God is bigger than football.
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Re: BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby ninja_joe » Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:23 am

The field is very balanced for the most part. There will not be a right or wrong way to seed this with this field. Guessing it will go like this--

#1 Thompson (they will get the 1 seed--ranked #1) 23-1
#2 Richland 21-2 (ranked 3)
#3 Shiloh 21-3 (ranked 5)
#4 New Rockford-Sheyenne (ranked 9 but big win over 4 winds in region final)
#5 Minot Ryan (ranked 7 but lost to ok Our Redeemers team in districts. Beat them in regional final--4 or 5 seed for Ryan)

unseeded - Powers Lake (hottest team going into tourney with like 17 wins in a row) Capable of winning
Beulah - ranked 10 Capable of winning too
Region 3

Region 3 might be who everyone would want to draw. Nothing is guaranteed though. Everyone is good.

Coaches will simply follow the power poll when they vote. Pretty much was what happened with the girls.
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Re: BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:13 am

heimer wrote:Well, if we follow the girls model to make sure there are no political problems:

Ryan won't get seeded.

Beulah vs Ryan
Shiloh vs Carrington/Ellendale
Thompson vs Mandaree
Richland vs NR-S


Powers Lake won 74-72 in OT
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Re: BBB Seeding Thoughts

Postby packers21 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:29 am

heimer wrote:Well, if we follow the girls model to make sure there are no political problems:

Ryan won't get seeded.

Beulah vs Ryan
Shiloh vs Carrington/Ellendale
Thompson vs Mandaree
Richland vs NR-S


I just hope poor Thompson doesn't get the short end of the stick again.
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