hoophoophoop wrote:3 class system will ruin basketball, don't do it
hoophoophoop wrote:3 class system will ruin basketball, don't do it
classB4ever wrote:hoophoophoop wrote:3 class system will ruin basketball, don't do it
Please give examples of how it would "ruin basketball". Seems there are 45+ states with more than 2 classes that would prove you wrong. Granted, each state has a different mix of school enrollments. Irregardless, I don't think James Naismith is rolling in his grave due to 3+ class systems in other states.
scc wrote:Delaware has two divisions that play for one state title. Kentucky has one division.
scc wrote:Flip wrote:classB4ever wrote:hoophoophoop wrote:3 class system will ruin basketball, don't do it
Please give examples of how it would "ruin basketball". Seems there are 45+ states with more than 2 classes that would prove you wrong. Granted, each state has a different mix of school enrollments. Irregardless, I don't think James Naismith is rolling in his grave due to 3+ class systems in other states.
I think there are 49 states with 3+ classes for basketball.
Delaware has two divisions that play for one state title. Kentucky has one division.
B Historian wrote:When you look at the history of Class B basketball I think the "Golden Age" was from the 1973-74 season (first season of 8 team regionals and first state tournament in the Bismarck Civic Center) through the 1991-92 season (last season before the reduction to 16 districts).
If you look at what made that period great there are a few main factors:
1. The Civic Center was a great venue and held the majority of the tournaments. When the MSU Dome was added to the rotation later it too was a fine facility.
2. Oak Grove in 1986 was the only private school to make a state tournament appearance. It was literally teams from 8 small towns each season making it to state. By the mid to late 90's Minot Ryan and Dickinson Trinity were tournament regulars.
3. You had a villain for everyone to root against (Hillsboro and Ed Beyer) and ND's "Hoosiers" moment (Hillsboro-Epping).
4. Media coverage was outstanding considering the times. Go look at the Tribune or Forum archives and compare coverage from the 70's and 80's to today. TV coverage was also very good.
5. Although the media coverage was very good, it also was still limited enough to add some mystery to the regional and state tournaments. Many teams didn't really know where they stood going into regional tournaments because they hadn't played anyone outside of an hour radius all season. This made it fun. Nowadays teams not only criss-cross the state to play each other but there is also video of most teams available online.
6. There were school district consolidations during that time period, but not yet the rampant development of coops that we have seen the last 20 years. Each town and school seemed to have more of its own "identity." There are only a couple of coops I can think of during that period that people really questioned. One was when Lankin and Adams combined in 1983-84 (and subsequently made the state tournament). When the talent dried up a couple of years later that coop fell apart. People also made fun of Glenfield-Sutton-McHenry in the early 80's. I remember the talk at the state tournament being "every year they come back here they have added another town!"
Since the mid-90's Class B has evolved greatly with the private schools starting to dominate in certain regions and many more coops forming. What we now have four types of schools left in Class B basketball:
1. Private Schools
2. Traditionally large Class B Schools (Rugby, Grafton, Beulah, etc.)
3. Schools that benefit from proximity to bigger cities (Thompson, Kindred, HCV etc.)
4. Everyone Else
It's the "Everyone Else" category that would make up the third class. When you look at the schools in it, they obviously are fighting an uphill battle being smaller but they also "stuck" in the sense that most have already entered into coops to the furthest point logistically feasible. They would be fine competing with other like schools but have a difficult time competing with those in the first three groups. It seems the gap between the "Everyone Else" category and the others widens a little bit more each year.
I used to be against a third class but have changed my tune over the last year or so after looking at all the facts. Enrollment trends at many Class B schools are beginning to reverse themselves a bit after years of decline, but there is no going back to the golden age of Class B with 32 districts and more parity among schools than what exists today. A third class would give the 70 or so smallest schools a chance to compete on a more level playing field which would be beneficial for everyone.
hoophoophoop wrote:scc wrote:Flip wrote:classB4ever wrote:hoophoophoop wrote:3 class system will ruin basketball, don't do it
Please give examples of how it would "ruin basketball". Seems there are 45+ states with more than 2 classes that would prove you wrong. Granted, each state has a different mix of school enrollments. Irregardless, I don't think James Naismith is rolling in his grave due to 3+ class systems in other states.
I think there are 49 states with 3+ classes for basketball.
Delaware has two divisions that play for one state title. Kentucky has one division.
1. Travel, will have to travel farther to find games and region games.
2. No Cinderella teams anymore
3.Not every kid was meant to go to state, why not just have 8 classes then every one can go, being sarcastic.
4.It doesn't take much to put a good team together now a days, you have 3 really good players with some complementary players you can hang with the bigger schools, look at Milnor in 2013, they won state with two great players, now if they would have a 3 class system then that state title doesn't mean as much in my opinion. Take Richland this year, they will compete this year and next year to go to state, you have a 3 class system they probably cruise through that class with a couple state titles, and doesn't mean as much, Two years from now they don't probably win a game for a couple years. Just the way it
hoophoophoop wrote:1. Travel, will have to travel farther to find games and region games.
hoophoophoop wrote:2. No Cinderella teams anymore
hoophoophoop wrote:3.Not every kid was meant to go to state, why not just have 8 classes then every one can go, being sarcastic.
hoophoophoop wrote:
4.It doesn't take much to put a good team together now a days, you have 3 really good players with some complementary players you can hang with the bigger schools, look at Milnor in 2013, they won state with two great players, now if they would have a 3 class system then that state title doesn't mean as much in my opinion. Take Richland this year, they will compete this year and next year to go to state, you have a 3 class system they probably cruise through that class with a couple state titles, and doesn't mean as much, Two years from now they don't probably win a game for a couple years. Just the way it
hoophoophoop wrote:ALL TERRIBLE ARGUEMENTS,
hoophoophoop wrote:ALL TERRIBLE ARGUEMENTS,
It doesn't take much to put a good team together now a days...
classB4ever wrote:hoophoophoop wrote:1. Travel, will have to travel farther to find games and region games.
This is nonsense. There is absolutely no reason why scheduling would have to change. Irregardless, every school has no problem traveling now, for multiple tournaments, etc. during the season. Travel has always been a convenient excuse not to make changes.hoophoophoop wrote:2. No Cinderella teams anymore
What is a Cinderella team? There would still be small schools going against big schools in a 3 class system. Are we talking about Hillsboro vs. Epping? The one that happened 40 years ago? Another convenient excuse.hoophoophoop wrote:3.Not every kid was meant to go to state, why not just have 8 classes then every one can go, being sarcastic.
The old "everybody needs a ribbon excuse." Here's the deal, it isn't about getting to state. It's about participation and quality basketball. Competitive games. Bang for your buck. You want to talk about travel? Do you think it's a good investment for a school to have their student athletes traveling 90 miles to and from games knowing they will be beat by 40 points by halftime? Fans not going as they know they will be blown out as well?hoophoophoop wrote:
4.It doesn't take much to put a good team together now a days, you have 3 really good players with some complementary players you can hang with the bigger schools, look at Milnor in 2013, they won state with two great players, now if they would have a 3 class system then that state title doesn't mean as much in my opinion. Take Richland this year, they will compete this year and next year to go to state, you have a 3 class system they probably cruise through that class with a couple state titles, and doesn't mean as much, Two years from now they don't probably win a game for a couple years. Just the way it
If you think that making state is the only qualification for a successful year, we simply won't agree. However, I will add this, for every Milnor you bring up, I can name 15 teams that have been on the cusp of making it to state only to be knocked out in the region championship game by a "gatekeeper". Simply not deep enough over 3 nights. These small schools are usually the ones traveling the longest distances to the tourneys too. So throw in taking off school earlier, getting home later, depth off the bench, etc., and they can't overcome it.
Also, good luck finding "3 really good players with some complementary players." Good Lord, 50% of the teams are simply trying to get enough kids to go out so they can have a 5 on 5 scrimmage during practice. And doing that means bringing up 7th and 8th graders.
Flip wrote:hoophoophoop wrote:It doesn't take much to put a good team together now a days...
This is my favorite quote. Why doesn't everyone do this?
Sportsrube wrote:To me the biggest issue is competitive balance and that will not be solved by continuing to do things the way we do them now. Getting to State is not the major issue, having 50% or more of your games being decided by 20+ points is the issue.
woodchuck10 wrote:ClassB4ever, you used “irregardless” in two different posts. Please tell me you’re doing that ironically and not as a real word.
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