2018-19 BBB POLLS

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Re: 2018-19 BBB POLLS

Postby scc » Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:58 pm

Bison-Vikes #1 wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:QRF was last week (Thompson got two big wins...FWM got one) and doesn’t count out-of-state games
KMAV rankings and RPI also doesn’t count out-of-state games

These are a few variables that do not give a complete quantitative representation to the rankings.

But who really cares what your rank is now...it only matters what your rank is in mid-March!


Well, if people didn't care, I guess we wouldn't have polls. :D Honestly, just brought it up to get some discussion going on basketball. Miss hearing how things are stacking up across the state. This site has always been my go to for bb information in high school.

I think the discussion is good. Social media seems to take away from more of it happening here. The fact that so many teams in the top 10 have played or will play each other later in the season also makes it fun to follow.
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Re: 2018-19 BBB POLLS

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:40 pm

FOURTH POLL
Monday, December 31st

1. Thompson (13) 7-0 148
2. Four Winds-Minnewaukan (1) 5-0 129
3. Hillsboro-Central Valley (1) 5-0 126
4. Rugby 5-0 97
5. Richland 4-1 80
6. Cavalier 5-0 62
7. Kindred 4-1 38
8. Dickinson Trinity 5-2 35
9. Shiloh Christian 4-2 30
10. Bishop Ryan 4-2 28
Others Receiving Votes (RV): Edgeley-Kulm-Montpelier (4-0), New Rockford-Sheyenne (4-1), Mandaree (7-1), Beulah (4-3), Enderlin (5-1), Glen Ullin-Hebron (5-1).
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Re: 2018-19 BBB POLLS

Postby ndlionsfan » Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:51 pm

Surprised FWM didn't get more first place votes, but there's a lot of season left. Should be fun to watch Thompson/HCV play twice as well as FWM playing each of those teams. Have to give all three teams a lot of credit for putting together schedules against a lot of tough competition
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Re: 2018-19 BBB POLLS

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:07 pm

ndlionsfan wrote:Surprised FWM didn't get more first place votes, but there's a lot of season left. Should be fun to watch Thompson/HCV play twice as well as FWM playing each of those teams. Have to give all three teams a lot of credit for putting together schedules against a lot of tough competition


I think Thompson's wins over 2 ranked opponents trumped FWM's 1 win over a ranked opponent (same team - DT). Yes, Thompson vs. Hillsboro-CV on Friday, January 4th in Hillsboro will likely see our first major shakeup in the poll (for top teams)
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Re: 2018-19 BBB POLLS

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:45 pm

FIFTH POLL
Monday, January 7th

1. Thompson (18) 8-0 189
2. Four Winds-Minnewaukan (1) 8-0 172
3. Rugby 7-0 149
4. Hillsboro-Central Valley 5-1 130
5. Richland 5-1 100
6. Cavalier 7-0 99
7. Kindred 5-1 66
8. Shiloh Christian 6-2 52
9. Bishop Ryan 5-2 33
10. New Rockford-Sheyenne 4-1 27
Others Receiving Votes (RV): Dickinson Trinity (6-3), Mandaree (7-1), Edgeley-Kulm-Montpelier (6-1), Glen Ullin-Hebron (7-1), Beulah (4-3).
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Re: 2018-19 BBB POLLS

Postby BISONFAN18 » Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:37 pm

Run4Fun2009 wrote:FIFTH POLL
Monday, January 7th

1. Thompson (18) 8-0 189
2. Four Winds-Minnewaukan (1) 8-0 172
3. Rugby 7-0 149
4. Hillsboro-Central Valley 5-1 130
5. Richland 5-1 100
6. Cavalier 7-0 99
7. Kindred 5-1 66
8. Shiloh Christian 6-2 52
9. Bishop Ryan 5-2 33
10. New Rockford-Sheyenne 4-1 27
Others Receiving Votes (RV): Dickinson Trinity (6-3), Mandaree (7-1), Edgeley-Kulm-Montpelier (6-1), Glen Ullin-Hebron (7-1), Beulah (4-3).


https://classbbasketball.com/

I actually like this system better. The media polls should just go away. I know polls are meaningless but a system similar to this will be needed if 3 classes become a reality and seeding becomes more important.
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Re: 2018-19 BBB POLLS

Postby classB4ever » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:27 am

BISONFAN18 wrote:
https://classbbasketball.com/

I actually like this system better. The media polls should just go away. I know polls are meaningless but a system similar to this will be needed if 3 classes become a reality and seeding becomes more important.


Have followed that site for years. Great site for information. Only thing that drives me crazy (and has been that way all along) is they have to build something into their formula for head-head match ups. No way HC-V should be ranked ahead of Thompson when Thompson is undefeated AND beat them on their home court. SOS should not override a head-head loss.
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Re: 2018-19 BBB POLLS

Postby ndlionsfan » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:09 am

HCV and FWM flip flop in this week's poll?
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Re: 2018-19 BBB POLLS

Postby packers21 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:37 am

ndlionsfan wrote:HCV and FWM flip flop in this week's poll?


I think Rugby moves to 2 HCV 3 and 4 winds 4
It is a little harder to motivate kids I guess because they’ve been pampered so much. We’re in the trophy generation, give ‘em a trophy for 23rd place, make ‘em feel good. Make mom and dad feel good.” Tom Izzo, Michigan State Basketball
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Re: 2018-19 BBB POLLS

Postby ndlionsfan » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:51 am

packers21 wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:HCV and FWM flip flop in this week's poll?


I think Rugby moves to 2 HCV 3 and 4 winds 4


With HCV's wins over ranked opponents and their only loss to the #1 team I think they have to be #2. But who knows how the voters will place everyone.
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Re: 2018-19 BBB POLLS

Postby BISONFAN18 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:22 pm

packers21 wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:HCV and FWM flip flop in this week's poll?


I think Rugby moves to 2 HCV 3 and 4 winds 4


Rugby's record should not automatically move them up. There biggest win was against Dunseith. They barely won and Dunseith was like 5 of 40 from the three point line.
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Re: 2018-19 BBB POLLS

Postby packers21 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:44 pm

BISONFAN18 wrote:
packers21 wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:HCV and FWM flip flop in this week's poll?


I think Rugby moves to 2 HCV 3 and 4 winds 4


Rugby's record should not automatically move them up. There biggest win was against Dunseith. They barely won and Dunseith was like 5 of 40 from the three point line.


Obviously you haven’t looked at who they have played if that’s who you think their biggest win is against.
It is a little harder to motivate kids I guess because they’ve been pampered so much. We’re in the trophy generation, give ‘em a trophy for 23rd place, make ‘em feel good. Make mom and dad feel good.” Tom Izzo, Michigan State Basketball
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Re: 2018-19 BBB POLLS

Postby BISONFAN18 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:49 pm

packers21 wrote:
BISONFAN18 wrote:
packers21 wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:HCV and FWM flip flop in this week's poll?


I think Rugby moves to 2 HCV 3 and 4 winds 4


Rugby's record should not automatically move them up. There biggest win was against Dunseith. They barely won and Dunseith was like 5 of 40 from the three point line.


Obviously you haven’t looked at who they have played if that’s who you think their biggest win is against.
Proof that the current poll system is worthless.
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Re: 2018-19 BBB POLLS

Postby packers21 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:58 pm

BISONFAN18 wrote:
packers21 wrote:
BISONFAN18 wrote:
packers21 wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:HCV and FWM flip flop in this week's poll?


I think Rugby moves to 2 HCV 3 and 4 winds 4


Rugby's record should not automatically move them up. There biggest win was against Dunseith. They barely won and Dunseith was like 5 of 40 from the three point line.


Obviously you haven’t looked at who they have played if that’s who you think their biggest win is against.
Proof that the current poll system is worthless.


Bc you disagree with it?? Polls are doing exactly what they are here for - start conversation
It is a little harder to motivate kids I guess because they’ve been pampered so much. We’re in the trophy generation, give ‘em a trophy for 23rd place, make ‘em feel good. Make mom and dad feel good.” Tom Izzo, Michigan State Basketball
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Re: 2018-19 BBB POLLS

Postby classB4ever » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:00 pm

BISONFAN18 wrote:
packers21 wrote:
BISONFAN18 wrote:
packers21 wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:HCV and FWM flip flop in this week's poll?


I think Rugby moves to 2 HCV 3 and 4 winds 4


Rugby's record should not automatically move them up. There biggest win was against Dunseith. They barely won and Dunseith was like 5 of 40 from the three point line.


Obviously you haven’t looked at who they have played if that’s who you think their biggest win is against.
Proof that the current poll system is worthless.


With all due respect, I believe the current poll is more accurate than the RPI and Computer rankings which you referenced above. Bishop Ryan and H-CV are ranked ahead of Thompson on the referenced site and Thompson has beaten them both, one on neutral floor and the other on opponents home floor. Human polls generally are closer in the beginning of the year due to fact of knowing if players are missing, etc. Formulas don't take things like that into account. These formulas start getting close at end of year, but by that time everybody already knows best teams anyway. 2 cents.
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Re: 2018-19 BBB POLLS

Postby BISONFAN18 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:03 pm

packers21 wrote:
BISONFAN18 wrote:
packers21 wrote:
BISONFAN18 wrote:
packers21 wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:HCV and FWM flip flop in this week's poll?


I think Rugby moves to 2 HCV 3 and 4 winds 4


Rugby's record should not automatically move them up. There biggest win was against Dunseith. They barely won and Dunseith was like 5 of 40 from the three point line.


Obviously you haven’t looked at who they have played if that’s who you think their biggest win is against.
Proof that the current poll system is worthless.


Bc you disagree with it?? Polls are doing exactly what they are here for - start conversation
I seriously don't care what the polls say. I know that there is more to it than just wins and losses. I made my comment to actually strike up a conversation - something that does not happen much here anymore.
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Re: 2018-19 BBB POLLS

Postby BISONFAN18 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:06 pm

classB4ever wrote:
BISONFAN18 wrote:
packers21 wrote:
BISONFAN18 wrote:
packers21 wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:HCV and FWM flip flop in this week's poll?


I think Rugby moves to 2 HCV 3 and 4 winds 4


Rugby's record should not automatically move them up. There biggest win was against Dunseith. They barely won and Dunseith was like 5 of 40 from the three point line.


Obviously you haven’t looked at who they have played if that’s who you think their biggest win is against.
Proof that the current poll system is worthless.


With all due respect, I believe the current poll is more accurate than the RPI and Computer rankings which you referenced above. Bishop Ryan and H-CV are ranked ahead of Thompson on the referenced site and Thompson has beaten them both, one on neutral floor and the other on opponents home floor. Human polls generally are closer in the beginning of the year due to fact of knowing if players are missing, etc. Formulas don't take things like that into account. These formulas start getting close at end of year, but by that time everybody already knows best teams anyway. 2 cents.
How do you explain Cavalier being ranked and other teams who have had losses against top 5 teams not in the top 10?
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Re: 2018-19 BBB POLLS

Postby packers21 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:09 pm

BISONFAN18 wrote:
classB4ever wrote:
BISONFAN18 wrote:
packers21 wrote:
BISONFAN18 wrote:
packers21 wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:HCV and FWM flip flop in this week's poll?


I think Rugby moves to 2 HCV 3 and 4 winds 4


Rugby's record should not automatically move them up. There biggest win was against Dunseith. They barely won and Dunseith was like 5 of 40 from the three point line.


Obviously you haven’t looked at who they have played if that’s who you think their biggest win is against.
Proof that the current poll system is worthless.


With all due respect, I believe the current poll is more accurate than the RPI and Computer rankings which you referenced above. Bishop Ryan and H-CV are ranked ahead of Thompson on the referenced site and Thompson has beaten them both, one on neutral floor and the other on opponents home floor. Human polls generally are closer in the beginning of the year due to fact of knowing if players are missing, etc. Formulas don't take things like that into account. These formulas start getting close at end of year, but by that time everybody already knows best teams anyway. 2 cents.
How do you explain Cavalier being ranked and other teams who have had losses against top 5 teams not in the top 10?


Cavalier is a pretty salty, you must not know much about them. Since you singled out Cavalier and then failed to mention the other teams you feel are top 10 worthy its hard to discuss, who ? Region 7 teams?
It is a little harder to motivate kids I guess because they’ve been pampered so much. We’re in the trophy generation, give ‘em a trophy for 23rd place, make ‘em feel good. Make mom and dad feel good.” Tom Izzo, Michigan State Basketball
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Re: 2018-19 BBB POLLS

Postby BISONFAN18 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:12 pm

packers21 wrote:
BISONFAN18 wrote:
classB4ever wrote:
BISONFAN18 wrote:
packers21 wrote:
BISONFAN18 wrote:
packers21 wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:HCV and FWM flip flop in this week's poll?


I think Rugby moves to 2 HCV 3 and 4 winds 4


Rugby's record should not automatically move them up. There biggest win was against Dunseith. They barely won and Dunseith was like 5 of 40 from the three point line.


Obviously you haven’t looked at who they have played if that’s who you think their biggest win is against.
Proof that the current poll system is worthless.


With all due respect, I believe the current poll is more accurate than the RPI and Computer rankings which you referenced above. Bishop Ryan and H-CV are ranked ahead of Thompson on the referenced site and Thompson has beaten them both, one on neutral floor and the other on opponents home floor. Human polls generally are closer in the beginning of the year due to fact of knowing if players are missing, etc. Formulas don't take things like that into account. These formulas start getting close at end of year, but by that time everybody already knows best teams anyway. 2 cents.
How do you explain Cavalier being ranked and other teams who have had losses against top 5 teams not in the top 10?


Cavalier is a pretty salty, you must not know much about them. Since you singled out Cavalier and then failed to mention the other teams you feel are top 10 worthy its hard to discuss, who ? Region 7 teams?


I know they have played a weak schedule so far. There are two teams that I noticed who have 3 losses to the same top 10 teams. That would be Beulah and Dunseith.
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Re: 2018-19 BBB POLLS

Postby BISONFAN18 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:18 pm

The only reason I mentioned Cavalier is because they are so far down in the RPI and computer rankings. They your team?
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Re: 2018-19 BBB POLLS

Postby classB4ever » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:22 pm

BISONFAN18 wrote:How do you explain Cavalier being ranked and other teams who have had losses against top 5 teams not in the top 10?


Good question. I use 6 way multiplier: Wins (Home .75, Neutral 1, Away 1.25). Losses (Home 1.25, Neutral 1, Away .75). Also take into account winning percentage of team and opponent and point differential of game vs. team's average point differential. Gets complicated and not all bugs worked out of it yet, but getting close. In other words, having undefeated record should surely garnish you attention, but you have to have had wins against strong opponents as well.
Problem with using formulas in early part of season is there is no point of reference for strength of schedule. Who's to say what the strongest teams are in first 3 games of season to determine strength of schedule? You can't go by past year's success due to graduation. Therefore ranking SOS in first 3 weeks is completely up to author's own opinion.
So, Cavalier and Rugby are undefeated and played some quality opponents. Would still be hard for me to put them ahead of H-CV and FW-M due to point differential against some like opponents and each of them playing #1 team close.
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Re: 2018-19 BBB POLLS

Postby packers21 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:25 pm

BISONFAN18 wrote:The only reason I mentioned Cavalier is because they are so far down in the RPI and computer rankings. They your team?


Gotcha, they are team I follow and cheer for yes, but if they are crap I have no problem saying they are. They are team that can play with anyone this year and next. We find out a lot more about them Thursday.
It is a little harder to motivate kids I guess because they’ve been pampered so much. We’re in the trophy generation, give ‘em a trophy for 23rd place, make ‘em feel good. Make mom and dad feel good.” Tom Izzo, Michigan State Basketball
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Re: 2018-19 BBB POLLS

Postby BISONFAN18 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:26 pm

classB4ever wrote:
BISONFAN18 wrote:How do you explain Cavalier being ranked and other teams who have had losses against top 5 teams not in the top 10?


Good question. I use 6 way multiplier: Wins (Home .75, Neutral 1, Away 1.25). Losses (Home 1.25, Neutral 1, Away .75). Also take into account winning percentage of team and opponent and point differential of game vs. team's average point differential. Gets complicated and not all bugs worked out of it yet, but getting close. In other words, having undefeated record should surely garnish you attention, but you have to have had wins against strong opponents as well.
Problem with using formulas in early part of season is there is no point of reference for strength of schedule. Who's to say what the strongest teams are in first 3 games of season to determine strength of schedule? You can't go by past year's success due to graduation. Therefore ranking SOS in first 3 weeks is completely up to author's own opinion.
So, Cavalier and Rugby are undefeated and played some quality opponents. Would still be hard for me to put them ahead of H-CV and FW-M due to point differential against some like opponents and each of them playing #1 team close.


That is a pretty good explanation. Thanks and cudos for your love of the game.
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Re: 2018-19 BBB POLLS

Postby classB4ever » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:16 pm

BISONFAN18 wrote:
classB4ever wrote:
BISONFAN18 wrote:How do you explain Cavalier being ranked and other teams who have had losses against top 5 teams not in the top 10?


Good question. I use 6 way multiplier: Wins (Home .75, Neutral 1, Away 1.25). Losses (Home 1.25, Neutral 1, Away .75). Also take into account winning percentage of team and opponent and point differential of game vs. team's average point differential. Gets complicated and not all bugs worked out of it yet, but getting close. In other words, having undefeated record should surely garnish you attention, but you have to have had wins against strong opponents as well.
Problem with using formulas in early part of season is there is no point of reference for strength of schedule. Who's to say what the strongest teams are in first 3 games of season to determine strength of schedule? You can't go by past year's success due to graduation. Therefore ranking SOS in first 3 weeks is completely up to author's own opinion.
So, Cavalier and Rugby are undefeated and played some quality opponents. Would still be hard for me to put them ahead of H-CV and FW-M due to point differential against some like opponents and each of them playing #1 team close.


That is a pretty good explanation. Thanks and cudos for your love of the game.


Ha, thanks. Have enjoyed our discussions.

In the computer rankings and RPI that we are talking about, they had BR, DT and SC ranked very high in first week. So when they played one another, their RPI, CR and SOS got inflated because of their initial ranking. It is going to take a number of games for other teams to overcome that. Thompson, for instance is still ranked below them even though they have beaten a number of them head to head.

IMO, early in the season while everybody's record is still 0-0, the team that goes on the road and wins at opponent's home court by the largest point differential should automatically be ranked #1. That way there is no predetermining who are the strongest teams. It doesn't take long to see who best teams are. That's why SOS and RPI get inflated for some teams early on.

I guess that's why the pollsters are sometimes more accurate as they have ability to bring in human instincts in to "predicting" and formulas are only as good as author who wrote them. 2 cents.
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Re: 2018-19 BBB POLLS

Postby theman » Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:17 pm

This is just my two cents, but I believe the Class B Basketball.com website puts too much emphasis on strength of schedule. Every year there's team with 3, 4, or even 5 losses ahead of schools with 1 or maybe 2 losses because their SOS is better.

Here's an example: Oak Grove is ranked 28th with a record of 3-6. 4 spots behind them in 32nd place, Glen Ullin/Hebron, who is 9-2 and received votes in last week's poll. There are plenty of examples if you look outside of the top 20. I understand people don't really care as long as the system works for the top ten teams, but when you start digging into the data, there are teams like Hettinger-Scranton that are 0-11 but still ranked higher than two 3-win teams simply because of SOS.
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