The Myth Part 3

Class B Boys
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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby KCATOR » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:41 am

Sniper wrote:
Pit Bull wrote:
Sniper wrote:
District12guy wrote:For some privates it's simply not possible to move up a class. For example, I know for a fact that Bishop Ryan and Our Reedemers aren't big schools enrollment wise, and most of their players have been there for their entire high school careers, so "recruiting" isn't an issue. Plenty of small town schools have more students. Is it really fair to move these schools up a class simply because they are private schools? Or because they are located in Minot? I don't know anything about any of the other privates, all I'm saying is not all of them have an overwhelming advantage as many here seem to believe. In fact, in region 6 the most dominant teams for a few years have been teams like Rugby and Berthold.


I think the “recruiting” associated with private schools is mostly pointed at the amount of students Shiloh has had transfer in over the years, which is a lot and many of them just happen to be good athletes. Also the advantages most people refer to when talking about private schools is living in towns that offer many more opportunities to improve in athletics. You can’t tell me living somewhere that you have little league sports, acceleration programs available, a YMCA, summer camps does not help. And yes schools like Thompson have a similar advantage living near bigger cities that offer this but I would rather have them be the “bad guys” than the schools located within those cities.


Curious who the boys have recruited over the years? Ogbu was a rare exception. So other than him since I'm sure you think he was recruited, who else in their boys program? Just curious since you seem to think it's rampant.


To be clear I quoted someone else saying recruiting, I did not call it flat out recruiting but I could rattle off some names of athletes who transferred to Shiloh:

Donovan Lambert- Transferred to Shiloh in junior high. Played for new town as a freshman and sophomore. Transferred back to Shiloh as a junior. Rumored to have transferred back to New Town after basketball to graduate?
3 state appearances: 2 Shiloh, 1 New Town

Aaron Yellow Wolf
Transferred to Shiloh as a senior.

James Inman
Transferred to Shiloh from Century as a Sophomore.

Josh Wood
Transferred to Shiloh from Century as a Sophomore.

Chad Coulter
Transferred to Shiloh from Mandan. Not sure what year.

Ogbu
Transferred from Nigeria to Shiloh.

Matt Rask
Transferred to Shiloh as a Senior (maybe Junior)

Jace Ritzke
Transferred from Williston.


Very impressive list:

Jarvis BearsTail: Transfer 2005-2006

Also look at this year a coach went from one private school to the another private school after being released from the first school but note different religious affiliations at these two schools.

Or my favorite example brothers going to two different schools one a private school and one a class A school.
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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby classB4ever » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:47 am

Making it to the state tournament was what I use to consider the ultimate goal of every team. For me that has changed. BB used to be much more competitive from bottom to top. B basketball use to be a fast paced, high scoring affair. Somewhere along the line, that changed. And it's not like the NDHSAA is afraid to make changes. They incorporated the 3 point line. Shot clock came along. Block/Charge arc came along. There is 1 common denominator in all of this, more offense. Here's where the problem lies. Now, they have had to incorporate mercy rules. This is not a positive fix for a problem that is becoming more apparent as the years go by.

In today's bb, when a talented team comes along, usually the discrepancy in talent from the bottom to the top in their region is so large, that they only get to "hone their skills" for 1/2 to 2/3 of a game. And this is going on in what, half of their scheduled games? This is the balance that I like to discuss. The chance for the teams to have quality opponents night in and night out. There are always going to be blow outs, but man, it is getting a bit ridiculous.

I don't like reactive decisions. I like proactive decisions. My problem is that people have been force fed talking points so long (not broken, awards to everyone, pull up your panties and compete, etc.) that all they do is continue to parrot these things rather than look at the big picture. I am not saying that we need 3 classes. There has been some great discussion on another thread about some ideas that might make better basketball in ND. Maybe they won't. But having civil dialogue concerning some of the perceived problems shouldn't turn into mudslinging and belittling. Good common sense debates and ideas being discussed from people across the regions/state can be an eye opener for a lot of people. It is about the kids, and keeping participation levels up should be the number 1 goal to keep bb moving forward in our state. 2 cents.
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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby B-oldtimer » Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:41 pm

I can't agree more with your statement. I have gotten tired of rhetoric of people saying just struggle it up and quit complaining. I have tried to explain what's happening with facts and observations I have seen that's happening. I have kept commenting for the reason to make difference for kids here in North Dakota to make things better. Thank you again for clear and well explained opinion.
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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby spins » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:11 pm

I think what we will see is more "temporary" co-ops. You see it more in baseball or track where schools will co-op for maybe only a year or two when numbers are down.
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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby winner-within » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:42 pm

the one thing you never hear.....are student/players more deprived of playing a sport they love where there are 1,000 students in their School vs a School with 79 students?..............there are a pile of situations where 9 sophs and freshman from those Big A Schools could easily make up another competitive Class B Varsity team in the State .....

my point being, who is dealing with the most deprivation of the sport they love, the basketball player from Big Big (wait your turn....and many many don't even go out that would in a small school) or the small smalls? (where you start as an 8th grader but win 15 games in 5 years).....nobody is going to feel sorry for the student in the big big....saying they chose to live there (but did they) and everybody will feel sorry for the small small because they have no choice but to live there (or do they)..............

and yes, If the private can reach out and bring players in, then they have the best scenario going down.....

the only reason Basketball times have changed is because of what has changed in agriculture in our State along with Technology and it has all been driven by the generation who is complaining about how it is now!


you could balance it to 5 classes and never get to where everybody is over 500 for the season and the championship is won in overtime every year!
Last edited by winner-within on Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby BISONFAN18 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:09 pm

winner-within wrote:the one thing you never here.....are student/players more deprived of playing a sport they love where there are 1,000 students in their School vs a School with 79 students?..............there are a pile of situations where 9 sophs and freshman from those Big A Schools could easily make up another competitive Class B Varsity team in the State .....

my point being, who is dealing with the most deprivation of the sport they love, the basketball player from Big Big (wait your turn....and many many don't even go out that would in a small school) or the small smalls? (where you start as an 8th grader but win 15 games in 5 years).....nobody is going to feel sorry for the student in the big big....saying they chose to live there (but did they) and everybody will feel sorry for the small small because they have no choice but to live there (or do they)..............

and yes, If the private can reach out and bring players in, then they have the best scenario going down.....

the only reason Basketball times have changed is because of what has changed in agriculture in our State along with Technology and it has all been driven by the generation who is complaining about how it is now!


you could balance it to 5 classes and never get to where everybody is over 500 for the season and the championship is won in overtime every year!


So what you are saying is that the NDHSAA should have went to 3 classes when farms started dwindling in the 90s. I could not agree more.
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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby winner-within » Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:52 pm

BISONFAN18 wrote:
winner-within wrote:the one thing you never here.....are student/players more deprived of playing a sport they love where there are 1,000 students in their School vs a School with 79 students?..............there are a pile of situations where 9 sophs and freshman from those Big A Schools could easily make up another competitive Class B Varsity team in the State .....

my point being, who is dealing with the most deprivation of the sport they love, the basketball player from Big Big (wait your turn....and many many don't even go out that would in a small school) or the small smalls? (where you start as an 8th grader but win 15 games in 5 years).....nobody is going to feel sorry for the student in the big big....saying they chose to live there (but did they) and everybody will feel sorry for the small small because they have no choice but to live there (or do they)..............

and yes, If the private can reach out and bring players in, then they have the best scenario going down.....

the only reason Basketball times have changed is because of what has changed in agriculture in our State along with Technology and it has all been driven by the generation who is complaining about how it is now!


you could balance it to 5 classes and never get to where everybody is over 500 for the season and the championship is won in overtime every year!


So what you are saying is that the NDHSAA should have went to 3 classes when farms started dwindling in the 90s. I could not agree more.


wasn't saying that and we are 20 years later, so obviously time wasn't of an essence.....actually, I would say in the 80's ....when not so thought out co-ops were gearing up and becoming a band-aid is when the NDHSAA should have nipped that in the bud and said, Nope! you wanna play together? then consolidate!!
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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby B Historian » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:12 pm

classB4ever wrote:Making it to the state tournament was what I use to consider the ultimate goal of every team. For me that has changed. BB used to be much more competitive from bottom to top. B basketball use to be a fast paced, high scoring affair. Somewhere along the line, that changed. And it's not like the NDHSAA is afraid to make changes. They incorporated the 3 point line. Shot clock came along. Block/Charge arc came along. There is 1 common denominator in all of this, more offense. Here's where the problem lies. Now, they have had to incorporate mercy rules. This is not a positive fix for a problem that is becoming more apparent as the years go by.

In today's bb, when a talented team comes along, usually the discrepancy in talent from the bottom to the top in their region is so large, that they only get to "hone their skills" for 1/2 to 2/3 of a game. And this is going on in what, half of their scheduled games? This is the balance that I like to discuss. The chance for the teams to have quality opponents night in and night out. There are always going to be blow outs, but man, it is getting a bit ridiculous.

I don't like reactive decisions. I like proactive decisions. My problem is that people have been force fed talking points so long (not broken, awards to everyone, pull up your panties and compete, etc.) that all they do is continue to parrot these things rather than look at the big picture. I am not saying that we need 3 classes. There has been some great discussion on another thread about some ideas that might make better basketball in ND. Maybe they won't. But having civil dialogue concerning some of the perceived problems shouldn't turn into mudslinging and belittling. Good common sense debates and ideas being discussed from people across the regions/state can be an eye opener for a lot of people. It is about the kids, and keeping participation levels up should be the number 1 goal to keep bb moving forward in our state. 2 cents.


Over the last three years, there has been an average of 115.3 points scored in each Class B region tournament game. Over the last three seasons prior to the shot clock, there was an average of 111.3 points scored in each region tournament game.

In regional play scoring is up 4 points per game with the shot clock. But amazingly, scoring is actually down in the state tournament. The six state tournaments prior to the shot clock averaged 115.2 points per game. The six state tournament since average 113.9 points per game.

Of course regional and state tournament games feature the best Class B teams. I would be interested to see entire seasons worth of scoring data to look for trends but that would be a huge undertaking.

My point here (and I acknowledge possibly opening a big can of worms) is that the shot clock has not been good for Class B basketball. I believe it further marginalizes the weaker teams by forcing them to take shots they are not comfortable with. I don't think 4 points per game is worth it when it leads to choppy, rushed offenses. Shot clocks work at the higher levels when all players are fairly skilled but that isn't the reality of Class B basketball.

That said, this year there were 19 regional tournament games decided by 15 or more points. Last year there were 23 such games. In 1998 there were 24 and in 1988 there were 20. It doesn't appear that there are more blowouts at the regional level than there used to be.

I do agree however that there are more regular season games that are problematic. I feel the shot clock has turned the 65-35 game into the 75-25 game.
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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby classB4ever » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:28 pm

B Historian wrote:
I do agree however that there are more regular season games that are problematic. I feel the shot clock has turned the 65-35 game into the 75-25 game.


Great info and yes, was referring to regular season play.
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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby B Historian » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:29 pm

winner-within wrote:the one thing you never hear.....are student/players more deprived of playing a sport they love where there are 1,000 students in their School vs a School with 79 students?..............there are a pile of situations where 9 sophs and freshman from those Big A Schools could easily make up another competitive Class B Varsity team in the State .....

my point being, who is dealing with the most deprivation of the sport they love, the basketball player from Big Big (wait your turn....and many many don't even go out that would in a small school) or the small smalls? (where you start as an 8th grader but win 15 games in 5 years).....nobody is going to feel sorry for the student in the big big....saying they chose to live there (but did they) and everybody will feel sorry for the small small because they have no choice but to live there (or do they)..............


This is a great point. A good friend of mine was a standout Class B player. He had three boys and all have recently graduated from a 2500 student high school in a major metro area. The oldest was a three sport star in HS that is currently playing D-I baseball. The big school experience was great for him because he got to play at a very high level against the best of the best.

However, the experience for the next two boys was miserable because they weren't exceptional athletes. Both were cut off HS teams because there isn't a need for a 6'2" PF in suburban HS basketball. Both of these kids would have been good players at a Class B school in ND but didn't even get a chance to play in HS. This happens to many kids all over the country, including some at the bigger schools in ND.

I guess this is why I don't have a lot of sympathy for the kid whose smaller school got beat by big bad Dickinson Trinity in the regional his senior year. At least he got to play the game.
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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby Flip » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:35 pm

B Historian wrote:I do agree however that there are more regular season games that are problematic. I feel the shot clock has turned the 65-35 game into the 75-25 game.

I've never agreed with this belief. Teams that are losing by 30-50 points aren't good enough to pass it around for 35+ seconds looking for a good shot. Every pass you make, every second you hold the ball, the chances of a turnover increase.
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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby lennylive » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:36 pm

How about this... eliminate the shot clock....Currently, only eight states in the country have implemented the use of shot clocks into its high school basketball games. Those states are California, Maryland, Massachusetts, New York, Rhode Island, Washington, North Dakota and South Dakota....
.Eliminate the 3 point shot.... we will see basketball back to the real basics...instead of this NBA ..Rush offense ...
I would love to see teams get back to playing DEFENSE ..like the teams of the Eddie Beyer days..

Public or Private ...big or small.... a Good team is only as Good as its Coach and if the students/athletes like that coach.... and how well the AD relates to the students and gets the parents and their children involved...Yes..Big schools have an advantage...but there are alot of BIGGER schools who do not accel in any sport...or just 1....
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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby OldSchoolBaller » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:48 pm

The shot clock is there for 1 reason and 1 reason only, and that is to make it easier for the better team to win. I believe it was implemented a year or 2 after Shiloh played stall ball against TLMM (maybe it was just TLM at the time) to get to state. As a fan of basketball the last thing that I want to see when I go to a game is stall ball, and the shot clock does not allow this to happen.
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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby B Historian » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:52 pm

BISONFAN18 wrote:
winner-within wrote:the one thing you never here.....are student/players more deprived of playing a sport they love where there are 1,000 students in their School vs a School with 79 students?..............there are a pile of situations where 9 sophs and freshman from those Big A Schools could easily make up another competitive Class B Varsity team in the State .....

my point being, who is dealing with the most deprivation of the sport they love, the basketball player from Big Big (wait your turn....and many many don't even go out that would in a small school) or the small smalls? (where you start as an 8th grader but win 15 games in 5 years).....nobody is going to feel sorry for the student in the big big....saying they chose to live there (but did they) and everybody will feel sorry for the small small because they have no choice but to live there (or do they)..............

and yes, If the private can reach out and bring players in, then they have the best scenario going down.....

the only reason Basketball times have changed is because of what has changed in agriculture in our State along with Technology and it has all been driven by the generation who is complaining about how it is now!


you could balance it to 5 classes and never get to where everybody is over 500 for the season and the championship is won in overtime every year!


So what you are saying is that the NDHSAA should have went to 3 classes when farms started dwindling in the 90s. I could not agree more.


This is right on the money. If you look at enrollment histories, many Class B schools peaked between 1995-99. The NDHSAA should have looked into three classes at that point and gotten out in front of the issue before everyone entered into a coop.

Now it has gotten to the point where we have unnecessary coops like Four Winds- Minnewaukan and HCV. There is no need for Hillsboro or Four Winds to coop with anyone but doing so gives them the necessary numbers to dominate.

I am not totally against a 3-class system, but would like to see it done for the right reasons. The complaints about the private schools are lame. Basically every school in the SW corner of the state has cooped or consolidated over the past 20 years and they still can't beat Trinity because frankly no one outside of Beulah has a real solid basketball program. A town the size of Hazen has made one state appearance in the entire history of the school? That is just lame.

I brought this up before in another post but I will say it again: going to three classes creates a travel hardship for those in the middle class. Concerns about this were a factor in the discussion not moving forward 10-11 years ago when it came up. Dividing the middle class theoretically into four regions would necessitate some 250-300 mile round trips for regular season games. Yes, the middle and lower classes could still play games against each other but I'm guessing they would be more limited than you might think.
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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby Flip » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:57 pm

Hillsboro didn't need a co-op, but I think it's fair to say CV would struggle to get numbers without one.
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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby heimer » Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:05 pm

Is this thing still happening.

Sorry, didn't know it would become one of the more talked about threads the week of the B.

Here are some facts: People will always defend a system that is broken more strongly than one that works. Kids are losing opportunities to the two-class disaster, and there are bigger problems than Bisonguy and a few other supers in their 60s want to admit.

So, let me explain my posting about co-ops, oil, formers, and such. I thought you'd get it, but you obviously need some help in Mayville, Grafton, Shiloh, and Beulah.

1. Wyndmere-Lidgerwood: With three classes, they'd be separate. Kids losing opportunities to play, compete, and even go out due the disadvantages of the co-op.

2. HCV: See 1.

3. Carrington: Former North Star school, if I'm not mistaken, that has now become the big boy on the block in a small school region. They will be in the region semis pretty much every year, while L-L-M (should be two teams), Medina-P-B (should be two teams) and E-K-M (should be two teams) all co-op to survive.

4. St. John: The one darling of this tournament

5. Shiloh: Private, Bismarck, sure.

6. Minot Ryan: See 5

7. Beulah: How many years ago were they A? They are the only reason Trinity isn't in the tournament, and not much of an upgrade while county schools come together to try to survive.

8. Stanley: Anyone who denies the idea that the influx of oil money affected athletics there is a moron. New schools and facilities all over the place. But, out of eight regions, this is the one I may be reading wrong.

I'll say it again, it's not just about the seasons that continue. Its also about the seasons that ended. The regional finals:

Oak Grove, HCV, Grafton, Carrington, Shiloh, Minot Ryan, Rugby, Trinity, Beulah, that's nine of 16 teams.

I've had a handful of ADs tell me during tournaments they believe athletics is about competing and providing opportunities for kids. There are two problems here, and they are not all at the B level.

The B level is co-oping to survive beatdowns because no lower class is available. If Medina and Pingree and Buchanan have to combine to compete with Carrington, that's failure. If Wyndmere and Lidgerwood have to co-op to compete with Central Cass, that's failure.

At the same time, Red River and Davies and Bismarck and Minot (my God, Minot) fielding one team from student bodies of 1200, 1300, 1600, and 2000 is ridiculous. We open basketball to 15 kids out of 2000? That's opportunity?

Screw this crap. Move the big Bs, the privates, the small As, and make every school with, what, 750 kids ore more? (just a thought) field a top team that is tryout based, and then one team for every 500 kids they have in school that is draft-based. Put all of those teams in the middle division, and see how much money you'll make. By my count, you'd have a robust division about about, what, I lost count at 35, probably 50 teams, maybe? Organize it however the heck you want, two divisions, small and large, four each to state, I don't care. I guarantee you'll open up a world of participation to kids not playing, that don't go out because making a team is hopeless, and allow small schools to stay on their own another 25 years before they have to co-op again.

This. Would. Work.
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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby sportsfan111 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:18 pm

heimer wrote:Is this thing still happening.

Sorry, didn't know it would become one of the more talked about threads the week of the B.

Here are some facts: People will always defend a system that is broken more strongly than one that works. Kids are losing opportunities to the two-class disaster, and there are bigger problems than Bisonguy and a few other supers in their 60s want to admit.

So, let me explain my posting about co-ops, oil, formers, and such. I thought you'd get it, but you obviously need some help in Mayville, Grafton, Shiloh, and Beulah.

1. Wyndmere-Lidgerwood: With three classes, they'd be separate. Kids losing opportunities to play, compete, and even go out due the disadvantages of the co-op.

2. HCV: See 1.

3. Carrington: Former North Star school, if I'm not mistaken, that has now become the big boy on the block in a small school region. They will be in the region semis pretty much every year, while L-L-M (should be two teams), Medina-P-B (should be two teams) and E-K-M (should be two teams) all co-op to survive.

4. St. John: The one darling of this tournament

5. Shiloh: Private, Bismarck, sure.

6. Minot Ryan: See 5

7. Beulah: How many years ago were they A? They are the only reason Trinity isn't in the tournament, and not much of an upgrade while county schools come together to try to survive.

8. Stanley: Anyone who denies the idea that the influx of oil money affected athletics there is a moron. New schools and facilities all over the place. But, out of eight regions, this is the one I may be reading wrong.

I'll say it again, it's not just about the seasons that continue. Its also about the seasons that ended. The regional finals:

Oak Grove, HCV, Grafton, Carrington, Shiloh, Minot Ryan, Rugby, Trinity, Beulah, that's nine of 16 teams.

I've had a handful of ADs tell me during tournaments they believe athletics is about competing and providing opportunities for kids. There are two problems here, and they are not all at the B level.

The B level is co-oping to survive beatdowns because no lower class is available. If Medina and Pingree and Buchanan have to combine to compete with Carrington, that's failure. If Wyndmere and Lidgerwood have to co-op to compete with Central Cass, that's failure.

At the same time, Red River and Davies and Bismarck and Minot (my God, Minot) fielding one team from student bodies of 1200, 1300, 1600, and 2000 is ridiculous. We open basketball to 15 kids out of 2000? That's opportunity?

Screw this crap. Move the big Bs, the privates, the small As, and make every school with, what, 750 kids ore more? (just a thought) field a top team that is tryout based, and then one team for every 500 kids they have in school that is draft-based. Put all of those teams in the middle division, and see how much money you'll make. By my count, you'd have a robust division about about, what, I lost count at 35, probably 50 teams, maybe? Organize it however the heck you want, two divisions, small and large, four each to state, I don't care. I guarantee you'll open up a world of participation to kids not playing, that don't go out because making a team is hopeless, and allow small schools to stay on their own another 25 years before they have to co-op again.

This. Would. Work.


This will not hold true for Carrington on the boys side in the next few years. The number of students involved in basketball significantly decreases after next year. After Seth Nelson graduates, they will struggle to get out of district 5 for a while. Carrington's boys just reached their first regional semifinal last season for the first time in a while. Definitely has not been complete dominance. On the girl's side, that is a different story. Numbers aren't what they used to be but there is still talent. I think that's more of a testament to Andy Braaten and the program he has built rather than we have so many more kids to chose from.
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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby winner-within » Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:26 pm

Flip wrote:Hillsboro didn't need a co-op, but I think it's fair to say CV would struggle to get numbers without one.


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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby winner-within » Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:28 pm

sportsfan111 wrote:
heimer wrote:Is this thing still happening.

Sorry, didn't know it would become one of the more talked about threads the week of the B.

Here are some facts: People will always defend a system that is broken more strongly than one that works. Kids are losing opportunities to the two-class disaster, and there are bigger problems than Bisonguy and a few other supers in their 60s want to admit.

So, let me explain my posting about co-ops, oil, formers, and such. I thought you'd get it, but you obviously need some help in Mayville, Grafton, Shiloh, and Beulah.

1. Wyndmere-Lidgerwood: With three classes, they'd be separate. Kids losing opportunities to play, compete, and even go out due the disadvantages of the co-op.

2. HCV: See 1.

3. Carrington: Former North Star school, if I'm not mistaken, that has now become the big boy on the block in a small school region. They will be in the region semis pretty much every year, while L-L-M (should be two teams), Medina-P-B (should be two teams) and E-K-M (should be two teams) all co-op to survive.

4. St. John: The one darling of this tournament

5. Shiloh: Private, Bismarck, sure.

6. Minot Ryan: See 5

7. Beulah: How many years ago were they A? They are the only reason Trinity isn't in the tournament, and not much of an upgrade while county schools come together to try to survive.

8. Stanley: Anyone who denies the idea that the influx of oil money affected athletics there is a moron. New schools and facilities all over the place. But, out of eight regions, this is the one I may be reading wrong.

I'll say it again, it's not just about the seasons that continue. Its also about the seasons that ended. The regional finals:

Oak Grove, HCV, Grafton, Carrington, Shiloh, Minot Ryan, Rugby, Trinity, Beulah, that's nine of 16 teams.

I've had a handful of ADs tell me during tournaments they believe athletics is about competing and providing opportunities for kids. There are two problems here, and they are not all at the B level.

The B level is co-oping to survive beatdowns because no lower class is available. If Medina and Pingree and Buchanan have to combine to compete with Carrington, that's failure. If Wyndmere and Lidgerwood have to co-op to compete with Central Cass, that's failure.

At the same time, Red River and Davies and Bismarck and Minot (my God, Minot) fielding one team from student bodies of 1200, 1300, 1600, and 2000 is ridiculous. We open basketball to 15 kids out of 2000? That's opportunity?

Screw this crap. Move the big Bs, the privates, the small As, and make every school with, what, 750 kids ore more? (just a thought) field a top team that is tryout based, and then one team for every 500 kids they have in school that is draft-based. Put all of those teams in the middle division, and see how much money you'll make. By my count, you'd have a robust division about about, what, I lost count at 35, probably 50 teams, maybe? Organize it however the heck you want, two divisions, small and large, four each to state, I don't care. I guarantee you'll open up a world of participation to kids not playing, that don't go out because making a team is hopeless, and allow small schools to stay on their own another 25 years before they have to co-op again.

This. Would. Work.


This will not hold true for Carrington on the boys side in the next few years. The number of students involved in basketball significantly decreases after next year. After Seth Nelson graduates, they will struggle to get out of district 5 for a while. Carrington's boys just reached their first regional semifinal last season for the first time in a while. Definitely has not been complete dominance. On the girl's side, that is a different story. Numbers aren't what they used to be but there is still talent. I think that's more of a testament to Andy Braaten and the program he has built rather than we have so many more kids to chose from.



and it won't be long where Hankinson is going to have to hook up with who W-L ?? 13 seniors on the football team..
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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby Flip » Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:39 pm

winner-within wrote:11 man football, yes
Basketball, no

First year of the co-op CV had 7 girls out for basketball IIRC.
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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby lennylive » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:20 pm

OldSchoolBaller wrote:The shot clock is there for 1 reason and 1 reason only, and that is to make it easier for the better team to win. I believe it was implemented a year or 2 after Shiloh played stall ball against TLMM (maybe it was just TLM at the time) to get to state. As a fan of basketball the last thing that I want to see when I go to a game is stall ball, and the shot clock does not allow this to happen.


A good defense wont allow stall ball... and the better shooting team will win no matter if there is a 3 point shot or not... so your point is?.... all that a shot clock does is make for a higher scoring game...period...I myself would rather watch a great defense and a great offense go at it.....rather than a Saturday morning race horse show... with a lot of ohs and ahs for someone canning 3 pointers behind the arc. To me a well run offense that can score inside, drive the lane, work of screens is more entertainment than an offense throwing up the 3 all night, and a defense that can stop that is even more impressive.
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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby B Historian » Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:59 pm

Flip wrote:Hillsboro didn't need a co-op, but I think it's fair to say CV would struggle to get numbers without one.


Agree that CV probably needed the co-op but my point was that Hillsboro did not. I think Hillsboro was tired of not making it to state and entering into the co-op made them one of the big schools again. Having a few Henningsgards in the pipeline made it an easy decision.
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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:11 pm

B Historian wrote:
Flip wrote:Hillsboro didn't need a co-op, but I think it's fair to say CV would struggle to get numbers without one.


Agree that CV probably needed the co-op but my point was that Hillsboro did not. I think Hillsboro was tired of not making it to state and entering into the co-op made them one of the big schools again. Having a few Henningsgards in the pipeline made it an easy decision.


CV tried to coop with Thompson first, I believe.
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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby B Historian » Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:12 pm

SD has had a 3-class system for over 30 years and yet they have several co-ops, most of them in the smallest class:

http://www.sdhsaa.com/Athletics/ClassificationInformation/Cooperatives.aspx

I think a 3-class system in ND would probably stem the tide of further co-ops but I don't think more than a handful of current ones would dissolve if there were three classes.

After doing a little analysis, there is one interesting fact about ND Class B schools: Over the next several years, the public Class B schools will actually be gaining enrollment overall. Right now there are about 2500 seniors at such schools across the state while there are about 3200 in kindergarten. It will be interesting to see how this effects basketball going forward.
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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby B Historian » Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:18 pm

Run4Fun2009 wrote:
B Historian wrote:
Flip wrote:Hillsboro didn't need a co-op, but I think it's fair to say CV would struggle to get numbers without one.


Agree that CV probably needed the co-op but my point was that Hillsboro did not. I think Hillsboro was tired of not making it to state and entering into the co-op made them one of the big schools again. Having a few Henningsgards in the pipeline made it an easy decision.


CV tried to coop with Thompson first, I believe.


Yes, if my memory serves me right that is correct. It's a good thing for those CV kids that it didn't happen. Even with all that talent Thompson would have found a way to mess it up like they always seem to do.
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