State Tournament officiating

Class B Girls
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State Tournament officiating

Postby heimer » Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:18 pm

How did everyone think the officiating was at state B girls?

I didn't see a game. I ask because I got a pretty reliable tip that one of the officials was down south snow-birding December, January, and part of February. He still got a state tournament assignment.

I personally think there is an extreme amount of nepotism and favoritism in state officiating selection.
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Re: State Tournament officiating

Postby Bisonguy06 » Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:27 pm

Seems like this system is about like the media picking class B all state. A bunch of people casting votes despite never seeing 80% of the people on the list in action. A flawed system, but an impossible task to get 'right.'

And refs don't even have stats or won-loss records to enter into the discussion.

Right now you've lobbed a slow pitch softball right down the heart of the plate, looking for people to take their swing at refs and at the system.

Go ahead, you be the first to swing.

If you think there's a better way to choose officials, let's hear it.
Last edited by Bisonguy06 on Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: State Tournament officiating

Postby Flip » Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:39 pm

heimer wrote:How did everyone think the officiating was at state B girls?

Poor. Let physical play go too far.

I didn't see a game. I ask because I got a pretty reliable tip that one of the officials was down south snow-birding December, January, and part of February. He still got a state tournament assignment.

Got a name?

Bisonguy06 wrote:Seems like this system is about like the media picking all state. A bunch of people casting votes despite never seeing 80% of the people on the list in action.

If you think there's a better way to choose officials, let's hear it.

Does the system in place matter if the person tallying the votes just picks the officials they like? I think that's what he is insinuating.
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Re: State Tournament officiating

Postby Bisonguy06 » Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:51 pm

I think he means there's a "good ol' boy's network" favored by those who vote, regardless of performance (or extended absence, see above). I don't think he'd allege manipulation of the actual tallied votes. But Heimer can speak for himself.
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Re: State Tournament officiating

Postby ndlionsfan » Tue Mar 07, 2017 10:08 am

I actually like the physical play and that they let it go for the most part. Thought they called it too tight in the championship and the teams couldn't get a good flow going.
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Re: State Tournament officiating

Postby The Schwab » Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:03 am

The system we have in place is a flawed one, but I think it could be fixed. If I'm not mistaken how officials are picked goes Class A boys, A Girls, B Boys, B Girls (the middle two could be flip flopped) I know they let you ref more than one regional (this year was the first I think). The fact of the matter is we have a shortage of officials due to a few factors:
1: Who wants to be harassed by one side or the other on nearly every single call/no call?
2: If you officiate with the combined basketball season (IMO the single worst decision to ever happen to ND basketball, but that's a whole different topic) you ref 5 nights a week, 6 if you ref city league.
3: For years the "good ol' boys club" didn't let young officials get an opportunity to ref post season tournaments so they quit reffing

To explain the physical play (I didn't watch much of the state girls because we don't get our ABC station out of ND): Refs are burned out, by this time in the season they have probably reffed 150+ games so they start letting things go (now this should never happen in a tournament, but I guarantee it happens in regular season games). We could fix our reffing and coaching shortage by simply moving the girls season back to the fall, but I know that will never happen
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Re: State Tournament officiating

Postby Flip » Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:29 am

150+ games, that would be a game a day for 5 months.
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Re: State Tournament officiating

Postby moverandshaker » Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:32 am

It was probably the worst state championship officiating I've ever seen. The whole tournament was out of control, but the championship game was terrible. The taller ref with glasses was probably the worst official I've ever watched. Calls when there was nothing at all and let the holding in the paint happen all tournament. I would be curious to have them sit down and watch the game after the fact and explain the absolute bull that they called throughout the tourney. I have a lot of respect for those that officiate, but if your going to be biased and call the game for your favorite then you should step out of the position.
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Re: State Tournament officiating

Postby Sportsrube » Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:40 am

moverandshaker wrote:It was probably the worst state championship officiating I've ever seen. The whole tournament was out of control, but the championship game was terrible. The taller ref with glasses was probably the worst official I've ever watched. Calls when there was nothing at all and let the holding in the paint happen all tournament. I would be curious to have them sit down and watch the game after the fact and explain the absolute bull that they called throughout the tourney. I have a lot of respect for those that officiate, but if your going to be biased and call the game for your favorite then you should step out of the position.


Sounds like a North Star fan. They are always looking for more officials, take the test and put on the shirt and whistle.
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Re: State Tournament officiating

Postby Flip » Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:49 am

I watched 10 games at state and thought the championship was the best called game of the tournament. The foul on the 3 point shot seemed pretty bad and really hurt NS too.
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Re: State Tournament officiating

Postby The Schwab » Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:53 am

Flip wrote:150+ games, that would be a game a day for 5 months.


We have all of our officials do both JV and Varsity games, 2 games a night, 5 nights a week is 10 games a week, 15 weeks of basketball season, 13 of which they're working 5 nights a week, 13x10 is 130. Some teams have officials for all three games a night (ABC) lets add 8 for those scenarios, 138. We had 2 double headers this year where the same refs reffed all 4 games (boys and girls), lets add 2 for that 140. Officials who ref in the state tournament reffed 4 games in the regional and 3 games at state, 147. Postseason officials are almost always required to work a team-day camp add 3 games there, 150. Officials in our area officiate city league as well 2 games every Wednesday for 10 weeks, 170.
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Re: State Tournament officiating

Postby moverandshaker » Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:39 pm

Sportsrube wrote:
moverandshaker wrote:It was probably the worst state championship officiating I've ever seen. The whole tournament was out of control, but the championship game was terrible. The taller ref with glasses was probably the worst official I've ever watched. Calls when there was nothing at all and let the holding in the paint happen all tournament. I would be curious to have them sit down and watch the game after the fact and explain the absolute bull that they called throughout the tourney. I have a lot of respect for those that officiate, but if your going to be biased and call the game for your favorite then you should step out of the position.


Sounds like a North Star fan. They are always looking for more officials, take the test and put on the shirt and whistle.


That is an amazing comeback, if I had your knowledge I would ace the test. Is it possible the truth hurts? As stated, I have a lot of respect for officials and what they do. They do take a lot of heat from the crowd day in and day out and for that my hat goes off to them. I just call a spade a spade, my bad.
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Re: State Tournament officiating

Postby my_$0.02 » Tue Mar 07, 2017 1:47 pm

Is face gurarding legal in basketball. I saw a player with both hands in the face of that kvilvang player from northstar. The defender literally had both hands in the face. I have never seen that before. Just curious.
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Re: State Tournament officiating

Postby The Schwab » Tue Mar 07, 2017 1:54 pm

placing the hands over the eyes of the player to stop their view of the game should be a technical.
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Re: State Tournament officiating

Postby Flip » Tue Mar 07, 2017 2:25 pm

my_$0.02 wrote:Is face gurarding legal in basketball. I saw a player with both hands in the face of that kvilvang player from northstar. The defender literally had both hands in the face. I have never seen that before. Just curious.

post a screenshot.
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Re: State Tournament officiating

Postby heimer » Tue Mar 07, 2017 2:30 pm

Bisonguy06 wrote:Seems like this system is about like the media picking class B all state. A bunch of people casting votes despite never seeing 80% of the people on the list in action. A flawed system, but an impossible task to get 'right.'

And refs don't even have stats or won-loss records to enter into the discussion.

Right now you've lobbed a slow pitch softball right down the heart of the plate, looking for people to take their swing at refs and at the system.

Go ahead, you be the first to swing.


As I said, the only game I saw was the title game, and that through TV. I have no input on what the officiating was like. I was surprised to hear that one of the officials at the tournament kept an assignment after snow-birding for 2.5 months and only getting back in mid-February. Not sure if that's even accurate, but the source was a good one.

Bisonguy06 wrote:If you think there's a better way to choose officials, let's hear it.


I do have some suggestions. First, all regions should have a nomination process directly to the NDHSAA, that has nothing to do with coaches. It should come from someone attached to officials. We don't need officials ingratiating themselves to certain coaches because their word carries weight. I'm an official (not basketball, and not looking for a promotion), and we know who does a good job and who doesn't. We should have officials making recommendations on who deserves those assignments.

After those recommendations are made, the head of officials at the NDHSAA should travel out and observe them in action. I don't think this ever happens. It should actually take some work by the NDHSAA to determine who gets to officiate.
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Re: State Tournament officiating

Postby Sportsrube » Tue Mar 07, 2017 4:16 pm

moverandshaker wrote:
Sportsrube wrote:
moverandshaker wrote:It was probably the worst state championship officiating I've ever seen. The whole tournament was out of control, but the championship game was terrible. The taller ref with glasses was probably the worst official I've ever watched. Calls when there was nothing at all and let the holding in the paint happen all tournament. I would be curious to have them sit down and watch the game after the fact and explain the absolute bull that they called throughout the tourney. I have a lot of respect for those that officiate, but if your going to be biased and call the game for your favorite then you should step out of the position.


Sounds like a North Star fan. They are always looking for more officials, take the test and put on the shirt and whistle.


That is an amazing comeback, if I had your knowledge I would ace the test. Is it possible the truth hurts? As stated, I have a lot of respect for officials and what they do. They do take a lot of heat from the crowd day in and day out and for that my hat goes off to them. I just call a spade a spade, my bad.



Not butt hurt at all, and I am not an official - I sit on the other side of that job. In all my years of sitting on the bench I have never seen an official purposely miss a call and I have only seen an official allow their personal feelings get in the way of their job (same official in a couple of different games) a few times. Like I said, they are always looking for more officials and the pay is actually pretty good.
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Re: State Tournament officiating

Postby ndlionsfan » Tue Mar 07, 2017 7:22 pm

my_$0.02 wrote:Is face gurarding legal in basketball. I saw a player with both hands in the face of that kvilvang player from northstar. The defender literally had both hands in the face. I have never seen that before. Just curious.


How is it different than getting a hand in someone's face on a shot? Was the defender purposely keeping their hands in her face or was it a case of a 5'8" player with both hands up and back to the ball to try to defend her and they just happened to reach to her face?
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Re: State Tournament officiating

Postby heimer » Tue Mar 07, 2017 9:27 pm

Sportsrube wrote:
moverandshaker wrote:
Sportsrube wrote:
moverandshaker wrote:It was probably the worst state championship officiating I've ever seen. The whole tournament was out of control, but the championship game was terrible. The taller ref with glasses was probably the worst official I've ever watched. Calls when there was nothing at all and let the holding in the paint happen all tournament. I would be curious to have them sit down and watch the game after the fact and explain the absolute bull that they called throughout the tourney. I have a lot of respect for those that officiate, but if your going to be biased and call the game for your favorite then you should step out of the position.


Sounds like a North Star fan. They are always looking for more officials, take the test and put on the shirt and whistle.


That is an amazing comeback, if I had your knowledge I would ace the test. Is it possible the truth hurts? As stated, I have a lot of respect for officials and what they do. They do take a lot of heat from the crowd day in and day out and for that my hat goes off to them. I just call a spade a spade, my bad.



Not butt hurt at all, and I am not an official - I sit on the other side of that job. In all my years of sitting on the bench I have never seen an official purposely miss a call and I have only seen an official allow their personal feelings get in the way of their job (same official in a couple of different games) a few times. Like I said, they are always looking for more officials and the pay is actually pretty good.


You miss the point.

If the spots in state tournaments are so pre-ordained that you can skip 10 weeks of a 12-week season and still get a spot, why would anyone ever want to start officiating.

The NDHSAA kills itself with its own policies
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Re: State Tournament officiating

Postby Bisonguy06 » Tue Mar 07, 2017 9:29 pm

heimer wrote:
Bisonguy06 wrote:Seems like this system is about like the media picking class B all state. A bunch of people casting votes despite never seeing 80% of the people on the list in action. A flawed system, but an impossible task to get 'right.'

And refs don't even have stats or won-loss records to enter into the discussion.

Right now you've lobbed a slow pitch softball right down the heart of the plate, looking for people to take their swing at refs and at the system.

Go ahead, you be the first to swing.


As I said, the only game I saw was the title game, and that through TV. I have no input on what the officiating was like. I was surprised to hear that one of the officials at the tournament kept an assignment after snow-birding for 2.5 months and only getting back in mid-February. Not sure if that's even accurate, but the source was a good one.

Bisonguy06 wrote:If you think there's a better way to choose officials, let's hear it.


I do have some suggestions. First, all regions should have a nomination process directly to the NDHSAA, that has nothing to do with coaches. It should come from someone attached to officials. We don't need officials ingratiating themselves to certain coaches because their word carries weight. I'm an official (not basketball, and not looking for a promotion), and we know who does a good job and who doesn't. We should have officials making recommendations on who deserves those assignments.

After those recommendations are made, the head of officials at the NDHSAA should travel out and observe them in action. I don't think this ever happens. It should actually take some work by the NDHSAA to determine who gets to officiate.


- I like officials making recommendations on a regional basis.
- I don't think NDHSAA has the manpower to get out and observe a large # of referees
- I don't think a referee can butter up enough coaches to get a state assignment simply by campaigning
- A better, merit based system is certainly worth pursuing, but the same number of people will complain about officiating despite your best efforts. Just accept that as you move forward. Everyone thinks they can officiate, just like everyone thinks they can coach.
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Re: State Tournament officiating

Postby Bisonguy06 » Tue Mar 07, 2017 9:40 pm

Your average class B coach sees roughly 10% of the state referee pool in action in any given year. If you are a rookie coach, you only know that 10%. Even if you are a veteran, I can't imagine you would know more than one third of the names in the statewide pool. Essentially, the coaches are voting on a list of strangers. Of course there is a bias toward nominating names that are most familiar, whether it's a vote for someone from your own region or someone who has previous state tournament experience. 7/8ths of the state or more would have no clue if someone on that list took a long midseason vacation.

With the default being votes for the "good ol boys", your most talented up and coming referee is going to have a hard time developing statewide name recognition to get the tourney assignment. I acknowledge that that is a problem.
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