3 class system

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3 class system

Postby tmd33643 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:53 pm

I know there are some people in North Dakota who are strongly opposed to having a three-class system for various reasons. And there are some who strongly support it for various reasons.

However, I'm not interested in this turning into a debate about that. I am really just looking for opinions on how the best three-class system could be set up in North Dakota. What would be the best way to do it? Like South Dakota (I know very little about it)? How does Minnesota put schools in different classes? Should we do it like our football system?

Here are some of my opinions:

I think the top class should be called AA and should obviously have the biggest schools like Century, Bismarck, Mandan, Fargo Davies, etc.

I think the middle class should be called A and should have the parochial schools like Dickinson Trinity, Shiloh,, Oak Grove, Bishop Ryan, etc. plus all the other medium sized schools like Watford City, Valley City, Four Winds, Northern Cass, Williston, Beulahl, Kindred, etc. (I don't know the exact size of the schools I mentioned but I assume all have 250 students or more in their HS.

I think the bottom class should be called B and have the smaller schools like White Shield, Center-Stanton, Max, etc.

Again, just looking for opinions on how to set up a successful 3-class system in ND.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby The Schwab » Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:31 pm

Your plan would be a good one, a similar plan passed the district chairs meeting 14-2, but NDHSAA voted against discussing it.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby tmd33643 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:43 pm

Was there any reason given to why NDHSAA voted against it?
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Re: 3 class system

Postby The Schwab » Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:55 pm

Said it didn't include Volleyball so they wouldn't talk about it.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby wem » Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:16 pm

I was for 3-class at one time. Not anymore. About the time this would all get passed and in place there will be more coops going on in the state. The co-ops in the state will take care of quite a few of small schools in due time. The smaller schools will become larger enrollment wise with the combined enrollment of a co-op. Don't wreck a good thing, the B.
Private schools, I don't know what to do with them. They do have an advantage vs. the rest of class B. But it is so sweet when they get beat by the small guy. So sweet!
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Re: 3 class system

Postby imjustafan » Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:03 pm

Did anyone notice that there was a resolution in the state House to urge "the North Dakota High School Activities Association to expand the classification of schools in the state for boys and girls basketball to include a third tier and to rename the tiers Class AAA, Class AA, and Class A and to expand athletic offerings to include six-man football." (HCR 3012) This was sponsored by several members of legislative districts just outside of larger cities (Minot, Williston and Dickinson) among others. The House education committee unanimously recommended "Do Not Pass" and the full house voted the resolution down on a voice vote.

Looks like the legislature doesn't want to add pressure to this either.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby eastwood » Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:08 pm

I know this is a complicated issue but, when the small schools have to play another team in their district or region where any one class, 9-12 is bigger than the small schools whole high school, something is wrong. If the NDHSAA is taking the approach that eventually small schools will have to co-op and the problem will fix itself, they are just kicking the can down the road. That mentality is ignorant at best. That would be like them saying that kids that need title 1 help, and/or are on IEPs, need to be just pushed through the system and eventually they will graduate. Now that is education related and people would be in an uproar at the "kick the can down the road" approach. A lot of the small towns are maintaining their enrollment and it is a constant issue year in and year out. For them it seems to go in cycles, for a few years you have good participation levels, and then you have the down years where they struggle to get a team on the court and have to bring up Jr. High to do it. And this swings back and forth. Two schools that are somewhat close in this position don't want to co-op because they can foresee in a couple years they will be fine. But through the whole time they still have to compete with the teams that dominate every year, have there 2nd 3rd and even 4th player off the bench, also being 11th or 12th graders, maybe a good 10th grader, that have the talent and would be the best player on the small schools team if they were on it.
This issue has been tossed around for what? 30 years now. I think at this point the powers that be, are overcomplicating the issue. Come up with a plan, that's their job, and do it. Tweak it down the road if needed but for cryng out loud, address the issue.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby wem » Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:52 am

I got the feelin your one of them people that everyone should get a trophy even if they stink.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby eastwood » Sun Feb 26, 2017 3:55 pm

You couldn't be further from the truth. I am and always have been against trophys for all. But there does come a point when it is ridicous that a small school is playing against the big B's. putting my point in perspective, it would be like Devils Lake, Lake Region playing NDSU or UND. University of Mary playing the University of MN. What if they were all in the same division. So, I am not at all a everyone gets a trophy. That whole concept irritates me more than you will ever know. But when you have a school with 35 students in 9-12 playing a school that has 320 in 9-12 something isn't right.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby wem » Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:27 am

Who in class b has that kind of enrollment. I'm sure there is, but it is the exception rather than the rule. I know a team or two that you might be thinking of that didn't make it thru playin games. I'm from a small school, no coops etc., so I don't have a biased opinion. My advise to you is get better. When you do, the victories will be very sweet. There are a number of schools with 90 or less students that are very competitive. Also, your Lake Region vs. the U of M comparison is dumb. At college level it has nothing to do with your enrollment, its about the amount of schlorships that the school is willing and allowed to give out.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby tmd33643 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:41 am

I agree with you Eastwood. And wem, some schools will never be able to get better enough to compete with some of the bigger schools or parochial schools. No matter how much they practice. There are too many schools that never make it to regionals (and if they do, they won't win the 1st game) or past the first game or two of the super regionals. And there are schools like Valley City in A who can't compete with the bigger class A schools. It would be better for North Dakota to have a 3 class system, not because it would result in everyone getting a trophy. There would actually only be two more teams getting a trophy. There would be less games that have 30 to 40 point blowouts. No player, coach, or fan enjoys those games.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby wem » Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:02 am

Ok, enjoy the 3-4 hour bus trips and try and push that through your school, #1 is still academics. Don't no what you mean by some schools will never get better. It is because of your kind of attitude that they wont. Change of attitude goes a long way.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby hawkeye99 » Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:55 pm

Is North Dakota the last State to have a 2 class system? Most States have several basketball classes to align enrollment numbers into a similar range. Iowa has 5 classes for Girl's basketball and 4 for Boy's basketball, great games almost every night, classifications are evaluated/changed every 2 years. Teams form conferences somewhat geographically without regard to class ranking to simplify travel. Line up in regions (8 regions with 8 teams in most classes, the highest class is limited to the largest 48 schools) for post season. Seems like ND could do something along the lines of 16 largest enrollments in one class, the next 64 in another class, the remainder in the smallest class.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Flip » Tue Mar 07, 2017 1:40 pm

hawkeye99 wrote:Is North Dakota the last State to have a 2 class system?

This is a good question. I don't know the answer.

Seems like ND could do something along the lines of 16 largest enrollments in one class, the next 64 in another class, the remainder in the smallest class.

It would probably be something along the lines of 16 for the largest enrollments, 32 for the middle class, and everyone else in the lowest class.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby The Schwab » Tue Mar 07, 2017 1:55 pm

Nope there is another state that has 2 classes....Delaware I believe
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Tue Mar 07, 2017 2:12 pm

The Schwab wrote:Nope there is another state that has 2 classes....Delaware I believe


Doesn't Kentucky have low number of classes too?? I remember something from the past about them
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Flip » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:51 pm

Anyone know of a state that allows less than 19 games?
MN is 26. I think SD is 20
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Re: 3 class system

Postby wem » Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:05 am

OK, put privates in class A and leave everything else alone. Still only 2 classes which I will not change on.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Bisonguy06 » Sat Mar 11, 2017 3:45 pm

All of these other states that are dividing up their pie into more slices… They are also dividing a much bigger pie. I don't necessarily think the state by state comparisons are helpful.

North Dakota has just nine towns with population greater than 15,000. Just 8 more have population between 3000 and 15,000. Where exactly is your middle class in a three class system going to come from?
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Re: 3 class system

Postby eastwood » Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:29 am

Any class system is going to be off of enrollment numbers. But enrollment numbers correlate with city population for the most part. A three class system could be class AAA towns of 10,000 or more (wherever the enrollment numbers fall). AA towns 2000-9999 and A being the rest under 2000. I would guess that the enrollment numbers for 9-12 would be somewhere around AAA-450 9-12 and above, AA-200-450 and A 199 and below. I'm sure there are plenty of you on here who have taken up this topic before and have your opinions as well but I just have a hard time seeing the sense in a team from a city of 300 or 500 playing a team from a city of 5,000, for example. Where there are more senior boys on the team from the bigger school than high school(9-12) boys on the smaller city team. And, 90% of all the boys in HS are out for BB in the smaller city. Maybe my example is an extreme one, but it is happening at plenty of schools. And I am not saying that everyone should get a trophy, on the contrary, play the game against similar competition levels. As far as my earlier comparison in my other post, I understand that college levels are based on the amount of scholarships that the allowed to give out but think about it, open minded thinking, compare that idea to available students(enrollment) at the HS level. It wouldn't make sense for a large college that offers 8 full rides a year to go up against a small college that can only offer 2.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby The Schwab » Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:01 am

The 3 class system talk is about 20 years too late, it should have happened before all the co-ops started happening. I ask you though, why did all these co-ops happen? I know a lot of schools co-oped for the chance to just be able to compete with the larger schools in their districts/regions. Right now we have a broken system. I understand that people from regions 2, 4 and 8 might not see the system as broken and that's fine, everyone is entitled to their opinion. My thoughts on how to better fix the system rather then a traditional 3 class system (because the NDHSAA has made it clear that no matter what it's members want, this will NEVER happen) is to lower the cutoff number to class A. Have the top class of 20 teams be in high A, Low A be the next 20 teams and have two regions for each class. Top four from each region in High and Low "A" qualify for the state tournament, use a QRF formula (this way they could schedule bigger class B schools and wouldn't kill rivalries or make unrealistic travel) to seed them 1-16 (have 2 games each at 4 neutral site locations (GF, Fargo, Minot, Bismarck)) winner of those 8 qualifying games qualifies for the state Class A tournament. For this to work all schools with non-defined borders couldn't play in class B. This way you would have a chance for great matchups, the NDHSAA would love it because they'd make more money and it would bring back a small town feel to class B basketball. Just my two cents, take it for what it's worth.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby eastwood » Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:38 am

I like that idea if I understand it correctly. What got me thinking about this whole ND system is I know what I see in my area. But I had to travel to the western part of the state last month. I was in Watford City when the class B region 8 tournament was going on. So, I went to the games the last two nights. First of all, I could not believe after driving around Watford City that they are in Class B. And the facility is unbelievable. The new high school is attached to the Rough Rider Center so appearance wise it looks like one big high school. But, I didn't know that until someone explained it to me. I felt like I was in a D1 college facility. Very nice to say the least. My travels took me to Williston the next week, and then up to Crosby and some other towns up there in NW ND. I realized I was driving through some of the same towns that played in the Region 8 tournament. Wow, to think that Crosby, Lignite, Powers Lake, Ray etc. are playing against Watford City, I found utterly amazing. It explained what I witnessed the previous week at the tournament. I did some searching and from what I found, Watford City is supposed to go Class A in the future. Their population is somewhere around 3500 on paper, but driving around it seems as big as Williston and before I looked up the population I guessed Watford City to be at least 10,000. Aside from the topic, if anyone gets a chance to get to Watford City you gotta check out the Roughrider Center, it is unbelievable, BB arena that's seat around 2500, 2 hockey rinks, indoor Olympic size swimming pool, (I think), three practice BB and VB courts, and a commons area that is state of the art. All under one roof, and that isn't even including the high school which I didn't see, but I was told its very similar to the Roughrider Center arena and seat over 2000. A football field that is very picturesque and a baseball facility that is state of the art as well. All I could say is Wow.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:48 am

The Schwab wrote:Have the top class of 20 teams be in high A, Low A be the next 20 teams and have two regions for each class. Top four from each region in High and Low "A" qualify for the state tournament, use a QRF formula (this way they could schedule bigger class B schools and wouldn't kill rivalries or make unrealistic travel) to seed them 1-16 (have 2 games each at 4 neutral site locations (GF, Fargo, Minot, Bismarck)) winner of those 8 qualifying games qualifies for the state Class A tournament. For this to work all schools with non-defined borders couldn't play in class B.


This would be a good system. Past Argument: Some of the class A teams that go every year would have to stay home (currently 42% of class A teams go to state vs. 8% for class B). Yes, they might be better than some of the lower class a teams that would be going. That happens in every system. Many times 2 of the best teams in state are in the same region and 1 has to stay home. So it shouldn't be an argument.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby ProudPirate » Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:32 pm

Nice thing is we can discuss this all we want but the NDHSAA is like most state agencies, they do what they want, when they want. From personal experience, they do not listen to coaches, AD's, the public, etc.. I compare it to Game & Fish, they have these advisory meetings, but don't care what the people say or want. Until there is change at the top, there will be NO 3 class system. District's, Regions, Ad's can vote all they want, it doesn't matter. I'm up for a change but i do not have the answer. Off season stuff plays alot into it too. Camps, Clinics specialized coaching all are more accessible to larger communities & therefore cheaper & easier to attend. When you can go 10minutes to Sanford Power & i gotta go 65 miles, who's going to be a better athlete? Alot behind all this, could write a book. Lets just hope for commom cents & change while watching the best sporting event in ND the "B".
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Re: 3 class system

Postby balla45 » Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:21 pm

The Schwab wrote:The 3 class system talk is about 20 years too late, it should have happened before all the co-ops started happening. I ask you though, why did all these co-ops happen? I know a lot of schools co-oped for the chance to just be able to compete with the larger schools in their districts/regions. Right now we have a broken system. I understand that people from regions 2, 4 and 8 might not see the system as broken and that's fine, everyone is entitled to their opinion. My thoughts on how to better fix the system rather then a traditional 3 class system (because the NDHSAA has made it clear that no matter what it's members want, this will NEVER happen) is to lower the cutoff number to class A. Have the top class of 20 teams be in high A, Low A be the next 20 teams and have two regions for each class. Top four from each region in High and Low "A" qualify for the state tournament, use a QRF formula (this way they could schedule bigger class B schools and wouldn't kill rivalries or make unrealistic travel) to seed them 1-16 (have 2 games each at 4 neutral site locations (GF, Fargo, Minot, Bismarck)) winner of those 8 qualifying games qualifies for the state Class A tournament. For this to work all schools with non-defined borders couldn't play in class B. This way you would have a chance for great matchups, the NDHSAA would love it because they'd make more money and it would bring back a small town feel to class B basketball. Just my two cents, take it for what it's worth.


I still hate this idea. Teams would consistently be at the A tournament that are not good enough to be there creating some gross basketball.
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