Class A vs. Class AA

The teams in Class A

Class A vs. Class AA

Postby Rivershark » Tue Aug 30, 2016 12:38 am

Doesn't look like the class AA teams faired to well against the class A teams in Week #1
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Re: Class A vs. Class AA

Postby NDPREP » Tue Aug 30, 2016 7:14 am

Most of the bad AA teams played A teams and had tight games except Turtle Mountain, they are REALLY bad. The top AA teams played each other for the most part Shanley, St Mary, Valley, Wahp, Centrall Cass. Beulah and Trinity played A teams but handled business.
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Re: Class A vs. Class AA

Postby Mailman_25 » Tue Aug 30, 2016 7:24 am

The only thing that this shows is what many have been arguing for many years - the AA is and has been a broken system that has allowed schools like Shanley, St. Mary's and such to load up on wins against teams that are no different than most A teams.
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Re: Class A vs. Class AA

Postby NDPREP » Tue Aug 30, 2016 8:17 am

Mailman_25 wrote:The only thing that this shows is what many have been arguing for many years - the AA is and has been a broken system that has allowed schools like Shanley, St. Mary's and such to load up on wins against teams that are no different than most A teams.



Exactly
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Re: Class A vs. Class AA

Postby heimer » Tue Aug 30, 2016 11:52 am

Yep, here we go again. Four classes bad, three classes better.

Beulah won the darn state title last year. Watford City has won the state AA title. Grafton has won it.

Carrington was a regular playoff team before moving down. Valley City has gone 0-9 and been a runner up.

AA is the most competitive class of football. If the A schools that can compete want to join it, feel free to opt up. Don't crash the system.

This is no different than the Kool-Aid drinking B-shot hippies that think their champ can win every year over the A champ because of some stupid all-star game in the summer. Four Winds is playing in the sunshine of the A state tourney last year, no matter the opponent.

If you think you're that good, opt up. Otherwise, shut up. Either way, the answer is up.
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Re: Class A vs. Class AA

Postby Mailman_25 » Tue Aug 30, 2016 2:57 pm

Shanley and St. Mary's joined the AA in 2009. Carrington left the AA in 2012. Watford City won in 2008 before the AAA schools dropped. The AA that existed from 1997-2008 is not comparable to the 2009-present construction.

Heimer - serious question - How many AA East Region games has Shanley lost since joining the AA in 2009?
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Re: Class A vs. Class AA

Postby heimer » Tue Aug 30, 2016 3:28 pm

Not sure. I don't keep stats on every team in the league.

But you're talking out both sides of your mouth. The thread suggest that A and AA are the same thing. They are not. How many games would Shanley lose to A East Region teams? I don't see Oakes, Larimore, Milnor-NS, Carrington, et. al, giving them any kind of a push.

So, is your problem Shanley and St. Mary's, or the system?

I hear this crap all the time. So-and-so A power could step right up and compete with the AA level. That died with Cavalier. Cavalier won AA titles with A enrollment, but those teams would have killed A teams every year also.

If your problem is the system, prove it. Convince those A coaches that bigger riches and rewards await them in the fantasy land AA football, and lets see how they do.

If your problem is Shanley, you have four places to level your anger:

Shanley
Devils Lake
Belcourt
AAA

Shanley because they recruit

Devils Lake because they got us into this mess

Belcourt because they let Devils Lake get us into this mess.

AAA because they reacted badly to the mess.

Timeline:

AAA was 16 teams (pre Sheyenne and Legacy). The NDHSAA was simply reclassing all the native american schools down a class for no other reason than they were native american schools (pre free-and-reduced meals).

Devils Lake was stuck in AAA because Belcourt kept getting bumped down, making Devils Lake, with a smaller enrollment, bump up. So, Superintendent Steve Swiontek threatened a reverse racism lawsuit against the NDHSAA.

The NDHSAA did what they always do when threatened with a lawsuit. They pulled out the manual that deals with reacting to prospective lawsuits, which states the following:

1. Pi$$ your pants.
2. Call a lawyer
3. Don't trust the lawyer
4. Give Central Ca.....wait.....Watford Ci.....wait.....Linto.....wait.....Graft.....wait.....Devils Lake, yeah, that's right, Devils Lake whatever they want.

Only the manual has an additional step when it's either Devils Lake or Valley City:

4B: Come up with a way to screw them later.

And Free and Reduced meals was born, but only applying if over 60% of your students were on it, so, basically, the native american schools.

And Devils Lake went back up.

But, during the time they were down, Belcourt got kicked like a ball in the deciding game of a Vikings postseason contest----hard, fast, and silly. So, one year, Belcourt told the AAA world in July that they quit.....as in.....no varsity schedule.

So, Fargo South, and North, and Red River, and Central, and West Fargo.......etc.......all had to find replacement games. Some went to Apple Valley, MN, some snagged another game, some didn't find one.

And all decided that the AAA class couldn't tolerate anymore shenanigans, so they limited the class to 14, then expanded it to 16 for Sheyenne and Legacy.

THEY ALSO FORBADE ANY TEAMS FROM OPTING UP TO AAA. Shanley and St Mary's have no choice in the matter.

I have pleaded and pleaded for a 10-10 system. We're getting closer, but some of you can't see your way past your own 1950's era two-class bulls--- to allow it.

AAA (no regions):

Minot
West Fargo
Century
Legacy
Bismarck
Williston
Davies
Sheyenne
Red River
Mandan

AA

South
Dickinson
Central
North
Jamestown
Devils Lake
St. Marys
Shanley
Watford City
Belcourt

Want to make it better: Here's 12-12

AAA (no regions):

Minot
West Fargo
Century
Legacy
Bismarck
Williston
Davies
Sheyenne
Red River
Mandan
South
Dickinson

AA

Central
North
Jamestown
Devils Lake
St. Marys
Shanley
Watford City
Belcourt
Wahpeton
Valley City
Central Cass
Grafton

Tell me that AA class not cool. I would go to any game involving two teams, save for Belcourt, but they have some work to do anyway, no matter the class.

But we can't get out of our own way to limit class sizes because we think any title is illegitimate till you destroy six teams that have no business playing with you and three teams that can actually push you.

Thats not on Shanley, St. Mary's, the NDHSAA, or the system. Thats on you. Recognize football for what it is, and we can improve the game.
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Re: Class A vs. Class AA

Postby wan2bqb » Tue Aug 30, 2016 4:22 pm

Here is the deal. Every year you could find a handful of teams from any class that could go up and be competitive in the class above them. And every year there are probably a handful that could win the majority of their games at the next class up. Just as every year there are a handful that would lose going down. Its the nature of the beast. Each class has a handful of teams that consistently rise up to play above there level. I would wager to say that last years Richland team would have beaten many of the class A schools if they played them at 11man. Just like this year (please anyone from Richland don't take offense) but I think that challenge is not likely to happen. Difference is the class AAA schools have numbers and at the 9-man, A and to some extent AA you fall prey to the fact if the classes are small I don't care how much talent they have you still have to put 9 or 11 kids on the field all the time. Great coaches and programs will always be competitive but if you cant get numbers you just fall to the ebbs and tides of classes being talented and large or not.
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Re: Class A vs. Class AA

Postby Mailman_25 » Tue Aug 30, 2016 7:22 pm

Heimer - Other than the original post by Rivershark, no one is saying that a A team could beat the top half of AA. Certainly not me. My point is the AAA teams like Shanley and St. Mary's should not be playing teams like Griggs Barnes County and Enderlin. Its a broken system that the NDHSAA finally was pressured to change.

Furthermore, I am in favor of a class sytem for ND football that is similar to the SD model. I would have 3 classes of 11 man and 2 classes of 9 man.
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Re: Class A vs. Class AA

Postby heimer » Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:26 am

Don't even try five classes. The homesteaders that frequent this forum will be quick to kill that. Back in the one-room school house, you didn't even need classes.

Of football.
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Re: Class A vs. Class AA

Postby Rivershark » Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:12 am

Mailman_25 wrote:Heimer - Other than the original post by Rivershark, no one is saying that a A team could beat the top half of AA. Certainly not me. My point is the AAA teams like Shanley and St. Mary's should not be playing teams like Griggs Barnes County and Enderlin. Its a broken system that the NDHSAA finally was pressured to change.

Furthermore, I am in favor of a class sytem for ND football that is similar to the SD model. I would have 3 classes of 11 man and 2 classes of 9 man.


I don't believe I insinuated that Class "A" could beat the top half of AA. I was just hoping to get a conversation going on these Class "A" teams to get a better understanding of the top teams in the Class "A".
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Re: Class A vs. Class AA

Postby heimer » Wed Aug 31, 2016 11:51 am

It was the claims of Mailman and NDPREP that drew my response.

However, I will be suspect of all statements like the one you made.

This state absolutely $ucks when it comes to the archaic, backwoods approach to classification. Anyone who would suggest we don't need at least four classes of football is a jack wagon.

Sorry not sorry. I have more time for two classes of basketball than three classes of football. And, as many of you know, I have no time for two classes of basketball.

The idea that AA and A could be one class is floated every year, usually by the NE part of the state (and it was again), because Grafton finally has to play the big boys by force, rather than by choice. Central Cass also. It's time for them to get a taste of what they do to TRULY small schools.

And the NDHSAA regularly takes it up the tailpipe to accommodate. I'm glad they have stuck to this.
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Re: Class A vs. Class AA

Postby Mailman_25 » Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:13 pm

In this case Heimer, I think we are pretty much in agreement on FB in North Dakota. I think maybe you either misinterpreted the intended message of my post or I wasn't as clear as I should've been. Rivershark - I also misinterpreted your post as well. Regardless, I appreciate the efforts to get some discussions rolling. The AA board is rather boring.
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Re: Class A vs. Class AA

Postby 5-time state chump » Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:29 pm

There should be 8 classes, each consisting of 4 regions, so teams are all playing teams their size.

Class AAA
Class AA
Class AAB
Class A
Class AB
Class B
Class BA
Class C2
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Re: Class A vs. Class AA

Postby Mailman_25 » Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:43 pm

5-time state chump wrote:There should be 8 classes, each consisting of 4 regions, so teams are all playing teams their size.

Class AAA
Class AA
Class AAB
Class A
Class AB
Class B
Class BA
Class C2


I hear ya 5-time, but I don't think keeping the current system of 3 classes of 11 man and dividing 9 man into 2 divisions is that extreme. In fact, it did get a lot of traction with the NDHSAA football committee this past year. The hope is that it would encourage some teams that currently coop to form their own teams. Maybe creates some natural rivalries. Maybe creates more school spirit. Maybe I am off my rocker, but I don't think this proposal creates an "everybody gets a trophy system." Instead of the two 9 man divisions, the NDHSAA football committee is going the 6 man football route. Don't see that getting much interest
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Re: Class A vs. Class AA

Postby ndlionsfan » Thu Sep 01, 2016 8:23 am

Mailman_25 wrote:
5-time state chump wrote:There should be 8 classes, each consisting of 4 regions, so teams are all playing teams their size.

Class AAA
Class AA
Class AAB
Class A
Class AB
Class B
Class BA
Class C2


I hear ya 5-time, but I don't think keeping the current system of 3 classes of 11 man and dividing 9 man into 2 divisions is that extreme. In fact, it did get a lot of traction with the NDHSAA football committee this past year. The hope is that it would encourage some teams that currently coop to form their own teams. Maybe creates some natural rivalries. Maybe creates more school spirit. Maybe I am off my rocker, but I don't think this proposal creates an "everybody gets a trophy system." Instead of the two 9 man divisions, the NDHSAA football committee is going the 6 man football route. Don't see that getting much interest


The 6man idea hits these same areas as well, but makes it a bit easier for the smaller school to field a team with 3 less players on the field. I don't think you see coops dissolve with 2 9man divisions, but you have that chance for some with 6man.
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Re: Class A vs. Class AA

Postby winners&losers » Thu Sep 01, 2016 9:44 am

heimer wrote:Not sure. I don't keep stats on every team in the league.

But you're talking out both sides of your mouth. The thread suggest that A and AA are the same thing. They are not. How many games would Shanley lose to A East Region teams? I don't see Oakes, Larimore, Milnor-NS, Carrington, et. al, giving them any kind of a push.

So, is your problem Shanley and St. Mary's, or the system?

I hear this crap all the time. So-and-so A power could step right up and compete with the AA level. That died with Cavalier. Cavalier won AA titles with A enrollment, but those teams would have killed A teams every year also.

If your problem is the system, prove it. Convince those A coaches that bigger riches and rewards await them in the fantasy land AA football, and lets see how they do.

If your problem is Shanley, you have four places to level your anger:

Shanley
Devils Lake
Belcourt
AAA

Shanley because they recruit

Devils Lake because they got us into this mess

Belcourt because they let Devils Lake get us into this mess.

AAA because they reacted badly to the mess.

Timeline:

AAA was 16 teams (pre Sheyenne and Legacy). The NDHSAA was simply reclassing all the native american schools down a class for no other reason than they were native american schools (pre free-and-reduced meals).

Devils Lake was stuck in AAA because Belcourt kept getting bumped down, making Devils Lake, with a smaller enrollment, bump up. So, Superintendent Steve Swiontek threatened a reverse racism lawsuit against the NDHSAA.

The NDHSAA did what they always do when threatened with a lawsuit. They pulled out the manual that deals with reacting to prospective lawsuits, which states the following:

1. Pi$$ your pants.
2. Call a lawyer
3. Don't trust the lawyer
4. Give Central Ca.....wait.....Watford Ci.....wait.....Linto.....wait.....Graft.....wait.....Devils Lake, yeah, that's right, Devils Lake whatever they want.

Only the manual has an additional step when it's either Devils Lake or Valley City:

4B: Come up with a way to screw them later.

And Free and Reduced meals was born, but only applying if over 60% of your students were on it, so, basically, the native american schools.

And Devils Lake went back up.

But, during the time they were down, Belcourt got kicked like a ball in the deciding game of a Vikings postseason contest----hard, fast, and silly. So, one year, Belcourt told the AAA world in July that they quit.....as in.....no varsity schedule.

So, Fargo South, and North, and Red River, and Central, and West Fargo.......etc.......all had to find replacement games. Some went to Apple Valley, MN, some snagged another game, some didn't find one.

And all decided that the AAA class couldn't tolerate anymore shenanigans, so they limited the class to 14, then expanded it to 16 for Sheyenne and Legacy.

THEY ALSO FORBADE ANY TEAMS FROM OPTING UP TO AAA. Shanley and St Mary's have no choice in the matter.

I have pleaded and pleaded for a 10-10 system. We're getting closer, but some of you can't see your way past your own 1950's era two-class bulls--- to allow it.

AAA (no regions):

Minot
West Fargo
Century
Legacy
Bismarck
Williston
Davies
Sheyenne
Red River
Mandan

AA

South
Dickinson
Central
North
Jamestown
Devils Lake
St. Marys
Shanley
Watford City
Belcourt

Want to make it better: Here's 12-12

AAA (no regions):

Minot
West Fargo
Century
Legacy
Bismarck
Williston
Davies
Sheyenne
Red River
Mandan
South
Dickinson

AA

Central
North
Jamestown
Devils Lake
St. Marys
Shanley
Watford City
Belcourt
Wahpeton
Valley City
Central Cass
Grafton

Tell me that AA class not cool. I would go to any game involving two teams, save for Belcourt, but they have some work to do anyway, no matter the class.

But we can't get out of our own way to limit class sizes because we think any title is illegitimate till you destroy six teams that have no business playing with you and three teams that can actually push you.

Thats not on Shanley, St. Mary's, the NDHSAA, or the system. Thats on you. Recognize football for what it is, and we can improve the game.



Cavalier is a bad example. They were suppose to step down to Single A and run through the state, until Velva absolutely throttled them in the state title game.

Also, your proposed plan has no chance of ever being used. Schools would have to make room for extra funds for traveling expenses. (williston going and playing in fargo/grand forks, or watford city playing shanley) It just wouldn't be able to be funded.
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Re: Class A vs. Class AA

Postby Mailman_25 » Thu Sep 01, 2016 10:07 am

winners&losers wrote:
Also, your proposed plan has no chance of ever being used. Schools would have to make room for extra funds for traveling expenses. (williston going and playing in fargo/grand forks, or watford city playing shanley) It just wouldn't be able to be funded.


It could already be happening as soon as next season.The new plan for 2017-2019 is creating a AA with only ten teams statewide. Watford City and Shanley are both in it. With just 10 teams in AA, it is creating the potential for a set 9 game schedule if everyone plays each other in the regular season. Scheduling and travel expenses are going to be a nightmare for these 10 teams. I am on record as being in favor of the concept of a new AA division, but not the 10 team plan that goes into effect next year.
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Re: Class A vs. Class AA

Postby The Schwab » Thu Sep 01, 2016 10:15 am

I really have a hard time thinking of expanding football past 4 divisions when we only have 2 divisions of basketball.
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Re: Class A vs. Class AA

Postby heimer » Thu Sep 01, 2016 11:46 am

In a proposed 10-team division, you don't have to play everyone.

Take a page out of MN's playbook and use QRF to seed the opponents for the playoffs. Let them make their own schedules.

Have a 13-week season, like 9-man gets now. Top six teams get a bye week in round one. 10 plays at 7, 9 plays at 8, then move on.

Works every year in MN with great success and no one ever complains.

But we won't do this. Takes an open mind, and we don't have that here in good ole Nort Dahhkoooohhhta.
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Re: Class A vs. Class AA

Postby winners&losers » Thu Sep 01, 2016 12:26 pm

I can't find where Minnesota does that, in any of their classes.
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Re: Class A vs. Class AA

Postby Flip » Thu Sep 01, 2016 1:42 pm

heimer wrote:In a proposed 10-team division, you don't have to play everyone.

Take a page out of MN's playbook and use QRF to seed the opponents for the playoffs. Let them make their own schedules.

Have a 13-week season, like 9-man gets now. Top six teams get a bye week in round one. 10 plays at 7, 9 plays at 8, then move on.

Works every year in MN with great success and no one ever complains.

But we won't do this. Takes an open mind, and we don't have that here in good ole Nort Dahhkoooohhhta.

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Re: Class A vs. Class AA

Postby heimer » Mon Sep 12, 2016 11:41 am

I've never heard a complaint from Minnesota's system. If others are complaining, it's not getting a lot of attention. Last year, EGF when to Aitkin, a sectional opponent, in the opening round. QRF determined the home game. No one complained, even though the teams never played.

I'd rather see EGF play Crookston than Aitkin, and I'd rather see VC play Jamestown than Stanley. Use QRF to determine seeding, and play a tournament.

Flip, are you saying we HAVE to play everyone in a region to make it work, and we HAVE to eliminate teams before the playoffs.

1958 called. It wants it's system back.
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