Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby Hinsa » Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:06 pm

ClassB4ever: I don't think you are putting ALL my thoughts together. I'm assuming this thought is why you have your undies in a bunch:

"Leave it at two classes. Teach kids about hard work."

The very next thought says: "Let them learn how rewarding over-achieving can be. Let them learn that no matter how much they work and overachieve, it doesn't always work out."

Where in those thoughts do I say that a kid is not working hard enough? My two main thoughts there are "Over-achieving is awesome" and "Sometimes it just isn't going to work out no matter how hard you work." To me, that mirrors what happens in the real world.

I want our kids to learn that you work hard to improve your chances and options in life. And sometimes it just isn't going to happen for you. I DO NOT want them to learn that if they complain enough about their lot in life someone is going to swoop in and fix things for them.

I've been on both sides of the fence you speak of. We were not the biggest school in our class. Not in our region. Not even in our district. And I was the little guy competing against the "big boys" of the system when trying to move up the employment ladder. I can identify with both sides of the fence.
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby classB4ever » Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:52 pm

Hinsa wrote:ClassB4ever: I don't think you are putting ALL my thoughts together. I'm assuming this thought is why you have your undies in a bunch:

"Leave it at two classes. Teach kids about hard work."

The very next thought says: "Let them learn how rewarding over-achieving can be. Let them learn that no matter how much they work and overachieve, it doesn't always work out."

Where in those thoughts do I say that a kid is not working hard enough? My two main thoughts there are "Over-achieving is awesome" and "Sometimes it just isn't going to work out no matter how hard you work." To me, that mirrors what happens in the real world.

I want our kids to learn that you work hard to improve your chances and options in life. And sometimes it just isn't going to happen for you. I DO NOT want them to learn that if they complain enough about their lot in life someone is going to swoop in and fix things for them.

I've been on both sides of the fence you speak of. We were not the biggest school in our class. Not in our region. Not even in our district. And I was the little guy competing against the "big boys" of the system when trying to move up the employment ladder. I can identify with both sides of the fence.


Undies in a bunch? Nice, well thought out statement. I am guessing that took you a while to think of, so will leave it alone.

Well, if every thing you wrote above is true, then having a system with with 18 AA schools (after new ones come on), 32 A schools and 78 B schools would be acceptable. Use a 1.8 multiplier on any private schools located inside our big towns, as well as the free and reduced meal multiplier on the other end. Split A and B schools up into four regions, each. They can cross schedule during the year to help with travel. At the end of the year, they play in super regionals. The 8 winners of each of those regions, 4 from A and 4 from B, go on to play in the same tournament as we know today. The coaches seed top 4 and draw from hat just like today. Looks to me like the same amount of trophies, so it won't be watered down one bit. In fact, it even brings in tougher competition so it will give the schools in A even more chances at life lessons. You should certainly be for that, correct?
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby The Schwab » Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:58 pm

I still believe you have the 32 biggest schools in ND play in A, the rest are B. If you want to split the top up into 16 AA and 16 A and have 4 from each play in the state tournament that's ok. I do not think you will be able to sell a 3 class system where nothing changes at the top.
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby Hinsa » Wed Apr 01, 2015 12:11 am

classB4ever wrote:Well, if every thing you wrote above is true, then having a system with with 18 AA schools (after new ones come on), 32 A schools and 78 B schools would be acceptable. Use a 1.8 multiplier on any private schools located inside our big towns, as well as the free and reduced meal multiplier on the other end. Split A and B schools up into four regions, each. They can cross schedule during the year to help with travel. At the end of the year, they play in super regionals. The 8 winners of each of those regions, 4 from A and 4 from B, go on to play in the same tournament as we know today. The coaches seed top 4 and draw from hat just like today. Looks to me like the same amount of trophies, so it won't be watered down one bit. In fact, it even brings in tougher competition so it will give the schools in A even more chances at life lessons. You should certainly be for that, correct?


As long as you get down to 2 state tournaments of 8 teams each like you have suggested here, that is a more palatable solution than 3 state tournaments. The thought of more classes during the regular season boiling down to 2 state tournaments has been floated on this site before and I could stomach that. I'd still rather stay at 2 classes for the whole season, but if there had to be a change, keeping 2 state tournaments but rearranging how the teams get to those tournaments would be tolerable.

Again, I'm just stating my thoughts and opinions on this subject. I'm not trying to prove I'm right. As a matter of fact, I don't think anyone can "prove" their idea is the correct one.

By the way, what is wrong about using past events as analogies that help in explaining an opinion? If the analogies are applicable, who cares how old they are? I merely used those analogies because they are events that every sports fan in the state can recognize and relate to.
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby classB4ever » Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:31 am

Hinsa wrote:Again, I'm just stating my thoughts and opinions on this subject. I'm not trying to prove I'm right. As a matter of fact, I don't think anyone can "prove" their idea is the correct one.

By the way, what is wrong about using past events as analogies that help in explaining an opinion? If the analogies are applicable, who cares how old they are? I merely used those analogies because they are events that every sports fan in the state can recognize and relate to.


There is nothing wrong if it is applicable.

Hinsa wrote:Would they have made a movie (Hoosiers) out of French Lick vs. Hanover in the state single A tournament (Indiana now has 4 classes up to four A) instead of Hickory (town of less than 1000) vs. Muncie Central (11th largest city in the state)? Of course not.


The "Hoosiers" game took place in 1954-55, in Indiana, in a 1 class system, it was never repeated again in 43 years, and Indiana left the 1 class system for a multi-class around 1997.

Hinsa wrote:
Well dammit, that ain't the way life works! You hit the work world you are NOT competing on a level playing field. You do NOT have a close to equal chance to get the business job against an Ivy League grad. You do NOT have a close to equal chance to get an on air radio job if you have a nasal cavity that makes you sound like Peter Griffin from Family Guy. You will NOT become a professional gambler if you get major pits whenever you are trying to run a bluff.


1. Just how many Ivy league grads have you lost jobs to? About how many do you think work in ND?
2. Would someone with a nasal condition even consider going into broadcasting?
3. Would you pursue gambling if you get major pits when bluffing?

My point is this, you choose to use examples like the above and the Hillsboro/Epping game from 1977 to debate this topic, but refuse to consider data actually attained from our existing system. The landscape of ND class b basketball in 1977 is not what it is today. The most common arguments used against the 3-class system on this site are:
1. Watering down the competition.
2. Handing out awards to everyone.
3. Hillsboro/Epping.
4. If it's not broke, don't fix it.
That's all fine and dandy. But when data is available showing a big picture of what is actually happening in our current system and you by-pass that to use the "Hickory" story. Well, is that really relevant? 2 cents.
Last edited by classB4ever on Mon Apr 06, 2015 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby Indy5 » Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:41 am

winner-within wrote:
another reason to just put privates in class A is that most of them have plenty of room for more students and they are already in the big citys of ND so it would instantly give opportunity for evening the plain with some students electing to go to a different school.........

So what you're saying is by moving them up a class where they'll have much less success, that will attract more students to come to these schools? You're also saying that these schools that are shrinking by the day will magically start adding kids by losing more games.

I tell you what. If you showed these schools proof that they could, double or increase their enrollment by 1.5 by moving up a class, they would do it in a heartbeat even if it meant rarely ever winning a game.
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby classB4ever » Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:51 am

Hinsa wrote:Again, I'm just stating my thoughts and opinions on this subject. I'm not trying to prove I'm right. As a matter of fact, I don't think anyone can "prove" their idea is the correct one.


On the above I agree with you 100%. If someone could come up with a concept and guarantee it would work, then I believe it would already be done. What drives me crazy is when someone tries to bring up a new idea on the subject, so many people revert back to these old analogies to shoot it down.
I do not have an answer. I like to discuss it because I'm a huge basketball fan. I think there are problems. I believe that hard work pays off. I hate giving out awards for anything. I personally think 1 trophy at the end of the year to the champs is enough in anything. And I think we can improve our current system to make it better for the fans and get more participation from our kids.
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby winner-within » Wed Apr 01, 2015 4:34 pm

Indy5 wrote:
winner-within wrote:
another reason to just put privates in class A is that most of them have plenty of room for more students and they are already in the big citys of ND so it would instantly give opportunity for evening the plain with some students electing to go to a different school.........

So what you're saying is by moving them up a class where they'll have much less success, that will attract more students to come to these schools? You're also saying that these schools that are shrinking by the day will magically start adding kids by losing more games.

I tell you what. If you showed these schools proof that they could, double or increase their enrollment by 1.5 by moving up a class, they would do it in a heartbeat even if it meant rarely ever winning a game.


How many Privates are Class in A as we speak?
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby HammerTime » Thu Apr 02, 2015 12:53 pm

2 I think. Shanley in Fargo and St. Mary's in Bismarck. And they both are only barely above the 325 line right now.
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby HammerTime » Thu Apr 02, 2015 12:58 pm

Also,
classB4ever wrote:My point is this, you choose to use examples like the above and the Hillsboro/Epping game from 1977 to debate this topic, but refuse to consider data actually attained from our existing system. The landscape of ND class b basketball in 1977 is not what it is today. The most common arguments used against the 3-class system on this site are:
1. Watering down the competition.
2. Handing out awards to everyone.
3. Hillsboro/Epping.
4. If it's not broke, don't fix it.
That's all fine and dandy. But when data is available showing a big picture of what is actually happening in our current system and you by-pass that to use the "Hickory" story. Well, is that really relevant? 2 cents.

Well said, Mr. ClassB4ever. Well said.
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby Indy5 » Thu Apr 02, 2015 5:09 pm

winner-within wrote:
Indy5 wrote:
winner-within wrote:
another reason to just put privates in class A is that most of them have plenty of room for more students and they are already in the big citys of ND so it would instantly give opportunity for evening the plain with some students electing to go to a different school.........

So what you're saying is by moving them up a class where they'll have much less success, that will attract more students to come to these schools? You're also saying that these schools that are shrinking by the day will magically start adding kids by losing more games.

I tell you what. If you showed these schools proof that they could, double or increase their enrollment by 1.5 by moving up a class, they would do it in a heartbeat even if it meant rarely ever winning a game.


How many Privates are Class in A as we speak?

As HammerTime said, 2. They are also in cities with double the population of Minot, and I don't even know how many times Dickinson/Williston. Yes, these towns are growing, but that hasn't led to any increase in enrollment for the private schools. Then there's Shiloh and Oak Grove. They're in those two biggest cities, but they're the third school (counting all publics as one), so they also are nowhere near class A. These schools have no business being blindly thrown in with the big city publics. St. Marys and Shanley compete, and if they ever drop below the line, I believe they'll still opt up. This is because they're both big and self-sustaining.
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby leroybla » Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:46 pm

When was the last year that there wasn't a private school competing the Boys Class B in ND?
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:02 pm

leroybla wrote:When was the last year that there wasn't a private school competing the Boys Class B in ND?


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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby justplayalready » Fri Apr 03, 2015 7:10 am

2009: The exception that proves the rule!!!

Good thing there was no controversy that year!!


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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby Sticks11 » Fri Apr 03, 2015 7:27 am

Nice justplayalready! I'll be saying that in my head all day now!

Zero controversy at all.......

Before 2009, I think you have to go back to 1997??
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby winner-within » Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:03 am

Indy5 wrote:
winner-within wrote:
Indy5 wrote:
winner-within wrote:
another reason to just put privates in class A is that most of them have plenty of room for more students and they are already in the big citys of ND so it would instantly give opportunity for evening the plain with some students electing to go to a different school.........

So what you're saying is by moving them up a class where they'll have much less success, that will attract more students to come to these schools? You're also saying that these schools that are shrinking by the day will magically start adding kids by losing more games.

I tell you what. If you showed these schools proof that they could, double or increase their enrollment by 1.5 by moving up a class, they would do it in a heartbeat even if it meant rarely ever winning a game.


How many Privates are Class in A as we speak?

As HammerTime said, 2. They are also in cities with double the population of Minot, and I don't even know how many times Dickinson/Williston. Yes, these towns are growing, but that hasn't led to any increase in enrollment for the private schools. Then there's Shiloh and Oak Grove. They're in those two biggest cities, but they're the third school (counting all publics as one), so they also are nowhere near class A. These schools have no business being blindly thrown in with the big city publics. St. Marys and Shanley compete, and if they ever drop below the line, I believe they'll still opt up. This is because they're both big and self-sustaining.


Ok perfect, I knew this but I wanted the thread to know this too....I honestly believe that if any private school gets an opportunity to entertain the fact that a student wants to come to their school and is a great athlete that they get excited fast....fair to say right? who wouldn't.....so with any private (like you say) they may not care necessarily what "Class They are in" but instead how competitive they are.......being in any city we know that the numbers are there and if the door says Class A on it...well then the wheel begins to turn in that direction and in a few years its all balanced regardless of enrollment...Football? could be another story but this is a basketball topic....
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby baloncesto » Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:09 am

Since when does being from a private school automatically make you a better player or a better team? Some people act like that this is an automatic advantage over everyone else and they discredit the hard work the kids put in. I understand they have a better opportunity to bring in transfers because of big schools being in the same town but at the end of the day its still 9-12 graders against 9-12 graders and its still schools with similar enrollment numbers playing against each other.
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby uspsrt » Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:22 am

baloncesto wrote:Since when does being from a private school automatically make you a better player or a better team? Some people act like that this is an automatic advantage over everyone else and they discredit the hard work the kids put in. I understand they have a better opportunity to bring in transfers because of big schools being in the same town but at the end of the day its still 9-12 graders against 9-12 graders and its still schools with similar enrollment numbers playing against each other.


You just answered your own question. Privates are not restricted by district boundaries and have an opportunity to accept transfers from anywhere. Of course other schools get transfers from time to time too, but not to the extent that privates do. I guess I just accept this as it is, but do not try to say that it is not an advantage to have unlimited access to talent. More good players have an advantage over less good players every time. Somewhere on this forum there is a post that documents how other states handle this situation. You should read it. A lot of them apply some type of multiplier to the privates to try to even the playing field by having them move up in class despite having a lower enrollment. In others states they simply do not compete against each other. I think there are 8 privates in North Dakota now and it might be useful to take a look at getting them all into class A or at least apply a multiplier. I think another advantage they have over rural publics is in retaining a quality coaching staff. If you are a young, talented coach fresh out of college seeking a basketball coaching position would you rather coach in a city where there is entertainment and restaurants or in a community that has much less to offer.
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby Indy5 » Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:51 pm

uspsrt wrote:
baloncesto wrote:Since when does being from a private school automatically make you a better player or a better team? Some people act like that this is an automatic advantage over everyone else and they discredit the hard work the kids put in. I understand they have a better opportunity to bring in transfers because of big schools being in the same town but at the end of the day its still 9-12 graders against 9-12 graders and its still schools with similar enrollment numbers playing against each other.


You just answered your own question. Privates are not restricted by district boundaries and have an opportunity to accept transfers from anywhere. Of course other schools get transfers from time to time too, but not to the extent that privates do. I guess I just accept this as it is, but do not try to say that it is not an advantage to have unlimited access to talent. More good players have an advantage over less good players every time. Somewhere on this forum there is a post that documents how other states handle this situation. You should read it. A lot of them apply some type of multiplier to the privates to try to even the playing field by having them move up in class despite having a lower enrollment. In others states they simply do not compete against each other. I think there are 8 privates in North Dakota now and it might be useful to take a look at getting them all into class A or at least apply a multiplier. I think another advantage they have over rural publics is in retaining a quality coaching staff. If you are a young, talented coach fresh out of college seeking a basketball coaching position would you rather coach in a city where there is entertainment and restaurants or in a community that has much less to offer.

Their advantage has not one thing to do with with getting transfers from across town. Those kids would still have to sit out the 180 days just like if they went from one public to another. Shiloh has been the only private to be getting any amount of transfers really, and theirs aren't coming from Bismarck schools.

I'll give you the coaches point. Naturally, most people would rather live in, say, Bismarck than live in or commute daily to Steele.
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby uspsrt » Sat Apr 04, 2015 3:23 pm

Private schools by definition accept students from anywhere in or outside the state, while public schools are pretty much restricted by school district boundaries. At least that is my understanding. I'm not affiliated with any school and don't pretend to fully understand the open enrollment guidelines, but if you feel that being a Private does not give you an advantage in athletics please explain why other states have taken the steps that they have to address the issue.
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby Indy5 » Sun Apr 05, 2015 9:58 am

uspsrt wrote:Private schools by definition accept students from anywhere in or outside the state, while public schools are pretty much restricted by school district boundaries. At least that is my understanding. I'm not affiliated with any school and don't pretend to fully understand the open enrollment guidelines, but if you feel that being a Private does not give you an advantage in athletics please explain why other states have taken the steps that they have to address the issue.

Other states' private schools are much different from ours. A lot of this is because they are in real cities. A lot of them that aren't a part of the high school activities associations are the ones you see on ESPN that are "prep academies" or something like that. Point is those schools actually openly recruit all of their players. The ones in our state operate, for the most part, operate like a public high school. In other states, they operate like a private institution.
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby classB4ever » Mon Apr 06, 2015 10:33 am

Indy5 wrote:
uspsrt wrote:
baloncesto wrote:Since when does being from a private school automatically make you a better player or a better team? Some people act like that this is an automatic advantage over everyone else and they discredit the hard work the kids put in. I understand they have a better opportunity to bring in transfers because of big schools being in the same town but at the end of the day its still 9-12 graders against 9-12 graders and its still schools with similar enrollment numbers playing against each other.


You just answered your own question. Privates are not restricted by district boundaries and have an opportunity to accept transfers from anywhere. Of course other schools get transfers from time to time too, but not to the extent that privates do. I guess I just accept this as it is, but do not try to say that it is not an advantage to have unlimited access to talent. More good players have an advantage over less good players every time. Somewhere on this forum there is a post that documents how other states handle this situation. You should read it. A lot of them apply some type of multiplier to the privates to try to even the playing field by having them move up in class despite having a lower enrollment. In others states they simply do not compete against each other. I think there are 8 privates in North Dakota now and it might be useful to take a look at getting them all into class A or at least apply a multiplier. I think another advantage they have over rural publics is in retaining a quality coaching staff. If you are a young, talented coach fresh out of college seeking a basketball coaching position would you rather coach in a city where there is entertainment and restaurants or in a community that has much less to offer.

Their advantage has not one thing to do with with getting transfers from across town. Those kids would still have to sit out the 180 days just like if they went from one public to another. Shiloh has been the only private to be getting any amount of transfers really, and theirs aren't coming from Bismarck schools.

I'll give you the coaches point. Naturally, most people would rather live in, say, Bismarck than live in or commute daily to Steele.


IMHO, "transfers" probably happen at an equal rate in all schools in ND. I would venture to say nearly all programs in ND have had transfers in the last 2 decades, whether it's small schools, big schools or private/parochial. Many times they transfer to become part of winning programs. It becomes more noticeable in the winning programs because they are seen on a bigger stage.

The real advantage of schools located in the big towns (and towns located near) is at the elementary level. A number of schools have campuses located in various locations throughout these large towns. This gives them the ability to have a much larger reach for students. I also believe private/parochial schools recruit at this age. Why? Because that's what you do to sustain your school enrollment. Personally, I share in their beliefs and the way they teach their students and if I were to live in a large town my children would have attended one of these schools if accepted.

IMO, it is not difficult to see talent at this early age and build very strong athletic programs year in and year out because of the ability to reach out and acquire students from throughout these larger towns. With the tournaments these young kids are afforded in today's world, along with genetics, talent is very easy to spot.

With that said, I don't think these smaller private/parochial schools should automatically be thrown into the top class if changes are made. I do think a multiplier should be used though. The advantages noted above are real and do make a big difference.
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby winner-within » Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:33 pm

why would a St. Marys beat a Shiloh? or lets say a Shanley beat an Oak Grove?...because of a few more students?....Let say the older Kretchman played for Shanley instead of Davies the year his younger Brother played with Grove...does that make Shanley more of a force?...of course.... and thats just one player, If your in a situation as a School in a big city where there might just be a Stud or two standing on the front step Monday morning, well than your in a unique situation that many Class b's are not...and to say nearly every school has had a transfer in the last 2 decades....I would say many many havent

and I'm using names as an example...no disrespect to anyone.... :)
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby classB4ever » Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:30 pm

winner-within wrote:why would a St. Marys beat a Shiloh? or lets say a Shanley beat an Oak Grove?...because of a few more students?....)


I would say because of 2 - 3 times more "like" athletes in each case.

winner-within wrote:...and to say nearly every school has had a transfer in the last 2 decades....I would say many many havent


You are probably correct. Although if you look back over 20 years, most schools have had families move in that have helped with their athletic programs. But agreed, not necessarily moved in for "athletic" reasons.

Here's a different twist to discuss:

Still don't like the idea of expanding Class A. IMO, just moving problems from bottom to top. Class A seems happy with their tournament so will leave it alone. Still think it would be possible to have 3 classes during the year in an AA, A & B system. Combine the latter into one state tournament format as has been discussed. To keep it fairly proportional, could go with 3 regions in A (10:1) and 4 regions in B (19:1). To round out the 4th spot in the A division, you could have 2 at large bids play off the night after region championships to claim 4th spot. At large based on RPI or voted. Basically, 2 best teams that didn't win their regional championships get another chance.
AA - 18 teams - 2 regions - West and East
A - 32 teams - 3 regions - West, Central, East. After Regionals, 2 at large teams play in for last spot.
B - 76 teams - 4 regions - NW, SW, NE, SE
classB4ever
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby winner-within » Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:51 pm

with all do respect your plan is way to busy for me and with one year of Super Region under my belt I bock a bit more at the travel I once thought wouldn't be a major deal.....but with the privates they are already in the city and with more one or maybe 2 sport focused athletes in the big big A schools then they would be fine I believe and fit in well....look at it like this Belcourt hasn't won a Class A tourn ever and Valley City since 1960... and since 1970 even Mary has won 2 and Shanley a few with Williston one then in the last 10 years its been a different one each year....I just think they would fit in fine and in due time (short) compete with the rest because there would be more opportunity for a Player to attend a private right in their home City...
If you can’t excel with talent, triumph with effort.
winner-within
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