Team reclassification?

[2livecrew]

HCV is appealing to NDHSAA to move their girls basketball team from Class A to Class B for next year.
Thoughts? Have other struggling teams done this? Or do you think it's something we'll see more of?

Obviously when the 3-class system was being debated, one side of the argument was that such a move wouldn't be good for every single school/team. So I'm just curious if this is going to set a precedent that if a team is struggling, they'll try to move? Or even the other way: if a team is doing well, they'll move up?

I'm not as familiar with all the details of the meetings and discussions. But surely this had to come up at some point when debating the 3-class system? Just looking for some insight.

[WalkingStick]

Link on NDHSAA website
https://d2q0tptsfejku7.cloudfront.net/u ... 202023.pdf

[2livecrew]

Thank you! I’m a little late to the party and was unsure of many of the details!

[Flip]

Let's say HCV girls are allowed in B do they have to appeal every year to stay in B? How would they get bumped back to the middle?

[BasketballMind]

Let's say HCV girls are allowed in B do they have to appeal every year to stay in B? How would they get bumped back to the middle?

If I had to guess that was considered "TBD" at this time a year ago. I would guess you need at least two years as a sample size to see how the programs are doing that opt down.

Other question, if a school is smaller, but has a strong program year over year are they going to be asked to move up? Will a "success factor" similar to football be put in place?

[Flip]

Other question, if a school is smaller, but has a strong program year over year are they going to be asked to move up? Will a "success factor" similar to football be put in place?

It is in the link above.

3. The tournament performance factor will be calculated after each season.
a. The tournament performance factor will be a three-year cumulative total of no less than six
points per division.
a. Teams that have accumulated at least six tournament performance factor points will be
promoted to the next highest division from the previous year. No team will be moved more
than one division per year. Teams may appeal this move to the classification committee.
b. Teams promoted to the next highest division due to accumulation of tournament performance
points will remain in that division indefinitely unless an appeal is granted by the classification
committee.
c. When a new coop forms, the coop will receive a point total equal to the combined total of all
schools in the coop.
d. Calculating the tournament performance factor:
i. Points will be cumulative for a three-year period. (The inaugural point total will be
calculated beginning with the 2021-22 school year)
ii. The maximum points a team can earn in a given season is four (4) points.
iii. Points will be awarded based on the following system:
1 point for advancing to the state quarterfinal
2 points for advancing to the state semifinal
3 points for advancing to the state championship
4 points for winning a state title

[RiverMiner99]

So if Thompson makes it to the championship game, which is very likely, they will be moved up to AA next year?

[packers21]

So if Thompson makes it to the championship game, which is very likely, they will be moved up to AA next year?

No

[packers21]

So if Thompson makes it to the championship game, which is very likely, they will be moved up to AA next year?

No

[RiverMiner99]

So if Thompson makes it to the championship game, which is very likely, they will be moved up to AA next year?

No

Would they have 6 points in the last 3 years if they did make it to the championship this year? 3 points for making championship in 2023 and then another 3 points for making the championship in 2024?

[Flip]

They could always appeal to be moved down.

[RiverMiner99]

They could always appeal to be moved down.

So then they would be moved up next year if they make the championship game this year? Obviously depending on if they were to appeal, that appeal being denied. I don't see how their appeal would be accepted. If it were to be accepted why even have it in place.

This being said. I do not like moving teams up based on success. Often times the kids that create the success graduate and leave the kids with less talent that are returning to be forced up. In Thompson case, most of their talent is sophomores. If they were to appeal and be granted a stay in Class A what would be to purpose of even having the success factors in place.

[Flip]

So then they would be moved up next year if they make the championship game this year? Obviously depending on if they were to appeal, that appeal being denied. I don't see how their appeal would be accepted. If it were to be accepted why even have it in place.

This being said. I do not like moving teams up based on success. Often times the kids that create the success graduate and leave the kids with less talent that are returning to be forced up. In Thompson case, most of their talent is sophomores. If they were to appeal and be granted a stay in Class A what would be to purpose of even having the success factors in place.

I don't know this for sure, but I think last year's points wouldn't be counted towards their total because they came in the B state tournament.

As far as a potential appeal. A good argument for them staying in the middle is they are one of the smallest schools in the middle.

[RiverMiner99]

So then they would be moved up next year if they make the championship game this year? Obviously depending on if they were to appeal, that appeal being denied. I don't see how their appeal would be accepted. If it were to be accepted why even have it in place.

This being said. I do not like moving teams up based on success. Often times the kids that create the success graduate and leave the kids with less talent that are returning to be forced up. In Thompson case, most of their talent is sophomores. If they were to appeal and be granted a stay in Class A what would be to purpose of even having the success factors in place.

I don't know this for sure, but I think last year's points wouldn't be counted towards their total because they came in the B state tournament.

As far as a potential appeal. A good argument for them staying in the middle is they are one of the smallest schools in the middle.

The link above says that the inaugural point total will be calculated beginning with the 2021-22 school year.

I agree they have a good reason to stay Class A, and that reason is their enrollment. However, if you are going to have move ups based on success points they will be moved up. It will be interesting to watch how this plays out if Thompson does indeed get to the championship game this year. If they don't they likely will make the state tournament next year and then be moved up for the 2025-26 school year. That would be the year after their top players graduate.

[WalkingStick]

"The tournament performance factor will be a three-year cumulative total of no less than six points per division"

Key statement being overlooked.

Thompson was Class B for 2021-2022, 2022-2023 seasons therefore their success points will not be used in addition to the 2023-2024 season as they are in a different division. Their Success points start now for their new division (Class A).

[bk1990]

"The tournament performance factor will be a three-year cumulative total of no less than six points per division"

Key statement being overlooked.

Thompson was Class B for 2021-2022, 2022-2023 seasons therefore their success points will not be used in addition to the 2023-2024 season as they are in a different division. Their Success points start now for their new division (Class A).

They guidelines detailed earlier don't say points start over due to start of 3 class, it just says starts from 21-22 season. I'm not a lawyer, but I would be led to believe the class you were and are now in doesn't matter. I wonder if this is a sneaky way of targeting a couple of the private schools, they have made state tourneys the last few years, with the new diluted 3 class, they make it again now they have to bump up. Why does it matter what current division someone is in? They say it goes back to 21-22, there were only 2 divisions

[TommiesFan]

"The tournament performance factor will be a three-year cumulative total of no less than six points per division"

Key statement being overlooked.

Thompson was Class B for 2021-2022, 2022-2023 seasons therefore their success points will not be used in addition to the 2023-2024 season as they are in a different division. Their Success points start now for their new division (Class A).

They guidelines detailed earlier don't say points start over due to start of 3 class, it just says starts from 21-22 season. I'm not a lawyer, but I would be led to believe the class you were and are now in doesn't matter. I wonder if this is a sneaky way of targeting a couple of the private schools, they have made state tourneys the last few years, with the new diluted 3 class, they make it again now they have to bump up. Why does it matter what current division someone is in? They say it goes back to 21-22, there were only 2 divisions

I believe the success points would start over for any team that got moved "up" a Division, which would include Thompson. Teams that stayed in their current division would have their success points counted since 2021/22.

And, I also have been told that it would be doubtful for a former Class B team (Thompson) to be moved up two divisions. Instead, this performance factor was designed for teams like Langdon (girls), Devils Lake (boys), etc, who DIDN'T get moved up, and might see continued success in their current division, and would thus be bumped up. For example, Langdon girls may move from "B" to "A", and Devils Lake boys may potentially move from "A" to "AA". But, to move a former Class B team (Thompson girls) to AA would likely not happen. I'm obviously biased, but Thompson with their 165 or 170 enrollment moving up to play the Fargos and Bismarcks of the State doesn't seem to pencil out. They already are in a division with schools up to 650 enrollment.

Either way, will be interesting to see how HCV girls' petition is handled. Definitely have struggled for the past several years, and you would think their situation is what the appeal process is designed to help.

Tommies Fan

[bk1990]

"The tournament performance factor will be a three-year cumulative total of no less than six points per division"

Key statement being overlooked.

Thompson was Class B for 2021-2022, 2022-2023 seasons therefore their success points will not be used in addition to the 2023-2024 season as they are in a different division. Their Success points start now for their new division (Class A).

They guidelines detailed earlier don't say points start over due to start of 3 class, it just says starts from 21-22 season. I'm not a lawyer, but I would be led to believe the class you were and are now in doesn't matter. I wonder if this is a sneaky way of targeting a couple of the private schools, they have made state tourneys the last few years, with the new diluted 3 class, they make it again now they have to bump up. Why does it matter what current division someone is in? They say it goes back to 21-22, there were only 2 divisions

I believe the success points would start over for any team that got moved "up" a Division, which would include Thompson. Teams that stayed in their current division would have their success points counted since 2021/22.

And, I also have been told that it would be doubtful for a former Class B team (Thompson) to be moved up two divisions. Instead, this performance factor was designed for teams like Langdon (girls), Devils Lake (boys), etc, who DIDN'T get moved up, and might see continued success in their current division, and would thus be bumped up. For example, Langdon girls may move from "B" to "A", and Devils Lake boys may potentially move from "A" to "AA". But, to move a former Class B team (Thompson girls) to AA would likely not happen. I'm obviously biased, but Thompson with their 165 or 170 enrollment moving up to play the Fargos and Bismarcks of the State doesn't seem to pencil out. They already are in a division with schools up to 650 enrollment.

Either way, will be interesting to see how HCV girls' petition is handled. Definitely have struggled for the past several years, and you would think their situation is what the appeal process is designed to help.

Tommies Fan

That is the problem with the new guidelines. Did Thompson get moved up? All that really changed was the letter of the division they play in now. They don't have to play some smaller schools, and have some new schools in the new A from the old A.
If Devils Lake is successful the next few years and get moved up, now they are in AA and right back where they started and nothing has changed, back to the old problems

[packers21]

"The tournament performance factor will be a three-year cumulative total of no less than six points per division"

Key statement being overlooked.

Thompson was Class B for 2021-2022, 2022-2023 seasons therefore their success points will not be used in addition to the 2023-2024 season as they are in a different division. Their Success points start now for their new division (Class A).

They guidelines detailed earlier don't say points start over due to start of 3 class, it just says starts from 21-22 season. I'm not a lawyer, but I would be led to believe the class you were and are now in doesn't matter. I wonder if this is a sneaky way of targeting a couple of the private schools, they have made state tourneys the last few years, with the new diluted 3 class, they make it again now they have to bump up. Why does it matter what current division someone is in? They say it goes back to 21-22, there were only 2 divisions

I believe the success points would start over for any team that got moved "up" a Division, which would include Thompson. Teams that stayed in their current division would have their success points counted since 2021/22.

And, I also have been told that it would be doubtful for a former Class B team (Thompson) to be moved up two divisions. Instead, this performance factor was designed for teams like Langdon (girls), Devils Lake (boys), etc, who DIDN'T get moved up, and might see continued success in their current division, and would thus be bumped up. For example, Langdon girls may move from "B" to "A", and Devils Lake boys may potentially move from "A" to "AA". But, to move a former Class B team (Thompson girls) to AA would likely not happen. I'm obviously biased, but Thompson with their 165 or 170 enrollment moving up to play the Fargos and Bismarcks of the State doesn't seem to pencil out. They already are in a division with schools up to 650 enrollment.

Either way, will be interesting to see how HCV girls' petition is handled. Definitely have struggled for the past several years, and you would think their situation is what the appeal process is designed to help.

Tommies Fan

That is the problem with the new guidelines. Did Thompson get moved up? All that really changed was the letter of the division they play in now. They don't have to play some smaller schools, and have some new schools in the new A from the old A.
If Devils Lake is successful the next few years and get moved up, now they are in AA and right back where they started and nothing has changed, back to the old problems

That’s bc they never really fixed the problems in the first place buddy, ur “old problems” were just given to new teams. DL should be in the highest division.

[bk1990]

"The tournament performance factor will be a three-year cumulative total of no less than six points per division"

Key statement being overlooked.

Thompson was Class B for 2021-2022, 2022-2023 seasons therefore their success points will not be used in addition to the 2023-2024 season as they are in a different division. Their Success points start now for their new division (Class A).

They guidelines detailed earlier don't say points start over due to start of 3 class, it just says starts from 21-22 season. I'm not a lawyer, but I would be led to believe the class you were and are now in doesn't matter. I wonder if this is a sneaky way of targeting a couple of the private schools, they have made state tourneys the last few years, with the new diluted 3 class, they make it again now they have to bump up. Why does it matter what current division someone is in? They say it goes back to 21-22, there were only 2 divisions

I believe the success points would start over for any team that got moved "up" a Division, which would include Thompson. Teams that stayed in their current division would have their success points counted since 2021/22.

And, I also have been told that it would be doubtful for a former Class B team (Thompson) to be moved up two divisions. Instead, this performance factor was designed for teams like Langdon (girls), Devils Lake (boys), etc, who DIDN'T get moved up, and might see continued success in their current division, and would thus be bumped up. For example, Langdon girls may move from "B" to "A", and Devils Lake boys may potentially move from "A" to "AA". But, to move a former Class B team (Thompson girls) to AA would likely not happen. I'm obviously biased, but Thompson with their 165 or 170 enrollment moving up to play the Fargos and Bismarcks of the State doesn't seem to pencil out. They already are in a division with schools up to 650 enrollment.

Either way, will be interesting to see how HCV girls' petition is handled. Definitely have struggled for the past several years, and you would think their situation is what the appeal process is designed to help.

Tommies Fan

That is the problem with the new guidelines. Did Thompson get moved up? All that really changed was the letter of the division they play in now. They don't have to play some smaller schools, and have some new schools in the new A from the old A.
If Devils Lake is successful the next few years and get moved up, now they are in AA and right back where they started and nothing has changed, back to the old problems

That’s bc they never really fixed the problems in the first place buddy, ur “old problems” were just given to new teams. DL should be in the highest division.

EXACTLY. As have said many times before, I do believe the 3 class system was needed, but they rushed it and it was mostly self serving and not well thought out.

3. The tournament performance factor will be calculated after each season.
a. The tournament performance factor will be a three-year cumulative total of no less than six
points per division.
a. Teams that have accumulated at least six tournament performance factor points will be
promoted to the next highest division from the previous year. No team will be moved more
than one division per year. Teams may appeal this move to the classification committee.
b. Teams promoted to the next highest division due to accumulation of tournament performance
points will remain in that division indefinitely unless an appeal is granted by the classification
committee.
c. When a new coop forms, the coop will receive a point total equal to the combined total of all
schools in the coop.
d. Calculating the tournament performance factor:
i. Points will be cumulative for a three-year period. (The inaugural point total will be
calculated beginning with the 2021-22 school year)
ii. The maximum points a team can earn in a given season is four (4) points.
iii. Points will be awarded based on the following system:
1 point for advancing to the state quarterfinal
2 points for advancing to the state semifinal
3 points for advancing to the state championship
4 points for winning a state title

Nowhere does this say points start over because of the new 3 class system. If that was the intent to wipe the slate clean for a team now in A that was in B such as Thompson, why didn't they say the point accumulation starts with the 2023-24 season? That is when the realignment started and everyone gets a fresh start. I believe it is their way to make some people happy now, the schools that got moved down, but keep the points from previous state tourneys with the hope they can still move some teams up in the next year or two.

[BasketballMind]

It's hard enough for girls basketball coaches to compete with the poison that is JO volleyball and the popularity of softball for participation. There's no guarantee it would go up if a team like HCV moved down and were able to get back to .500 or a little better. It's a problem no matter the state of your program. You can bet that if teams out of their league in this new class aren't able to move down those numbers are going to get worse.

Question: Why are teams forced to show their last ten seasons records all the way down to JH? It should be looked at the same way they do success factor in football. The non-success factor shouldn't have anything to do with stuff from 8-10 years ago. It should be in a 3-4 year look. They're quick to want to move a team up (Cavalier football for example) but it's painful for a team to move down. Doesn't make sense.

[Flip]

They allowed Cavalier to move back to 9 man easily.

[ndlionsfan]

This will be interesting to see how this pans out. I know HCV was against the three class system and knew their girls would struggle in it. But does the NDHSAA allow opt downs this soon into the change? What about Watford boys? Just won their first game in over a calendar year against a small Class B school. What stops them from moving all the way down to B if HCV is granted it?

Nice thing about the 3 class is that you can schedule who you want in the regular season. HCV has the option to schedule those Class B schools it can compete against and possibly get some wins, but still is probably going to struggle in the postseason for a while. I know there's a lot more to it than just that, but this decision looms big for our current system.

[ndlionsfan]

Also see that FWM girls, Carrington boys, and GF Central girls also submitted reclassification requests for the next meeting.

[bk1990]

Also see that FWM girls, Carrington boys, and GF Central girls also submitted reclassification requests for the next meeting.

I know what I say won't popular, but I will say it anyway. I don't fully understand how a school can have boys and girls teams in the different divisions. I understand if one of the teams co-ops and the other doesn't, but just because the team itself isn't successful? Not to be harsh, but deal with it. Don't know much about Carrington other than they have always had a successful wrestling program, so trying to field a basketball team at the same time, it may be a numbers issues as more boys go out for wrestling. But the size of the school didn't change. As far as girls basketball teams moving down, I know girls wrestling is gaining in popularity, but is it affecting participation in basketball, or do they want to move down due to not being successful?
I know people love to slam the fact that Bishop Ryan is still in B, but they also have a wrestling program, so two sports with 94 (?) students - boys and girls in high school. Show me another school with enrollment that size with both programs.
I just have a hard time with schools wanting to opt down just because they aren't winning, especially when the team of the other gender is successful at the school, change your culture and do something to increase participation, or just accept it your teams may not win all the time,