Team reclassification?

[maddog1971]

Spoke with one of my customers in another state and he has kids (lots) and we spoke about the problems we have in this state.... They have 10 time the schools we do but he laughed at the thought that Privates and Public schools play each other. He said he has never even heard of something like that before. In his state they have a few levels of private schools and the high end privates don't even play that many teams in the state... they travel to other states to play all the time.

[packers21]

All schools trying to opt down were rejected yesterday. The only ones with a shot were Carrington boys and HVC girls IMO.

[bk1990]

Spoke with one of my customers in another state and he has kids (lots) and we spoke about the problems we have in this state.... They have 10 time the schools we do but he laughed at the thought that Privates and Public schools play each other. He said he has never even heard of something like that before. In his state they have a few levels of private schools and the high end privates don't even play that many teams in the state... they travel to other states to play all the time.

Seems to only be a problem for those who have it in for parochial schools. Would like to know which state it is, with 10 times as many schools, that would put them at 80 private schools, ND has 8. Its a bit easier to have multiple divisions for them, AA in ND has 18, A has 29? If the high end privates are playing out of state, are they parochial or academy's? I don't think you are comparing apples to apples. Some of those national schools that travel are basically prep schools with high end boosters and sponsors, they students main purpose it not education but to move on to college sports.
What are the parochial's in ND supposed to do, only play each other 3 times a year then have a state tourney among themselves?

[Thundersnow]

I think it's the right decision to reject all reclassification requests this year. I don't blame the programs for asking, as we are in uncharted territory right now. If GF Central or Hillsboro girls have another down year, I wouldn't have a problem with them playing down a level for 2 years and re-evaluating at that point.

This "private schools and public schools shouldn't play against each other" idea is complete nonsense. If you think Trinity Christian should be playing against Shanley and St. Mary's instead of against Ray and Alexander, I can't take anything you say seriously. Everyone acknowledges that the private schools have some inherent advantages, but here's the deal: some public schools have inherent advantages as well. The new 3-class system isn't completely perfect or fair, but it is night and day better than the last 25 years of the 2-class system.

[WalkingStick]

Spoke with one of my customers in another state and he has kids (lots) and we spoke about the problems we have in this state.... They have 10 time the schools we do but he laughed at the thought that Privates and Public schools play each other. He said he has never even heard of something like that before. In his state they have a few levels of private schools and the high end privates don't even play that many teams in the state... they travel to other states to play all the time.

So it’s a large state that has an abundance of schools…10 times the schools in ND is about 1200 schools

ND has 8 (about to be 9 in 5-years) private schools out of 120 schools.

[packers21]

I think it's the right decision to reject all reclassification requests this year. I don't blame the programs for asking, as we are in uncharted territory right now. If GF Central or Hillsboro girls have another down year, I wouldn't have a problem with them playing down a level for 2 years and re-evaluating at that point.

This "private schools and public schools shouldn't play against each other" idea is complete nonsense. If you think Trinity Christian should be playing against Shanley and St. Mary's instead of against Ray and Alexander, I can't take anything you say seriously. Everyone acknowledges that the private schools have some inherent advantages, but here's the deal: some public schools have inherent advantages as well. The new 3-class system isn't completely perfect or fair, but it is night and day better than the last 25 years of the 2-class system.

Better than maybe the last 2 years, def not 25. Not much difference between TC (who is the outlier in privates, most ppl dont even know they exist) playing Shanley than Carrington playing Belcourt or DL.

[RiverMiner99]

Teams should never be moved down (or up). AD's know if they have good teams or bad teams. Schedule down if you know you will not compete.

Obviously, the privates don't have enough schools in ND to have their own division. I think it would be nice if they understood that and maybe didn't threaten lawsuits.

[Flying Wallenda]

Teams should never be moved down (or up). AD's know if they have good teams or bad teams. Schedule down if you know you will not compete.

Obviously, the privates don't have enough schools in ND to have their own division. I think it would be nice if they understood that and maybe didn't threaten lawsuits.

How many private schools in ND? I believe I read 8?

Division A football played with 10 schools for a number of years.

Play each other twice for 14 games. Schedule local games for your other 7. Season's done, everyone plays in the private school state tournament. Now we get 4 state tournaments instead of 3. A huge goal of going to 3 classes of basketball according to the presenting committee was giving more kids a chance at playing in a state tournament. Mission accomplished.

[maddog1971]

Privates have to play somebody because there is not enough private schools in our state so WE have it right that a 3rd division was started. The problem is with one Private getting put in Class B. I have no problem with the system right now except for the travel time. I like some schools are doing the double header, boys and girls. Nobody needs to be put down because of their success... wait a few years.. programs rebound...

[bk1990]

Privates have to play somebody because there is not enough private schools in our state so WE have it right that a 3rd division was started. The problem is with one Private getting put in Class B. I have no problem with the system right now except for the travel time. I like some schools are doing the double header, boys and girls. Nobody needs to be put down because of their success... wait a few years.. programs rebound...

There are 3 privates (parochial) schools in B, Ryan, Our Redeemers and Trinity Christian. Whether you like it or not, the 3 class system the way it was set up, determined they belong in B. That is even with what I would consider an unfair way to move them up (over 100 students but in an A town, move up a division) and the same to bump schools up to AA.
My wish is Shiloh and Trinity make state in A, Ryan makes state in B. Would love to see them win it all, however, might be worth it to just not get quite enough points that they don't have to move up after 3 years though. I want to see heads explode
I also think it would be fitting if Valley City, Wahpeton, Watford and Turtle Mountain (nothing personal against these towns or kids) do not make it to state, so much for bumping the enrollment for A. Those backroom deals and self serving interests would have been for nothing.
As I have said before, I know my opinions are not popular and I'm sure I will get attacked by some people on this forum, but I really don't care.

[WalkingStick]

Privates have to play somebody because there is not enough private schools in our state so WE have it right that a 3rd division was started. The problem is with one Private getting put in Class B. I have no problem with the system right now except for the travel time. I like some schools are doing the double header, boys and girls. Nobody needs to be put down because of their success... wait a few years.. programs rebound...

We know it's Bishop Ryan you hate and want in Class A...even though their enrollment squarely places them in B.

Side Note: the way Kindred's boys are set up for the next few years they could have the success points to move them to AA for 2025-2026...but I do think they could compete well with many of the bottom rung of AA schools right now (Horace, Shanley, St. Mary's, Williston).

[bk1990]

Privates have to play somebody because there is not enough private schools in our state so WE have it right that a 3rd division was started. The problem is with one Private getting put in Class B. I have no problem with the system right now except for the travel time. I like some schools are doing the double header, boys and girls. Nobody needs to be put down because of their success... wait a few years.. programs rebound...

We know it's Bishop Ryan you hate and want in Class A...even though their enrollment squarely places them in B.

Side Note: the way Kindred's boys are set up for the next few years they could have the success points to move them to AA for 2025-2026...but I do think they could compete well with many of the bottom rung of AA schools right now (Horace, Shanley, St. Mary's, Williston).

Honestly, I think Kindred would give the upper level AA schools a run, if not beat most of them. They just have wealth of talent right now. But what about when their junior class graduates? Not sure how strong the younger classes are, now they could be "punished" because of a good upper class.
Also, Devils Lake would only have to get to the championship the next two years and would be moved up, they are in "A" now, as they were "A" in the two class system. Same thing also, good junior class. When they leave, is the cupboard bare? Now the sophomores now struggle with the move to AA?

[maddog1971]

Well Kindred has been really good for about 5 years right now. This years Junior Class is loaded with great talent on the football field and Basketball field in boys but girls not so much. Struggled to compete in volleyball and basketball but they are playing right where they belong. Yes after next year, when this years Juniors are gone, Kindred will be in the middle of the pack in everything. That does not mean in a few years one of younger classes wont be loaded. Grade school is over flowing right now.
As far as reclassification.... If the Privates can not compete for 10 years .. let them move down.... but to threaten with law suits because you want to stay playing small class b schools is shameful.
Remember being competitive is winning at or near .500 and finishing in the top 4 of your region. Not winning the region each year and having 3 losses.

[Flying Wallenda]

Privates have to play somebody because there is not enough private schools in our state so WE have it right that a 3rd division was started. The problem is with one Private getting put in Class B. I have no problem with the system right now except for the travel time. I like some schools are doing the double header, boys and girls. Nobody needs to be put down because of their success... wait a few years.. programs rebound...

We know it's Bishop Ryan you hate and want in Class A...even though their enrollment squarely places them in B.

Side Note: the way Kindred's boys are set up for the next few years they could have the success points to move them to AA for 2025-2026...but I do think they could compete well with many of the bottom rung of AA schools right now (Horace, Shanley, St. Mary's, Williston).

Honestly, I think Kindred would give the upper level AA schools a run, if not beat most of them. They just have wealth of talent right now. But what about when their junior class graduates? Not sure how strong the younger classes are, now they could be "punished" because of a good upper class.
Also, Devils Lake would only have to get to the championship the next two years and would be moved up, they are in "A" now, as they were "A" in the two class system. Same thing also, good junior class. When they leave, is the cupboard bare? Now the sophomores now struggle with the move to AA?

Devils Lake (class A) slapped around Red River at RR, Red River BEAT Sheyenne this week, Four Winds beat Devils Lake, etc.....I think Kindred competes with any team regardless of class. Devils Lake as well.

[bk1990]

Well Kindred has been really good for about 5 years right now. This years Junior Class is loaded with great talent on the football field and Basketball field in boys but girls not so much. Struggled to compete in volleyball and basketball but they are playing right where they belong. Yes after next year, when this years Juniors are gone, Kindred will be in the middle of the pack in everything. That does not mean in a few years one of younger classes wont be loaded. Grade school is over flowing right now.
As far as reclassification.... If the Privates can not compete for 10 years .. let them move down.... but to threaten with law suits because you want to stay playing small class b schools is shameful.
Remember being competitive is winning at or near .500 and finishing in the top 4 of your region. Not winning the region each year and having 3 losses.

Probably shouldn't comment and keep poking the bear, but what else is there to do on a cold winter day.
"Being competitive is winning at or near .500 and finishing in the top 4 of your region?"
Sorry, I thought being competitive was striving to be the best all the time. If you are happy with being successful only half the time, that's your choice. Going to a parochial schools, the students are held to high standards, academically, morally and apparently athletically. NDHSAA says you have 2 F's you can't play sports, from what I have heard, parochial's say if you have 1 F grade, you can't play. Not saying kids in public schools don't strive to be successful, they do. But you seem to take it personal when "private" school kids have any measure of success.

[maddog1971]

Well Kindred has been really good for about 5 years right now. This years Junior Class is loaded with great talent on the football field and Basketball field in boys but girls not so much. Struggled to compete in volleyball and basketball but they are playing right where they belong. Yes after next year, when this years Juniors are gone, Kindred will be in the middle of the pack in everything. That does not mean in a few years one of younger classes wont be loaded. Grade school is over flowing right now.
As far as reclassification.... If the Privates can not compete for 10 years .. let them move down.... but to threaten with law suits because you want to stay playing small class b schools is shameful.
Remember being competitive is winning at or near .500 and finishing in the top 4 of your region. Not winning the region each year and having 3 losses.

Probably shouldn't comment and keep poking the bear, but what else is there to do on a cold winter day.
"Being competitive is winning at or near .500 and finishing in the top 4 of your region?"
Sorry, I thought being competitive was striving to be the best all the time. If you are happy with being successful only half the time, that's your choice. Going to a parochial schools, the students are held to high standards, academically, morally and apparently athletically. NDHSAA says you have 2 F's you can't play sports, from what I have heard, parochial's say if you have 1 F grade, you can't play. Not saying kids in public schools don't strive to be successful, they do. But you seem to take it personal when "private" school kids have any measure of success.

Zero problem with any Private school that compete at the level they should be playing. Hats off to DT, Oak Grove, Shiloh BUT privates complaining about not being fair makes me angry. Shanley has all my respect in the world. The compete at the level they know they can compete at. They might not win every year but they compete.

[WalkingStick]

Well Kindred has been really good for about 5 years right now. This years Junior Class is loaded with great talent on the football field and Basketball field in boys but girls not so much. Struggled to compete in volleyball and basketball but they are playing right where they belong. Yes after next year, when this years Juniors are gone, Kindred will be in the middle of the pack in everything. That does not mean in a few years one of younger classes wont be loaded. Grade school is over flowing right now.
As far as reclassification.... If the Privates can not compete for 10 years .. let them move down.... but to threaten with law suits because you want to stay playing small class b schools is shameful.
Remember being competitive is winning at or near .500 and finishing in the top 4 of your region. Not winning the region each year and having 3 losses.

Probably shouldn't comment and keep poking the bear, but what else is there to do on a cold winter day.
"Being competitive is winning at or near .500 and finishing in the top 4 of your region?"
Sorry, I thought being competitive was striving to be the best all the time. If you are happy with being successful only half the time, that's your choice. Going to a parochial schools, the students are held to high standards, academically, morally and apparently athletically. NDHSAA says you have 2 F's you can't play sports, from what I have heard, parochial's say if you have 1 F grade, you can't play. Not saying kids in public schools don't strive to be successful, they do. But you seem to take it personal when "private" school kids have any measure of success.

Zero problem with any Private school that compete at the level they should be playing. Hats off to DT, Oak Grove, Shiloh BUT privates complaining about not being fair makes me angry. Shanley has all my respect in the world. The compete at the level they know they can compete at. They might not win every year but they compete.

The measuring stick right now is enrollment and those private schools are WHERE THE NDHSAA PUT THEM...none of them were asking to be reclassified so they ARE COMPETING at the level they are at. We are 2.5 months into 3 classes and not a single one of them is complaining and asking to move down...four public schools requested (and were denied) moving down a classification but you point out the private schools ( )...par for the course

Oak Grove boys have 1 win but there aren't any complaints...they are just playing young (which they've done in the past in Class B and had marginal years; remember they were the 10-seed one year in R1).

Trinity Christian and their 60 students can not compete at the AA level...don't even start on that; their girls are 1-7 and scoring 27.0 ppg against NW ND Class B teams...You want them to score less than 10 points against the AA schools??

[WalkingStick]

I think it's the right decision to reject all reclassification requests this year. I don't blame the programs for asking, as we are in uncharted territory right now. If GF Central or Hillsboro girls have another down year, I wouldn't have a problem with them playing down a level for 2 years and re-evaluating at that point.

This "private schools and public schools shouldn't play against each other" idea is complete nonsense. If you think Trinity Christian should be playing against Shanley and St. Mary's instead of against Ray and Alexander, I can't take anything you say seriously. Everyone acknowledges that the private schools have some inherent advantages, but here's the deal: some public schools have inherent advantages as well. The new 3-class system isn't completely perfect or fair, but it is night and day better than the last 25 years of the 2-class system.

Better than maybe the last 2 years, def not 25. Not much difference between TC (who is the outlier in privates, most ppl dont even know they exist) playing Shanley than Carrington playing Belcourt or DL.

Just for quantitative arguments sake based of your post packers...we can all go at this until we are blue in the face but right now we are 2.5 months in and we'll see where this goes.

Shanley (356 students) is 7.5 times larger than Trinity Christian (47 students)
Belcourt-TMCHS (558 students) is 3.3 times larger than Carrington (168 students)
Numbers via the 3-class document on NDHSAA

[BasketballMind]

I didn't see the point in them making those schools drive out there to present. Felt like a formality to have the response that everyone was able to be heard.

[TommiesFan]

A few more thoughts on this reclassification process, after seeing the article in the GF Herald this week which included some comments from Patti Aanenson, the reclassification committee chair.

HCV girls' combined record the past 3 years is 5 wins and 50 losses, and keep in mind this was against Class B schools. Their appeal to move (basically stay) down to Class B was denied. Taken from the GF Herald, Patti Aanenson said, "The major component was we needed more data being as this is the first year of the three-class system. We wanted to give more time. It is not something we want to jump in to lightly, and we want to do diligence for those requesting changes and those affected by the changes."

A few thoughts on this:

1) The deadline to appeal to be reclassified for basketball is/was January 1st, and the decision was made on January 16th. Why wouldn't the NDHSAA set those dates at an April 1st deadline, April 15th meeting date, for example. This way all basketball state tournaments and seasons are complete, the full previous season could be included in the "evaluation", coaches are done coaching, and could take the time to put a presentation together, etc. Yes, the suggested April timeline tightens up the window for AD's to schedule the upcoming winter basketball season, but I'm guessing HCV's Athletic Director, for example, would gladly put in a little extra time rearranging his schedule, knowing his girls team would be playing at the appropriate level (Class B).

2) "Give more time, and not something they want to jump in lightly" is laughable coming from the NDSHAA Board, who ram-rodded this 3-class system down the throats of the schools and AD's across the state, implementing it this season instead of waiting until the 2024/25 season. Simply laughable.

3) The dangerous thing about denying HCV girls in this instance is the precedence that is set. If a team that is 5-50 in the past 3 years is DENIED an appeal to stay at that level (moving down from A to B in this case), what does a team have to do to prove worthiness of moving down? 4 wins in 3 years? 3 wins in 3 years? Could the committee not look at the previous 3 years of records, and winning an average of 1 game out of 11 and see that their program is struggling right now, even when competing at the Class B level, let alone what is happening since moving up to Class A?

Please keep in mind, I'm obviously from Thompson, and we are rivals with HCV, and I have no ties to them. I only use their girls as an example of a team that I know has struggled, and how I feel would definitely have fit the credentials of being approved to move down. I feel the timing of the NDHSAA's reclassification meeting is off by 3 months, and having a NDHSAA board member saying they want to "take their time" is quite hypocritical, considering the timeline they used in implementing the 3-class system for basketball.

Just some random thoughts on this. Enjoy the site as always.

[WalkingStick]

Just to clarify the past 3 seasons (what TommiesFan used for example) for all 4 schools + this year's record in their new class (as of 1/24)

Hillsboro-CV Girls (in Class B)
2022-2023: 5-18
2021-2022: 2-19
2020-2021: 1-19
TOTAL: 8-56
2023-2024: 5-10 (5-5 vs. B schools; 0-5 vs. A schools)

Four Winds-Minnewaukan Girls (in Class B)
2022-2023: 12-11
2021-2022: 22-1
2020-2021: 15-8
TOTAL: 49-20
2023-2024: 6-8

GF Central Girls (in original Class A)
2022-2023: 4-18
2021-2022: 0-22
2020-2021: 2-20
TOTAL: 6-60
2023-2024: 2-10

Carrington Boys (in Class B)
2022-2023: 13-10
2021-2022: 11-12
2020-2021: 7-14
TOTAL: 31-36
2023-2024: 1-10

[Flip]

I don't think you should wait until April to decide on the potential opt-downs. Most schools will have their schedule complete by that time. NDHSAA probably shouldn't have allowed any appeals for two years. None of those teams had a chance of winning their appeal.

[UncleRico]

In full disclosure, I've always thought the concept of moving classes due to success level is silly and counter-productive. In the majority of cases, kids who had nothing to do with the success that led to being bumped up are unfairly paying the price for something they weren't responsible for.

While i understand it is no fun to be at the bottom of the standings, the reality is someone is gonna be there. In the case of the HCV girls, if they were allowed to move down this year despite being easily in Class A enrollment-wise, what would happen if they have a couple really strong classes in 5 years and just beat the brakes off the Class B teams? How quickly would they be bumped back up? Would Class B teams have to endure the thumpings until the "points" needed were amassed, despite the fact they belong in Class A in the first place?

Another example I thought was silly was Cavalier in football. Sure, they won some games and made it to the playoffs this year. Does anyone actually think Cavalier doesn't belong playing 9 man football? it's not like they are on the outskirts of a major city. They are a true small town school.

Given the records posted for Four Winds girls, they should be embarrassed for applying and barred from applying anytime in the near future. That's ridiculous. Obviously there are sets of circumstances that are unique and merit special consideration, but in the vast majority of cases I feel like you should play where you're supposed to play by the rules that are in place. Just my .02.

[WalkingStick]

We know nothing of their participation numbers and upcoming class sizes which I'm sure played a role in the asking for all 4 schools. Participation numbers are down across ALOT of Girls basketball programs statewide...there's a topic on this blog that listed several schools with 10-15 girls playing right now (viewtopic.php?f=84&t=14005&start=75)

[TommiesFan]

Just to clarify the past 3 seasons (what TommiesFan used for example) for all 4 schools + this year's record in their new class (as of 1/24)

Hillsboro-CV Girls (in Class B)
2022-2023: 5-18
2021-2022: 2-19
2020-2021: 1-19
TOTAL: 8-56
2023-2024: 5-10 (5-5 vs. B schools; 0-5 vs. A schools)

Four Winds-Minnewaukan Girls (in Class B)
2022-2023: 12-11
2021-2022: 22-1
2020-2021: 15-8
TOTAL: 49-20
2023-2024: 6-8

GF Central Girls (in original Class A)
2022-2023: 4-18
2021-2022: 0-22
2020-2021: 2-20
TOTAL: 6-60
2023-2024: 2-10

Carrington Boys (in Class B)
2022-2023: 13-10
2021-2022: 11-12
2020-2021: 7-14
TOTAL: 31-36
2023-2024: 1-10

Thanks for the clarification on these records, Walking Stick. Appreciate it. With these records taken into consideration, GF Central and HCV girls would make the most compelling argument to move "down". I was shocked to see Four Winds girls petition down, especially considering at the time of them probably putting their presentation together they had played Thompson tough, and beat Northern Cass, who at the time was #2 in state, I believe? Anyway, that one shocked me.

I also agree that if it was a foregone conclusion that no teams were going to be approved to petition down this year because the NDHSAA hadn't seen enough of the 3-class system yet at this point, why even offer it for this year? Just so 4 teams' AD's and/or coaches put together a presentation, drive to Valley City, present to the Board, with it already having been decided nobody was going to be approved? As someone else mentioned, probably should have waited until Spring 2025 to start the reclassification option.

Finally, back to the timing of the meeting. I guess I am not privy to the timing of AD's writing their winter sports schedules, but in the rare cases of a team being granted a move down in divisions, I'm guessing their AD would be willing to work hard to rearrange things, as the chance of this happening would appear to be very isolated. But, again, no idea when these schedules are finalized.

Again, always entertaining site, appreciate everyone's participation.

Go Tommies