2009 State Girls B Basketball

Class B Girls
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Re: 2009 State Girls B Basketball

Postby baseball » Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:10 am

north_border_eagles2106 wrote:
senser wrote:I'm completely ignorant on the rules, but the first time I realized there was no shot clock was at the end of the game when the white team sat on the ball for a minute and then called the TO or whatever. Lame.

Thank you.


NBE....would you rather win a state title without a shot clock or not even make state with one? may not be the most exciting thing to watch but its all about strategy. you wanna speed the game up....step out and play defense. id be willing to bet that FLPR would have done the same thing if they had the ball. then again....they werent playing to win, they were only playin for OT.
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Re: 2009 State Girls B Basketball

Postby north_border_eagles2106 » Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:06 am

Baseball... I have gone into great detail about why I hate that class B can't have a shot clock because they're "too expensive" or how it would "ruin the game". Would it really ruin the game? People like watching class B because its fun and exciting, the fans are crazy and it's all about high school friends who grew up together playing in front of friends and family. Tell me how putting in a shot clock ruins that. If there is a 30 second shot clock and you have the ball with like 55 seconds left or however long it is you then have the advantage to go for a two-for-one. Try to take a shot with about 37 or so seconds left so if FLPR does score you get the ball back again. It teaches players how to play under pressure. I know plenty of class B players that have gone on to play college basketball and none of them complain because there is a shot clock. You're not teaching the kids how to play the game the right way when you can say "Ok guys, its under 90 seconds let's play keepaway".

I have also gone into detail about how I understand it's a rule and it's the "strategic" thing to do. That doesn't mean I have to like it. Jeez, Baseball maybe before you try to come on here and make it seem like you got me good you should go through and read my other posts. I understand the strategy when there is no shot clock, I just don't like it. There is that clear enough for you?
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Re: 2009 State Girls B Basketball

Postby bigpoppakdog » Tue Mar 10, 2009 8:13 am

Be carefull, baseball has been around along time. To me, nothing is broke, so it doesn't need fixing. Class B is exciting and you very rarely ever go to a game and are bored because of lack of shots. If it bothers you to see a team hold it for 60 seconds at the end of a half or the end of a game that's your right like you said. Now, let's talk about something else besides a shot clock. :D
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Re: 2009 State Girls B Basketball

Postby baseball » Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:06 am

north_border_eagles2106 wrote:Baseball... I have gone into great detail about why I hate that class B can't have a shot clock because they're "too expensive" or how it would "ruin the game". Would it really ruin the game? People like watching class B because its fun and exciting, the fans are crazy and it's all about high school friends who grew up together playing in front of friends and family. Tell me how putting in a shot clock ruins that. If there is a 30 second shot clock and you have the ball with like 55 seconds left or however long it is you then have the advantage to go for a two-for-one. Try to take a shot with about 37 or so seconds left so if FLPR does score you get the ball back again. It teaches players how to play under pressure. I know plenty of class B players that have gone on to play college basketball and none of them complain because there is a shot clock. You're not teaching the kids how to play the game the right way when you can say "Ok guys, its under 90 seconds let's play keepaway".

I have also gone into detail about how I understand it's a rule and it's the "strategic" thing to do. That doesn't mean I have to like it. Jeez, Baseball maybe before you try to come on here and make it seem like you got me good you should go through and read my other posts. I understand the strategy when there is no shot clock, I just don't like it. There is that clear enough for you?


didnt think i got you so good, just a question...that like other topics you give a nice long post that answers nothing. would you rather win a state title without one, or not even make state with one??
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Re: 2009 State Girls B Basketball

Postby GoodO'LBoy » Tue Mar 10, 2009 11:07 am

GoodO'LBoy wrote:
baseball wrote:
GoodO'LBoy wrote:
Bob Holiday wrote:When you're playing a basketball game in a state tournament, you play to win, not to please anyone's sense of whats right and what's wrong. The whining about KC holding the ball is pretty pathetic. If you don't like it I suggest you find yourself a different spectator sport.


First off, I would hardly consider any comments about KC holding the ball for 1:05 to end the game whinning. The game was awsome. In my opinion, it would have been a much more exciting ending if there was a shot clock. There could have been many more possible scenarios to play out at the end of the game. This is where good coaches would stand out.

If you don't like people discussing basketball strategy, I suggest you find a different website to comment on.


Sand's strategy....hold the ball for one shot, they executed, so they won state. had there been a shot clock he would have had a different stategy. The FLPR coach didnt even have a strategy at the end of the game. If i remember the quote it was "we were playing for OT, Benz had 4 fouls so we thought if we got it to OT it would be a different game." Sand had a plan to win in regulation, where his counterpart was just hoping.


So are you disagreeing with me that a shot clock would have added more excitement to the end of the game? At no time in any of my posts was I insulting a coach or speculating what a coaches game plan was. Read it again. I am sure that both of these coaches could handle an end game scenario with a shot clock. Otherwise they probably would not be playing in the state tittle game.


Baseball, you didn't answer my question.
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Re: 2009 State Girls B Basketball

Postby baseball » Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:11 pm

GoodO'LBoy wrote:
GoodO'LBoy wrote:
baseball wrote:
GoodO'LBoy wrote:
Bob Holiday wrote:When you're playing a basketball game in a state tournament, you play to win, not to please anyone's sense of whats right and what's wrong. The whining about KC holding the ball is pretty pathetic. If you don't like it I suggest you find yourself a different spectator sport.


First off, I would hardly consider any comments about KC holding the ball for 1:05 to end the game whinning. The game was awsome. In my opinion, it would have been a much more exciting ending if there was a shot clock. There could have been many more possible scenarios to play out at the end of the game. This is where good coaches would stand out.

If you don't like people discussing basketball strategy, I suggest you find a different website to comment on.


Sand's strategy....hold the ball for one shot, they executed, so they won state. had there been a shot clock he would have had a different stategy. The FLPR coach didnt even have a strategy at the end of the game. If i remember the quote it was "we were playing for OT, Benz had 4 fouls so we thought if we got it to OT it would be a different game." Sand had a plan to win in regulation, where his counterpart was just hoping.


So are you disagreeing with me that a shot clock would have added more excitement to the end of the game? At no time in any of my posts was I insulting a coach or speculating what a coaches game plan was. Read it again. I am sure that both of these coaches could handle an end game scenario with a shot clock. Otherwise they probably would not be playing in the state tittle game.


Baseball, you didn't answer my question.


oh, sorry i missed a post...i both agree and disagree with u. it would have added a little more excitement to the last minute, but pretty hard to top a buzzer beating shot to win the state title in terms of excitement to the end of a game. at no time in my post did i say you were insulting a coach or speculating, read it again...you said this was a website where people can discuss basketball strategy and thats what i did. I explained Sand's strategy along with the FLPR coach...or lack of strategy there.
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Re: 2009 State Girls B Basketball

Postby Bob Holiday » Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:32 pm

Good ol'boy your comments about what a good coach would have done are pretty low. Who qualifies as a good coach in your eyes. Would it be one who has taken four of his teams to state tournaments in his relatively short career. Sand has done that. How many would it take to qualify him as a good coach in your eyes.
I get what you were saying about stalling. But killing 65 seconds does not qualify as stalling in very many minds. But I think killing 65 seconds to win a game when your star player has four fouls is very good coaching no matter what you think
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Re: 2009 State Girls B Basketball

Postby north_border_eagles2106 » Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:50 pm

baseball wrote:
north_border_eagles2106 wrote:Baseball... I have gone into great detail about why I hate that class B can't have a shot clock because they're "too expensive" or how it would "ruin the game". Would it really ruin the game? People like watching class B because its fun and exciting, the fans are crazy and it's all about high school friends who grew up together playing in front of friends and family. Tell me how putting in a shot clock ruins that. If there is a 30 second shot clock and you have the ball with like 55 seconds left or however long it is you then have the advantage to go for a two-for-one. Try to take a shot with about 37 or so seconds left so if FLPR does score you get the ball back again. It teaches players how to play under pressure. I know plenty of class B players that have gone on to play college basketball and none of them complain because there is a shot clock. You're not teaching the kids how to play the game the right way when you can say "Ok guys, its under 90 seconds let's play keepaway".

I have also gone into detail about how I understand it's a rule and it's the "strategic" thing to do. That doesn't mean I have to like it. Jeez, Baseball maybe before you try to come on here and make it seem like you got me good you should go through and read my other posts. I understand the strategy when there is no shot clock, I just don't like it. There is that clear enough for you?


didnt think i got you so good, just a question...that like other topics you give a nice long post that answers nothing. would you rather win a state title without one, or not even make state with one??



Ok smartie of course if I had a choice to win state without one or not go with one you know what I would say. But that question and my answer has nothing to do with how I feel about a shot clock. If you're team is good enough to win state without a shot clock they should be good enough to GO to state with one. It woulnd't change the game that much but everyone is against it caues "class b is fine the way it is" or "if it ain't broke don't fix it" I'm tired of hearing that.

To whoever said class b isn't boring at all and you never see teams play and struggle for shots then you didn't see too many MPCG or Hillsboro games when the final scores were in the 30's. How is that fun to watch? It's fun to watch when they're close and I guess it's exciting because you don't know when the ball is ever going to go through the basket but its still boring. The thing that bothers me most about it is when those games are in the 30's its not because the players aren't capable of scoring points and they have to take that long to score they are just being instructed to only take lay-ups. That strategy is good and all but why limit your players ability when you know they could do so much more. I guess if you're getting wins it doesn't matter but for just the entertainment value which is what this post is all about, no one can deny that it's boring.

Lets look at 2 championship games in recent memory. 2005 New Rockford Sheyenne vs. Bottineau. Probably the best actual game in North Dakota state championship game history. It was double overtime, there were plenty of points scored and it ended on a buzzer beater. In 2006 May-Port CG plays Dickinson Trinity. I think total there were under 65 points scored in the whole game. It ended on a buzzer beater and had a great finish. Nobody watching that game thought much of it untill the last 2 minutes cause it was still close. I remember leaving midway through the third quarter just to walk around the arena in bismarck and coming back to ask if i missed anything, there had been 6 points scored in like 4 minutes of the game. The point is even though both these games ended on buzzer-beater shots and no one knew who was going to win untill there was under 1 second left, if you had a choice to watch one again we'd all pick the NR/S vs. Bottinaeu game.
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Re: 2009 State Girls B Basketball

Postby bigpoppakdog » Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:13 pm

The basic questions is still why the need for a shot clock? If it's personal preference, then you're argument is not valid. If it's due to too many games that are in the 30's because the team passes it around for so long nobody gets enough shot attempts then you have a valid argument. Problem is, I don't believe that is the case. Sure, you might find a game now and then in the 30's, but it's not due to a team being patient, but a team that can't score. I've watched two teams go at it for 4 quarters and the score ends up in the 50's. I look back at stats from my day and we were always in the 70's. Not because of a different style, but because two of us could score 45 points combined each game as could many teams. Now days you don't see that too often(TLM has that and they are often in the 70's). That game in the 50's was exciting from beginning to end. If there ever was a need for a shot clock, that would have been decades ago, when they ran a 4 corner offense for 4 quarters. When you look at girls(sorry not to be sexist), you could see that even the top teams have players than couldn't hit water if they fell out of a boat. A shot clock isn't going to fix that.
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Re: 2009 State Girls B Basketball

Postby baseball » Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:51 pm

you have to remember why that MPCG-Trinity game was in the 30's, they were far and away the 2 best defensive teams in the state. some people might even say that that game might have even been lower scoring with a shot clock. the players would have felt pressed and forced more things.

I also made an arguement last year that scoring is not the problem. i used the NDHSAA site last year, which was small in smaple size because not all B schools post stats. but alot of the ones that did averaged just as many, maybe a few less, points as Class A in shorter games. But when i transferred them from 32 minute games to 36 minute games almost all B teams had higher PPG then class A.

Another reason you dont need a shot clock, makes upsets more likely. if a lesser skilled team can control the tempo and limit the possessions of the team with superiour scorers why dont they deserve to win? How about the Steele-Dawson girls games against Ashley, Wing, and Kulm for the last 4-5 years?? when the final score is 86-9 and so on...i know there are more scores like this around the state but since Steele is the team I know yea..imagine them games with a shot clock. 115-12. the team from texas that won by 100 points, coach ended up getting fired, they forfeit the game for sportsmanship reason, all that good stuff. That's what would happen in Class B girls basketball when a team like Steele would play them type of teams.

As much as it would make close games more exciting it would make blow outs even worse because people will always them be blamed for running up the score when they were being forced to shoot. not because they want to...but because the rule says they have to in a short amount of time or its a turnover.
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Re: 2009 State Girls B Basketball

Postby bigpoppakdog » Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:14 pm

Great points baseball.
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Re: 2009 State Girls B Basketball

Postby baseball » Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:22 pm

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=290490356

just an interesting game that occured earlier this year.....Division 1 Men's basketball game with the winning team scoring 38 points and winning by 5...
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Re: 2009 State Girls B Basketball

Postby bballfan_05 » Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:03 pm

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the number of states that use a shot clock only around 10 or something like that?
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Re: 2009 State Girls B Basketball

Postby bigpoppakdog » Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:12 pm

Another place where they use a shot clock is the NBA. How many games have we seen in the 60's over the past few years? Quite a few. Shot clock doesn't make it a more exciting game.
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Re: 2009 State Girls B Basketball

Postby baseball » Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:19 pm

someone whose been around a while longer then me haha....why was the NBA so much higher scoring the in the 80s? better shooters or what? i supose everyone was money from 18 feet and in and then they put in a 3 point line and everyone wanted to shoot that...anyone with any insight?
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Re: 2009 State Girls B Basketball

Postby tingly » Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:03 pm

That Texas coach was fired because he publically disagreed with his administration's apology/forfeit.
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Re: 2009 State Girls B Basketball

Postby baseball » Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:46 pm

I was talking about the fallout of the game in general. do you want ND games to get national exposure for the margin of victory like that?? im a firm believer that no matter how much your winning by you never tell your kids to not play hard....so in a way i agree with him, why should he apologize for having the better team? now if he was pressing late i cn understand the anger. but the only reason i remembe is that they were "still shooting threes"...just like you cant tell your kids to not play hard, you cant tell them not to take open shots.
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Re: 2009 State Girls B Basketball

Postby bigpoppakdog » Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:54 pm

baseball wrote:someone whose been around a while longer then me haha....why was the NBA so much higher scoring the in the 80s? better shooters or what? i supose everyone was money from 18 feet and in and then they put in a 3 point line and everyone wanted to shoot that...anyone with any insight?


I would say yes most definitely better shooters years ago(heck, nowdays how many NBA players could you beat shooting free throws?). Michael Jordan was not known for his jump shot when he first came into the league and he developed into a very good outside shooter. The three point line is interesting. They moved it in a few years ago and the shooting % actually went down if I am not mistaken(though I could be on this one.) The main difference between the last few decades is that you see a lot of half-court games nowdays. I liked the games where you would try to get 15 to 20 shots on fast break opportunities and another 40 or so in the half court set. Now it seems like you might get 10 fast break opportunities a game today. Most of the time it seems they get the rebound and it is "set up" the offense instead of the "showtime" days years ago and I don't mean just the NBA. Even with a shot clock you see many teams run the offense down until 5 seconds of so anyway before they take a shot.

No need for in Class B. Like I said, if it aint broke, dont fix it.
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Re: 2009 State Girls B Basketball

Postby tingly » Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:12 pm

Once the game is in hand, like 70-0, you can have your players run half-court offenses, require everyone has to touch the ball before a shot, call off the press, put in your deep bench,... You don't progress your team from pressing and cherry-picking that bad of an opponent for 32 minutes. If that's your game, you need all the half-court practice you can get.

It's broken a tiny bit without shot clocks as long as 4-2 games are possible. However, bottom teams in Class B would have a tough time getting off any shots in a quarter. Clocks would solve one problem, only to make a worse one. If Class B splits, it'd make a little better sense.
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Re: 2009 State Girls B Basketball

Postby north_border_eagles2106 » Wed Mar 11, 2009 3:21 am

baseball wrote:you have to remember why that MPCG-Trinity game was in the 30's, they were far and away the 2 best defensive teams in the state. some people might even say that that game might have even been lower scoring with a shot clock. the players would have felt pressed and forced more things.

I also made an arguement last year that scoring is not the problem. i used the NDHSAA site last year, which was small in smaple size because not all B schools post stats. but alot of the ones that did averaged just as many, maybe a few less, points as Class A in shorter games. But when i transferred them from 32 minute games to 36 minute games almost all B teams had higher PPG then class A.

Another reason you dont need a shot clock, makes upsets more likely. if a lesser skilled team can control the tempo and limit the possessions of the team with superiour scorers why dont they deserve to win? How about the Steele-Dawson girls games against Ashley, Wing, and Kulm for the last 4-5 years?? when the final score is 86-9 and so on...i know there are more scores like this around the state but since Steele is the team I know yea..imagine them games with a shot clock. 115-12. the team from texas that won by 100 points, coach ended up getting fired, they forfeit the game for sportsmanship reason, all that good stuff. That's what would happen in Class B girls basketball when a team like Steele would play them type of teams.

As much as it would make close games more exciting it would make blow outs even worse because people will always them be blamed for running up the score when they were being forced to shoot. not because they want to...but because the rule says they have to in a short amount of time or its a turnover.



I have no remorse for teams that get blown out that bad at the varsity level. If you are getting beat that bad you're kids need to practice more. Nothing short of a miracle would help teams that lose that bad. Get in the gym, off guitar hero, and practice.

As far as the MPCG and DT game goes, I know they were probably thee 2 best defensive teams in the state but it's because they're styles of play were identical that they were going to play all the teams by slowing down the game and grinding it out. You can still do that with a shot clock but you won't see these possessions that last sometimes up to TWO minutes in a quarter. MPCG in 2006 had enough size, speed, and talent to score 65+ points a game easily. That won't take away from their defense, if anything it'll help them out because they wouldn't be in a situation late in a game when they've given up just 31 points to still lose the game.

I know everyone thats a hardcore class B fan doesn't like this idea and thinks it'll ruin the game but if you think about it any level of basketball past high school deals with a shot clock. If you're a parent or coach and have a player that you know can play past high school wouldn't you want him/her to be ready for that? If you're a player wouldn't you rather go through the process of learning how to play with a shot clock in high school then you're freshman year in college. It makes players think more and become so much better with a shot clock. I will not change my opinion on this topic at anytime. I also heard from a very reliable source that there was a vote on this from coaches in district 3 and they all voted for getting a shot clock.

All a shot clock will do is help everyone from players to coaches. Players will learn how to play in the clutch, and coaches will have to keep on coaching in the clutch. It almost takes the coaching factor out of the game because any varsity team can run the triangle drill up at the half court line to waste the clock.
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Re: 2009 State Girls B Basketball

Postby Deuce » Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:08 am

The Texas team that got blown out was a school for kids with learning disablilities and has 20 students. Do you think they really needed to score a 100 or hold them to 0?
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Re: 2009 State Girls B Basketball

Postby baseball » Wed Mar 11, 2009 12:23 pm

There has to be lines somewhere though. if you do it just to prepare them for college, then youll have to put it in for jr high to get them ready for high school. and then elementary ball to get them ready for jr high. how many players are there in class B? how many are going to play college ball? maybe 8-10 wll play at some level. maybe its just me but i would much rather see a rule that says a team cant play a half court zone defense before a shot clock. adapt some form of illegal defense rule like the NBA.
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Re: 2009 State Girls B Basketball

Postby 07ndgolfer » Wed Mar 11, 2009 12:43 pm

Deuce wrote:The Texas team that got blown out was a school for kids with learning disablilities and has 20 students. Do you think they really needed to score a 100 or hold them to 0?


By no means as a coach can you tell your team to back down or tell them to step aside and let the other team score. Since this team they played is soooo horrible, the better team's coaches and or administration should have never scheduled the game if they could have avoided it. I guess the only question I have is did the coach play the starters the entire game? Or did they play the bench the majority of the minutes? If they never pulled the starters, then I'd consider that unethical... but if they played the bottom of the bench most of the time and still won, then there's nothing more they could have done...
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Re: 2009 State Girls B Basketball

Postby Deuce » Wed Mar 11, 2009 2:04 pm

100-0 is what caused the uproar. If it was 98-2 I don't think people would have perceived it as harshly. The numers 100 and 0 is what I think gets peoples attention. I agree the administrators shouldn't have scheduled a game with a team pulling up in the short bus but no other schools they played routed them 100-0. Here's a bit of trivia. 1916 FB Georgia Tech Vs. Cumberland College 222-0 and who was the winning coach? John Heisman for whom the Heisman trophy is named. Maybe we are getting too soft.
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Re: 2009 State Girls B Basketball

Postby Eminence » Wed Mar 11, 2009 2:09 pm

I think we are getting soft. I could see getting upset if we were talking 7th grade basketball and kids are still learning the game. By Varsity, your best should be on the floor and should be a result of what the coach has taught them. The one fans should be upset with is the Coach of the team who scored 0.
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