Seeding

Class B Girls
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Seeding

Postby heimer » Sun Mar 03, 2019 11:18 am

I had the seeding procedure explained to me yesterday.

The coaches are sent a ballot of the other seven teams (not yours) and you rank them 1 through 7.

One coach from the east seeded Kindred 2nd, two others see them 3rd.

That would mean the west coaches, in an attempt to angle for a 4 or 5, block ranked Kindred 7th, knowing they were a threat.

Lionsfan, Bison06, parents from Hettinger that took out loans for gas, they can all say what they want. There was collusion in the seeding process, pure and simple.

This system needs fixing. The NDHSAA should assign a committee of 5 Class A coaches to seed the B. Bring the finished in to make the case to the committee, and let the committee make the final choice.

Its clear those with skin in the game chose themselves over the process.

Not surprising. That's why we don't have three classes.
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Re: Seeding

Postby scc » Sun Mar 03, 2019 11:23 am

The bias reaches farther than tournament seeding, too. It's always going to be East vs. West.

As far as seeding the tournament, I think there is a combination of bias and strategy to position yourself or other teams on the bracket.
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Re: Seeding

Postby justplayalready » Sun Mar 03, 2019 11:44 am

I questioned the need for seeding last year after the girls B, and most disagreed...I questioned it as it creates the team playing the best basketball is somehow an underdog because they are not seeded...Coach Brossart was flat out asked that last night and completely went against that myth. Grant County last year seemed to feed into they were somehow an underdog...Of course the TV plays it up...more drama the better right?

The defense for seeding is you cant have #1 versus #2 play on the first afternoon...show me where that had happened??? only clear cut team above the others the last ten years that I remember on the boys side has been Lions, Tigers, Braves oh my. Girls side may be different, Beach went down first round one year...Ryan didn't walk through???To me another myth

Again I don't see a problem with a pre-determined rotation among Region versus Region set up and not seeding it...even more so when we have got, getting now, and will continue to have in the current structure a fairly balanced field.

Or is at all being done to get the best TV product??
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Re: Seeding

Postby The Schwab » Sun Mar 03, 2019 11:46 am

heimer wrote:I had the seeding procedure explained to me yesterday.

The coaches are sent a ballot of the other seven teams (not yours) and you rank them 1 through 7.

One coach from the east seeded Kindred 2nd, two others see them 3rd.

That would mean the west coaches, in an attempt to angle for a 4 or 5, block ranked Kindred 7th, knowing they were a threat.

Lionsfan, Bison06, parents from Hettinger that took out loans for gas, they can all say what they want. There was collusion in the seeding process, pure and simple.

This system needs fixing. The NDHSAA should assign a committee of 5 Class A coaches to seed the B. Bring the finished in to make the case to the committee, and let the committee make the final choice.

Its clear those with skin in the game chose themselves over the process.

Not surprising. That's why we don't have three classes.


So now you’re going to call character into question of the coaches from the teams on the west. Seems like your
MO.
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Re: Seeding

Postby scc » Sun Mar 03, 2019 11:53 am

As long as we're getting exciting championship games, things will be status quo.
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Re: Seeding

Postby ndlionsfan » Sun Mar 03, 2019 12:31 pm

scc wrote:As long as we're getting exciting championship games, things will be status quo.


And that's what this system has seemed to bring to the table. I think it all works pretty good. People were complaining before when the region matchups for set years in advance. Now after 5 years people are complaining the new system needs changing. People will always find something to complain about it. It works fine, leave it alone.
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Re: Seeding

Postby ndlionsfan » Sun Mar 03, 2019 12:38 pm

heimer wrote:I had the seeding procedure explained to me yesterday.

One coach from the east seeded Kindred 2nd, two others see them 3rd.



And you're absolutely certain on this and actually seen the votes from these coaches? I highly doubt it. Does your team ever not get the raw end of the deal Heimer?
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Re: Seeding

Postby heimer » Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:27 pm

I don't have a team.

And I trust my source 100%.

Collusion. Pure and simple.
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Re: Seeding

Postby Bisonguy06 » Sun Mar 03, 2019 3:45 pm

In the seeding process, the best and worst rankings are dropped. If your intel is correct, the #2 ranking given to Kindred was an outlier that wouldn’t have counted in its favor.

Very possible that the remaining coaches, having not seen Kindred, left Kindred outside the top five based on record alone.

Region champs would have roughly 12 hours after winning their championship game to “collude” before sending in seeding.

Rugby took a head to head loss to Trenton and had incentive to rank them high.

The other side of the coin here is to say, how could east coaches “know” that undefeated Trenton and/or one loss Hettinger-Scranton weren’t worthy of seeds?

You can say that Kindred was not given proper respect by the west without buying the collusion conspiracy theory nonsense.

You can also say “that’s why they play the game” as Chris Berman would say. This is why we don’t hand out trophies to seeds, we hand them to winners. Kindred passed every test. Hats off to them.
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Re: Seeding

Postby Bisonguy06 » Sun Mar 03, 2019 4:24 pm

P.S. I was among the first to speak in favor of the move to the Betty versus the Alerus. And after seeing the Betty this week, I will forever advocate for Grand Forks remaining in the B girls state tourney rotation, despise its geographical disadvantage.
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Re: Seeding

Postby ndlionsfan » Sun Mar 03, 2019 4:34 pm

Bisonguy06 wrote:In the seeding process, the best and worst rankings are dropped. If your intel is correct, the #2 ranking given to Kindred was an outlier that wouldn’t have counted in its favor.

Very possible that the remaining coaches, having not seen Kindred, left Kindred outside the top five based on record alone.

Region champs would have roughly 12 hours after winning their championship game to “collude” before sending in seeding.


Just like a supposed #7 ranking would be thrown out as well. I'm sure most of the coaches ranked Shiloh last either from seeing them versus similar opponents or based on record alone. I'm confident your second statement is also true. Kindred has a pretty young team and looking at record alone if coaches hadn't seen them play, it would be hard to put them above KC, Trenton, LEM, and Thompson (plus the head to head).
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Re: Seeding

Postby prairiefox » Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:30 pm

If you went by computer rankings alone, it stood like this.
1. Langdon
2. Rugby
3. Hettinger
4. Thompson
5. Kidder
6. Kindred
7. Trenton
8. Shiloh

This is based on strength of schedule, how much games are won by, record and opponents record.
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Re: Seeding

Postby Bisonguy06 » Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:19 pm

So Kindred had neither a top five record nor a top five computer ranking, yet we have to entertain the idea of collusion in the west?
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Re: Seeding

Postby Dakotastater » Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:31 pm

Kindred did end up with a "perfect" tournament. That is each of the three teams they played only loss was to Kindred. Pretty convincing that they probably should have had a seed, and were definitely the best team in the tournament. I doubt there was collusion, but more likely a weak Region 1 (only other really good team was Richland), and losses to the two other good teams they played during the regular season (Thompson and Grafton) which hurt their RPI and computer ranking.
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Re: Seeding

Postby vikingman » Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:28 pm

I wouldn't say that Kindred is 'definitely' the best team in the tournament. Yes, they won it, but with two 2-point victories (and one of those wins against the #14th ranked team in the state), I don't know that they would win it if they played it over again this week.
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Re: Seeding

Postby sideliner » Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:11 pm

vikingman wrote:I wouldn't say that Kindred is 'definitely' the best team in the tournament. Yes, they won it, but with two 2-point victories (and one of those wins against the #14th ranked team in the state), I don't know that they would win it if they played it over again this week.


I think you could say that about any team in the tournament but they did win every game. I don't know why you would try to diminish what they accomplished. # 14th in the state really?
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Re: Seeding

Postby woodchuck10 » Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:21 am

The seeding before state is flawed. Doesn’t take into account what you had to get there. We should seed the regions 1-8 before regions start. Take the top 4 QRF or another formula before regionals and seed or rank the Regions and bracket them that way.

Using the boys right now as an example:
Region 1 - 345.4
Region 2 - 387.4
Region 3 - 312.4
Region 4 - 354.7
Region 5 - 322.4
Region 6 - 361.6
Region 7 - 342
Region 8 - 334.4

#1 Region 2 champ vs #8 Region 3 champ
#4 Region 1 champ vs #5 Region 7 champ
#2 Region 6 champ vs #7 Region 5 champ
#3 Region 4 champ vs #6 Region 8 champ

Now on Thursday night you know who you play when you play after winning the region.
Use some kind of formula, QRF or the like. Stop expecting coaches to rank teams they haven’t seen all year. Rank the regions not the teams that qualify.
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Re: Seeding

Postby ndlionsfan » Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:53 am

woodchuck10 wrote:The seeding before state is flawed. Doesn’t take into account what you had to get there. We should seed the regions 1-8 before regions start. Take the top 4 QRF or another formula before regionals and seed or rank the Regions and bracket them that way.

Using the boys right now as an example:
Region 1 - 345.4
Region 2 - 387.4
Region 3 - 312.4
Region 4 - 354.7
Region 5 - 322.4
Region 6 - 361.6
Region 7 - 342
Region 8 - 334.4

#1 Region 2 champ vs #8 Region 3 champ
#4 Region 1 champ vs #5 Region 7 champ
#2 Region 6 champ vs #7 Region 5 champ
#3 Region 4 champ vs #6 Region 8 champ

Now on Thursday night you know who you play when you play after winning the region.
Use some kind of formula, QRF or the like. Stop expecting coaches to rank teams they haven’t seen all year. Rank the regions not the teams that qualify.


I actually really like this idea.
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Re: Seeding

Postby vikingman » Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:57 am

sideliner wrote:I think you could say that about any team in the tournament but they did win every game. I don't know why you would try to diminish what they accomplished. # 14th in the state really?


Was just disagreeing with the wording of the poster who said Kindred was 'Definitely' (i.e. 'clearly') the best team at state. Kindred won it to be sure, but they certainly didn't dominate the field.
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Re: Seeding

Postby airmail » Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:44 am

woodchuck10 wrote:The seeding before state is flawed. Doesn’t take into account what you had to get there. We should seed the regions 1-8 before regions start. Take the top 4 QRF or another formula before regionals and seed or rank the Regions and bracket them that way.

Stop expecting coaches to rank teams they haven’t seen all year. Rank the regions not the teams that qualify.


Can it really be this simple? I like that it includes the strength of the region in some capacity too. There's a lot of different mathematical formulas out there besides qrf that can be considered, keeping in mind that people have always maintained that a human element is necessary to address intangibles.

I'd sure like to see what the GBB qrf rankings were before the state tournament for comparison. This is really interesting.
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Re: Seeding

Postby sportsnut5 » Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:24 am

I like this idea as well, as region strength should be factored in. It is impossible, with the field we had at the state B, for coaches to correctly rank that field. Without the eye test, much of the seeding falls on using outside metrics. If the tournament started again this week, there are many teams in that field that could come out on top. Congrats to Kindred, they are the state champs. They earned it through their play at the tournament.
One more thing on using the QRF or a computer model, it must make sure that the records of out of state opponents is included as well. I know there were eastern teams that played strong Minnesota teams and Hettinger-Scranton's best regular season win was against a 16-0 Faith, SD team at the time. Maybe I am wrong, but I do not think our current computer rankings factor in the out of state wins and the quality of those wins.
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Re: Seeding

Postby Dakotastater » Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:34 am

vikingman wrote:
sideliner wrote:I think you could say that about any team in the tournament but they did win every game. I don't know why you would try to diminish what they accomplished. # 14th in the state really?


Was just disagreeing with the wording of the poster who said Kindred was 'Definitely' (i.e. 'clearly') the best team at state. Kindred won it to be sure, but they certainly didn't dominate the field.


The proofs in the puddin' anything else is conjecture. As noted, LEM, Thompson, and Rugby each had one loss and that was to Kindred. Truly a couple of breaks going the other way and there is a different state champ, but a few breaks Kindred's way and they win each game by 10.
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