North Dakota Preps

I’ll change the conversation slightly.

Is it wise to use up your fouls to give?

I think purposely committing a foul is an unnatural act, and the younger the kids, the sloppier the results. I’ve seen a variety of bad outcomes.

In this case, Trenton’s best player was coached to commit her fourth foul in a two point game.

I think highly of Coach Turcotte. Coaches, players and refs all make mistakes. I’m asking about the strategy. In the end, I’m ok with it IF this is something they’ve practiced.

What do you guys think?

You hit the nail on the head. If it’s something you’ve practiced it’s a weapon. Sometimes in those situations adrenaline takes over and you can end up fouling a jump shooter or worse

The Schwab wrote:You hit the nail on the head. If it’s something you’ve practiced it’s a weapon. Sometimes in those situations adrenaline takes over and you can end up fouling a jump shooter or worse

I’ve coached. “We need to foul” often becomes a two hand shove, despite my best efforts.

Coaches also can’t verbalize “we need to foul” when the ball is live. You need a code word. “We need to foul”, verbalized, can trigger the intentional foul call.

I don’t love the call last night. I don’t love the strategy, either. It was a tight game all the way, and both teams had dozens of opportunities to make one more play to win it in regulation.

Bisonguy06 wrote:I’ll change the conversation slightly.

Is it wise to use up your fouls to give?

I think purposely committing a foul is an unnatural act, and the younger the kids, the sloppier the results. I’ve seen a variety of bad outcomes.

In this case, Trenton’s best player was coached to commit her fourth foul in a two point game.

I think highly of Coach Turcotte. Coaches, players and refs all make mistakes. I’m asking about the strategy. In the end, I’m ok with it IF this is something they’ve practiced.

What do you guys think?

They still fouled too soon, but I think they had 2 fouls to give. You need to practice how to foul on purpose.

Trenton made a mistake at the end of OT too. I think there was around 40 seconds left, Trenton ball, down 3 and they were in a TO. Trenton had no plan on what to do if they didn't score. They needed to foul right away and they let way too much time come off the clock.

To be fair, Kludt tripping over her own feet made the foul look three times worse than it actually was.

Flip wrote:

Bisonguy06 wrote:I’ll change the conversation slightly.

Is it wise to use up your fouls to give?

I think purposely committing a foul is an unnatural act, and the younger the kids, the sloppier the results. I’ve seen a variety of bad outcomes.

In this case, Trenton’s best player was coached to commit her fourth foul in a two point game.

I think highly of Coach Turcotte. Coaches, players and refs all make mistakes. I’m asking about the strategy. In the end, I’m ok with it IF this is something they’ve practiced.

What do you guys think?

They still fouled too soon, but I think they had 2 fouls to give. You need to practice how to foul on purpose.

Trenton made a mistake at the end of OT too. I think there was around 40 seconds left, Trenton ball, down 3 and they were in a TO. Trenton had no plan on what to do if they didn't score. They needed to foul right away and they let way too much time come off the clock.

One bad thing about being unbeaten...May not have seen a lot of these situations to have a plan and to have actually seen it this year.

Starting/more and more to see the successful girls teams following the Four Winds model of scheduling a few losses aren't a bad thing...tho makes a mess seeding wise

The Schwab wrote:Article C of the intentional foul rule:

Contact that is not a legitimate attempt to play the ball or the player specifically designed to stop the clock or keep it from starting.

Whether you agree or not, it wasn’t a legitimate play on the ball, therefore should be called an intentional foul. I don’t care how much time is left. If it’s a foul in the first quarter it needs to be one in the fourth.

I respectfully disagree. I thought there was a play on the ball. The right hand is poking at it. It was clearly not a push or grab. It only looks like a grab because the offense fell forward. 1. The official was not in great position to see the play on the ball. 2. He stopped short 3. He was too far onto the court. 4. The calling official was very quick on the call. I think he heard the coach tell his players that they had fouls to give and anticipated the intentional call.

Trenton missed the front end of two bonus attempts and that was the biggest factor.

Well said BisonFan. I won't ague what the definition of the "intentional foul" is, but I will argue that particular case was not an intentional foul. Clearly she needed to foul and there was some fumbling of the feet that took place which made the contact a bit awkward, but she was playing on the ball plain and simple.

I don't believe that made the outcome of the game although it was something Trenton had to deal with mentally/emotionally over the course of a few seconds and the 4 minutes of overtime. Whether that played a part we will never know.

Trying to get my wife to venture East to watch Saturday's games. No calves on the ground yet so I feel somewhat safe.

Good luck to all the teams today and tomorrow.

madseason wrote:Rugby is the first team with Seniors. They know this is the last time they will play. And IT SHOWS!

Rugby reloads. Wouldn't doubt Region 6 goes through them again next year (though Velva and MLS will have something to say about that).

The Schwab wrote:Article C of the intentional foul rule:

Contact that is not a legitimate attempt to play the ball or the player specifically designed to stop the clock or keep it from starting.

Whether you agree or not, it wasn’t a legitimate play on the ball, therefore should be called an intentional foul. I don’t care how much time is left. If it’s a foul in the first quarter it needs to be one in the fourth.

1. Have always respected your opinion on here.
2. Have absolutely no emotional ties to either team. Heck, I picked H-S and won money on the game.
3. We could sit down over a beer, rewind it 10 times and you will give me 5 reasons why it was intentional and I will give you 5 why it wasn't. I will stand by my original post that it was an absolute terrible call.
4. As you stated above, "I don’t care how much time is left. If it’s a foul in the first quarter it needs to be one in the fourth." It should have been called in the first and it should have been called a foul in the 4th, just not intentional.

Alright, my turn.

1) quit yer bitc#!ng about driving to Grand Forks. We have a big state. Get used to it. Not every part of our state is pasture land and pheasant hunting. I respect those things, but the state is the state.

The tournaments are spread because there are some communities that take on revenue-losing tournaments/meets, so they are guaranteed something that generates revenue. Having the girls tournament in Grand forks is a good way to get them back for hosting golf, or fine arts, or soccer, things that do not generate revenue.

I drove to Hettinger in 1997 for a blind date in a Chevy Celebrity. True story. Not a big deal. Enjoy Grand Forks.

2) it's pretty clear to me we just couldn't have a repeat of state volleyball, with an all-east semifinal. So, we found a couple of schools with big records to seed, and forced Kindred, Langdon, and Thompson into the same bracket, probably to negate that whole "wah wah wah Thompson just played in that arena no fair no fair no fair wah wah wah" crap that was going on from the moment the tournament change was announced. The best five teams in the tournament are (in no order) Kindred, Langdon, Thompson, Kidder County, and then pick em. Record is not enough to use for seeding purposes if teams play much tougher schedules than their colleagues.

There was a team at state volleyball that absolutely didn't belong there, and there is at least one team at state basketball that doesn't belong there. What this tournament has done is tell schools to stop playing meaningful games in the regular season, run your record up, and get what you can. That's a setback for the game.

3) The Betty was awesome yesterday, far more entertaining than the same crowd at the Dome or the Alerus. I'm looking forward to tonight.

heimer wrote:Alright, my turn.

1) quit yer bitc#!ng about driving to Grand Forks. We have a big state. Get used to it. Not every part of our state is pasture land and pheasant hunting. I respect those things, but the state is the state.

The tournaments are spread because there are some communities that take on revenue-losing tournaments/meets, so they are guaranteed something that generates revenue. Having the girls tournament in Grand forks is a good way to get them back for hosting golf, or fine arts, or soccer, things that do not generate revenue.

I drove to Hettinger in 1997 for a blind date in a Chevy Celebrity. True story. Not a big deal. Enjoy Grand Forks.

2) it's pretty clear to me we just couldn't have a repeat of state volleyball, with an all-east semifinal. So, we found a couple of schools with big records to seed, and forced Kindred, Langdon, and Thompson into the same bracket, probably to negate that whole "wah wah wah Thompson just played in that arena no fair no fair no fair wah wah wah" crap that was going on from the moment the tournament change was announced. The best five teams in the tournament are (in no order) Kindred, Langdon, Thompson, Kidder County, and then pick em. Record is not enough to use for seeding purposes if teams play much tougher schedules than their colleagues.

There was a team at state volleyball that absolutely didn't belong there, and there is at least one team at state basketball that doesn't belong there. What this tournament has done is tell schools to stop playing meaningful games in the regular season, run your record up, and get what you can. That's a setback for the game.

3) The Betty was awesome yesterday, far more entertaining than the same crowd at the Dome or the Alerus. I'm looking forward to tonight.

Using QRF rankings, the 9 teams in the top 10 other than Trenton are an average driving time of 4.5 hours from Trenton, in GOOD weather. There are only 2 teams in the top 10 within 3 hours of Trenton, and one of them (Rugby) they defeated in the regular season. What exactly is it that Trenton was supposed to do this year (other than win every game and tournament and beat one of the only top 10 teams within 3 hours of home) to not "setback" the game for you?

heimer wrote:Alright, my turn.

1) quit yer bitc#!ng about driving to Grand Forks. We have a big state. Get used to it. Not every part of our state is pasture land and pheasant hunting. I respect those things, but the state is the state.

The tournaments are spread because there are some communities that take on revenue-losing tournaments/meets, so they are guaranteed something that generates revenue. Having the girls tournament in Grand forks is a good way to get them back for hosting golf, or fine arts, or soccer, things that do not generate revenue.

I drove to Hettinger in 1997 for a blind date in a Chevy Celebrity. True story. Not a big deal. Enjoy Grand Forks.

2) it's pretty clear to me we just couldn't have a repeat of state volleyball, with an all-east semifinal. So, we found a couple of schools with big records to seed, and forced Kindred, Langdon, and Thompson into the same bracket, probably to negate that whole "wah wah wah Thompson just played in that arena no fair no fair no fair wah wah wah" crap that was going on from the moment the tournament change was announced. The best five teams in the tournament are (in no order) Kindred, Langdon, Thompson, Kidder County, and then pick em. Record is not enough to use for seeding purposes if teams play much tougher schedules than their colleagues.

There was a team at state volleyball that absolutely didn't belong there, and there is at least one team at state basketball that doesn't belong there. What this tournament has done is tell schools to stop playing meaningful games in the regular season, run your record up, and get what you can. That's a setback for the game.

3) The Betty was awesome yesterday, far more entertaining than the same crowd at the Dome or the Alerus. I'm looking forward to tonight.

Agree with 98% of this Heimer. Would have never thought it could be possible

senditin wrote:

Flip wrote:

sportsfan111 wrote:Curious why did Langdon need an Edmore co-op more than Lakota?

I don't have any inside information, but logic tells me Edmore wanted out of the Lakota co-op. Landgon gladly took them.

Lakota need girls. I think they had 1 girl play in JH.

Basically, there wasnt enough talent at Lakota for the Ronnigen/ Freijie parents so they broke the coop. Then they hired Scheer, who happened to have a talented daughter. Its all about "my kid winning at all costs." Karma is a B. Also, not hard to see Ronnigen fouling out at state. She's allowed to get away with alot in R4.

I don't believe that's the entire story.

theman wrote:
Using QRF rankings, the 9 teams in the top 10 other than Trenton are an average driving time of 4.5 hours from Trenton, in GOOD weather. There are only 2 teams in the top 10 within 3 hours of Trenton, and one of them (Rugby) they defeated in the regular season. What exactly is it that Trenton was supposed to do this year (other than win every game and tournament and beat one of the only top 10 teams within 3 hours of home) to not "setback" the game for you?

Not get the #4 seed.

heimer wrote:

theman wrote:
Using QRF rankings, the 9 teams in the top 10 other than Trenton are an average driving time of 4.5 hours from Trenton, in GOOD weather. There are only 2 teams in the top 10 within 3 hours of Trenton, and one of them (Rugby) they defeated in the regular season. What exactly is it that Trenton was supposed to do this year (other than win every game and tournament and beat one of the only top 10 teams within 3 hours of home) to not "setback" the game for you?

Not get the #4 seed.

So this is kind of like UCF in D1 college football. Trenton can go undefeated and beat a top-10 team during the season but it's still not good enough to get a seed?

Heimer is just blowing smoke out the rear again, there are 6 teams in this tournament who had arguments for the seeds. Coaches seed the team and we have no idea what system they individually used. If Kindred or Thompson want to play a tough regular season schedule, tonight is the night that it will pay off for them, it doesn't work for everyone.

classB4ever wrote:

The Schwab wrote:Article C of the intentional foul rule:

Contact that is not a legitimate attempt to play the ball or the player specifically designed to stop the clock or keep it from starting.

Whether you agree or not, it wasn’t a legitimate play on the ball, therefore should be called an intentional foul. I don’t care how much time is left. If it’s a foul in the first quarter it needs to be one in the fourth.

1. Have always respected your opinion on here.
2. Have absolutely no emotional ties to either team. Heck, I picked H-S and won money on the game.
3. We could sit down over a beer, rewind it 10 times and you will give me 5 reasons why it was intentional and I will give you 5 why it wasn't. I will stand by my original post that it was an absolute terrible call.
4. As you stated above, "I don’t care how much time is left. If it’s a foul in the first quarter it needs to be one in the fourth." It should have been called in the first and it should have been called a foul in the 4th, just not intentional.

I absolutely respect your opinion, and to be honest, almost every other poster on here. If it helps anybody else’s peace of mind, I think there are a lot more fouls throughout the course of a game that should be called intentional!

Couple points:

First of all, officials are human. Many people on this board have probably officiated in the past, and nobody's perfect. An official might make a tough call once in a while, which I believe happened in this case. I do believe it was a foul, (even though the H/S girl tripped) but it shouldn't have warranted an intentional foul call. In the end, the Trenton coach handled it with class when discussing it with his players. To me, that is a huge lesson to be learned in all of this.

Second, I really believe the winner of Kindred/Thompson is going to be tough to beat in the championship game. I'll take the winner of Kindred/Thompson in the championship by 15 points, maybe 20.

Third, I can't wait to see if Abby Duchscherer from Kindred gets First team All State as a Freshman. I don't know if there's a better player that I've seen in class B Girls.

Fourth, seeing the only private school in the State Tourney struggle is delightful. This year's field was one regional championship away from a true small town Class B tournament, just like the old days.

Last, I really enjoy reading comments on here once in a while. Heimer's "true story" about going on a date to Hettinger in 1997 gave me a good chuckle.

If you go back to the 77' Epping vs Hillsboro semi final game there was a Carrying the ball called when Bob Allard tipped it to Don Allard and Don took off to a wide open Hoop (one shining moment documentary touched on this) this call was very controversial....the young Gal for Trenton has the quickest hands in in the tournament, she had just stolen the ball at least 2 times leading up to another attempt at a steal, the game had definitely turned into her and the gal she fouled, for what was then called an Intentional....tough break!
Ironically Trenton and Epping aren't that far apart...

heimer wrote:Alright, my turn.

1) quit yer bitc#!ng about driving to Grand Forks. We have a big state. Get used to it. Not every part of our state is pasture land and pheasant hunting. I respect those things, but the state is the state.

The tournaments are spread because there are some communities that take on revenue-losing tournaments/meets, so they are guaranteed something that generates revenue. Having the girls tournament in Grand forks is a good way to get them back for hosting golf, or fine arts, or soccer, things that do not generate revenue.

I drove to Hettinger in 1997 for a blind date in a Chevy Celebrity. True story. Not a big deal. Enjoy Grand Forks.

2) it's pretty clear to me we just couldn't have a repeat of state volleyball, with an all-east semifinal. So, we found a couple of schools with big records to seed, and forced Kindred, Langdon, and Thompson into the same bracket, probably to negate that whole "wah wah wah Thompson just played in that arena no fair no fair no fair wah wah wah" crap that was going on from the moment the tournament change was announced. The best five teams in the tournament are (in no order) Kindred, Langdon, Thompson, Kidder County, and then pick em. Record is not enough to use for seeding purposes if teams play much tougher schedules than their colleagues.

There was a team at state volleyball that absolutely didn't belong there, and there is at least one team at state basketball that doesn't belong there. What this tournament has done is tell schools to stop playing meaningful games in the regular season, run your record up, and get what you can. That's a setback for the game.

3) The Betty was awesome yesterday, far more entertaining than the same crowd at the Dome or the Alerus. I'm looking forward to tonight.

In response to number 2, man it’s such a shame that they had to rig the seedings to have 2 of the best from the west regions play in the first round. We couldn’t have an all-west final like we had last year!!

packers21 wrote:Heimer is just blowing smoke out the rear again, there are 6 teams in this tournament who had arguments for the seeds. Coaches seed the team and we have no idea what system they individually used. If Kindred or Thompson want to play a tough regular season schedule, tonight is the night that it will pay off for them, it doesn't work for everyone.

It already worked out for Trenton and Hettinger-Scranton......to not play one.

So, there's that.

Flip wrote:

classB4ever wrote:Do not care who wins. But the intentional foul called on Trenton was the worst call I have ever witnessed in 45 years of watching basketball. That ref should be ashamed of himself. Foul is fine. Intentional? Good Lord. They had the lead. Embarrassing.

I'd love to see that again. I won't say the official's name because that's what he wants. He's always been a hot shot, always try to get people to look at him.

Then thats the kind that needs to hit the road!!! I see this a lot with certain teams, then people want to try say the opposite afterwards BS man.

UNDSiouxfan wrote:Couple points:

First of all, officials are human. Many people on this board have probably officiated in the past, and nobody's perfect. An official might make a tough call once in a while, which I believe happened in this case. I do believe it was a foul, (even though the H/S girl tripped) but it shouldn't have warranted an intentional foul call. In the end, the Trenton coach handled it with class when discussing it with his players. To me, that is a huge lesson to be learned in all of this.

Second, I really believe the winner of Kindred/Thompson is going to be tough to beat in the championship game. I'll take the winner of Kindred/Thompson in the championship by 15 points, maybe 20.

Third, I can't wait to see if Abby Duchscherer from Kindred gets First team All State as a Freshman. I don't know if there's a better player that I've seen in class B Girls.

Fourth, seeing the only private school in the State Tourney struggle is delightful. This year's field was one regional championship away from a true small town Class B tournament, just like the old days.

Last, I really enjoy reading comments on here once in a while. Heimer's "true story" about going on a date to Hettinger in 1997 gave me a good chuckle.

I agree with point two, I think Rugby could make a game of it, but in my opinion the championship game is tonight between Kindred and Thompson.

As for point three, you are already a year too late. Duchscherer was already first team all state as an 8th grader (the only non senior on the team).

heimer wrote:

packers21 wrote:Heimer is just blowing smoke out the rear again, there are 6 teams in this tournament who had arguments for the seeds. Coaches seed the team and we have no idea what system they individually used. If Kindred or Thompson want to play a tough regular season schedule, tonight is the night that it will pay off for them, it doesn't work for everyone.

It already worked out for Trenton and Hettinger-Scranton......to not play one.

So, there's that.

Well that's also not true. Trenton beat Rugby and HS played Linton who was very good this season and beat Faith SD. If it doesn't fit the personal narrative you're going for, you completely ignore facts.