2018-19 STATE CLASS B GBB TOURNEY

Class B Girls
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Re: 2018-19 STATE CLASS B GBB TOURNEY

Postby Dakotastater » Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:25 pm

Kindred by 20, unless it gets ugly, then Kindred by 15.
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Re: 2018-19 STATE CLASS B GBB TOURNEY

Postby Bisonguy06 » Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:56 pm

heimer wrote:
justplayalready wrote:
So we don't put the correct teams #1 and #2 because it would lead to a 3 class system??? or an honest discussion about one?? or some other narrative???


We intentionally seeded two west teams 4 and 5 to make sure the west had a team in the semis after a disastrous showing at the state volleyball tournament.

The rest is conjecture, but good conjecture.


The east has dominated volleyball for a long time. It was an all west final in GBB last year.

Either the coaches seeded these teams, or Heimer found a frozen envelope somewhere. #ConspiracyTheory #MattFetchActedAlone
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Re: 2018-19 STATE CLASS B GBB TOURNEY

Postby Wildcat » Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:56 pm

heimer wrote:
justplayalready wrote:
So we don't put the correct teams #1 and #2 because it would lead to a 3 class system??? or an honest discussion about one?? or some other narrative???


We intentionally seeded two west teams 4 and 5 to make sure the west had a team in the semis after a disastrous showing at the state volleyball tournament.

The rest is conjecture, but good conjecture.


Please tell me how this happened. The coaches vote: best and worst score is thrown out. Please tell me how the coaches intentionally rigged this system through their online voting process.
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Re: 2018-19 STATE CLASS B GBB TOURNEY

Postby Wildcat » Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:05 am

heimer wrote:Alright, my turn.

1) quit yer bitc#!ng about driving to Grand Forks. We have a big state. Get used to it. Not every part of our state is pasture land and pheasant hunting. I respect those things, but the state is the state.

The tournaments are spread because there are some communities that take on revenue-losing tournaments/meets, so they are guaranteed something that generates revenue. Having the girls tournament in Grand forks is a good way to get them back for hosting golf, or fine arts, or soccer, things that do not generate revenue. .


This is not really true (why GF gets money tournaments). State soccer, golf, XC, fine arts...Jamestown is in the regular rotation for these tournaments. Dickinson hosts many of them as well, and these towns don’t get “money-makers” to make up for it.

It’s venue- and hotels-driven. Not much more than that, and that’s how it should be. You can host it or you can’t.
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Re: 2018-19 STATE CLASS B GBB TOURNEY

Postby heimer » Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:25 am

The Schwab wrote:
heimer wrote:Alright, my turn.

1) quit yer bitc#!ng about driving to Grand Forks. We have a big state. Get used to it. Not every part of our state is pasture land and pheasant hunting. I respect those things, but the state is the state.

The tournaments are spread because there are some communities that take on revenue-losing tournaments/meets, so they are guaranteed something that generates revenue. Having the girls tournament in Grand forks is a good way to get them back for hosting golf, or fine arts, or soccer, things that do not generate revenue.

I drove to Hettinger in 1997 for a blind date in a Chevy Celebrity. True story. Not a big deal. Enjoy Grand Forks.

2) it's pretty clear to me we just couldn't have a repeat of state volleyball, with an all-east semifinal. So, we found a couple of schools with big records to seed, and forced Kindred, Langdon, and Thompson into the same bracket, probably to negate that whole "wah wah wah Thompson just played in that arena no fair no fair no fair wah wah wah" crap that was going on from the moment the tournament change was announced. The best five teams in the tournament are (in no order) Kindred, Langdon, Thompson, Kidder County, and then pick em. Record is not enough to use for seeding purposes if teams play much tougher schedules than their colleagues.

There was a team at state volleyball that absolutely didn't belong there, and there is at least one team at state basketball that doesn't belong there. What this tournament has done is tell schools to stop playing meaningful games in the regular season, run your record up, and get what you can. That's a setback for the game.

3) The Betty was awesome yesterday, far more entertaining than the same crowd at the Dome or the Alerus. I'm looking forward to tonight.


In response to number 2, man it’s such a shame that they had to rig the seedings to have 2 of the best from the west regions play in the first round. We couldn’t have an all-west final like we had last year!!


If you're referring to basketball, Thompson played Medina last year in the semis. That would be a Region 2 vs 3. In what world is that an all-west semifinal.

Also, no one bitc#es and complains about an all-west semifinal, because, in the east, we realize we will have to drive to get to actual games. But imagine the pain and heartbreak of the convoy that came up from Region 7 to see all of their west comrades in the sunshine half.
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Re: 2018-19 STATE CLASS B GBB TOURNEY

Postby Flip » Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:31 am

heimer wrote:Also, no one bitc#es and complains about an all-west semifinal, because, in the east, we realize we will have to drive to get to actual games. But imagine the pain and heartbreak of the convoy that came up from Region 7 to see all of their west comrades in the sunshine half.


He said "all-west final." No mention of semi-final.

Thompson and Medina played for 3rd place. Medina lost to Grant County in one semi. Thompson lost to Killdeer in the other semi.
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Re: 2018-19 STATE CLASS B GBB TOURNEY

Postby B-oldtimer » Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:31 am

I am going to offer a little different take on State tournament Region 8 is one of the weaker regions by everyone accounts here on this thread. But i also think they probably on average have more smaller class b schools now and have no private schools in the region. I was thinking today at the tournament that Trenton represents large portion of the class b schools that are smaller and like in the past these small schools tend to schedule games from their region. Trenton is making appearance at the state after 19 years so basically they get a good team about once generation not like say Kindred who is making three state appearance in row and looks to have team that could go several more times. Teams like this can and will get chances to schedule other quality programs because they are known team to provide high level of competition. This is getting to my point why there should be 3 classes of basketball in the state. There are whole number of schools like Trenton in class b but if your in regions where you have several number of Kindreds in your region and maybe private even when you have good team you never reach a state tournament. I just look at the state tournament and i see to many of the same schools coming back quite regularly to the state tournament. In last 10 years Kindred has been 4 times, Thompson 6 times, Kidder county 3 times, Shiloh 5 times, LEM has been twice but Edmore has been there 5 times now with previous coop, Hettinger hasn't been here for 25 years and Trenton 19 years. Also Region 8 had Watford city move up to class A but had represented this region 5 times in the past 10 years. This is telling me we need to change something because its not healthy situation when only few get to go to state and rest just provide seasonal competition for the top couple of team in each region. I would like to see whole state tournament made up schools that only get state maybe once or twice in generation. I think state tournament should be something special not something that happens every few years.
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Re: 2018-19 STATE CLASS B GBB TOURNEY

Postby muley14 » Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:18 am

B-oldtimer wrote: I would like to see whole state tournament made up schools that only get state maybe once or twice in generation. I think state tournament should be something special not something that happens every few years.


So if a team is supposed to make it to state once or twice every 18 years. And 8 teams make it to state every year. Wouldn't that mean there should be at least 12 to 15 teams competing for each spot every year? What would a system like that look like?
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Re: 2018-19 STATE CLASS B GBB TOURNEY

Postby heimer » Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:18 pm

I no longer advocate a three class system.

The system is fine. These are the best teams we have. It's what we do.
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Re: 2018-19 STATE CLASS B GBB TOURNEY

Postby winner-within » Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:40 pm

I say Rugby wins...no horses in the race either team :)
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Re: 2018-19 STATE CLASS B GBB TOURNEY

Postby ReadyToPlay » Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:46 pm

Since Old timer brought it the C class system up, I would like to reiterate the question as I did a year ago in another post on the Boys side, which had tons of replies. It even got to the point if their ever was a three class system, I had the following question, " Does anyone think that a stand alone Class C tournament would eventually be bigger than the current B tourney?" I can only imagine!
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Re: 2018-19 STATE CLASS B GBB TOURNEY

Postby justplayalready » Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:13 pm

ReadyToPlay wrote:Since Old timer brought it the C class system up, I would like to reiterate the question as I did a year ago in another post on the Boys side, which had tons of replies. It even got to the point if their ever was a three class system, I had the following question, " Does anyone think that a stand alone Class C tournament would eventually be bigger than the current B tourney?" I can only imagine!


Bigger in what way??? Maybe bigger, but no way better...Best 3 day tourney has to include the big B's, co op to compete, privates, B's in close proximity to metro area, and the once in a generation true B teams. That is obvious.

Good or bad that is what has been created...
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Re: 2018-19 STATE CLASS B GBB TOURNEY

Postby aNDkid91 » Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:41 pm

heimer wrote:
There was a team at state volleyball that absolutely didn't belong there, and there is at least one team at state basketball that doesn't belong there. What this tournament has done is tell schools to stop playing meaningful games in the regular season, run your record up, and get what you can. That's a setback for the game.


They ALL belong there. They played their district games, played their region games and won. I understand that the west regions (7 and 8) are weaker regions but we don’t live next to big cities (i.e. Thompson) and we aren’t private schools. Some schools are consolidated...we are small town class B schools. We apologize if the games we play aren’t as exciting as you’d like but we’re (the players, fans, communities are excited) so maybe watch the games for a great play or two. But to suggest that there are teams that don’t belong? No

Also, no one bitc#es and complains about an all-west semifinal, because, in the east, we realize we will have to drive to get to actual games. But imagine the pain and heartbreak of the convoy that came up from Region 7 to see all of their west comrades in the sunshine half.


And those of us in the west don’t??
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Re: 2018-19 STATE CLASS B GBB TOURNEY

Postby heimer » Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:32 pm

Thompson has a school district that exports as many students as transfer in, period. And yes, some are athletes. Look up the numbers and get back to us.

Thompson, Langdon, Kindred all played games outside of their region this year, and traveled to do it. You should not be rewarded for hiding in your region, claiming Rugby and Linton are your big gets, and taking a seed that belonged to Kindred.

Just because a team won a region doesn't mean they belong in a state tournament field. It means they get to be in a state tournament field. Big difference.
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Re: 2018-19 STATE CLASS B GBB TOURNEY

Postby theman » Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:52 pm

heimer wrote:Thompson has a school district that exports as many students as transfer in, period. And yes, some are athletes. Look up the numbers and get back to us.

Thompson, Langdon, Kindred all played games outside of their region this year, and traveled to do it. You should not be rewarded for hiding in your region, claiming Rugby and Linton are your big gets, and taking a seed that belonged to Kindred.

Just because a team won a region doesn't mean they belong in a state tournament field. It means they get to be in a state tournament field. Big difference.

Do you understand North Dakota geography at all? Thompson, Langdon, and Kindred can travel 1-2 hours and get high-quality opponents outside of their region. Trenton has to travel at least 2 hours just to get out of their region, let alone play a ranked team. What about Kidder County traveling out-of-region to play Grant County, last year's state champs? Is that avoiding out-of-region competition too?
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Re: 2018-19 STATE CLASS B GBB TOURNEY

Postby heimer » Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:54 pm

Kidder County is getting quite a "favorable" review" today.
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Re: 2018-19 STATE CLASS B GBB TOURNEY

Postby heimer » Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:55 pm

theman wrote:
heimer wrote:Thompson has a school district that exports as many students as transfer in, period. And yes, some are athletes. Look up the numbers and get back to us.

Thompson, Langdon, Kindred all played games outside of their region this year, and traveled to do it. You should not be rewarded for hiding in your region, claiming Rugby and Linton are your big gets, and taking a seed that belonged to Kindred.

Just because a team won a region doesn't mean they belong in a state tournament field. It means they get to be in a state tournament field. Big difference.

Do you understand North Dakota geography at all? Thompson, Langdon, and Kindred can travel 1-2 hours and get high-quality opponents outside of their region. Trenton has to travel at least 2 hours just to get out of their region, let alone play a ranked team. What about Kidder County traveling out-of-region to play Grant County, last year's state champs? Is that avoiding out-of-region competition too?


Thompson also played in Minot this year to play better competition. The fix is on you, not them.
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Re: 2018-19 STATE CLASS B GBB TOURNEY

Postby heimer » Sat Mar 02, 2019 5:02 pm

And understand, I'm not saying Trenton didn't win the opportunity to be in the state tournament. That's our system.

I'm saying they do not deserve the 4 seed they got. Play whatever schedule you want. Don't complain when you are unseeded at 25-0.
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Re: 2018-19 STATE CLASS B GBB TOURNEY

Postby Bisonguy06 » Sat Mar 02, 2019 5:09 pm

Out of 106 teams, Hettinger-Scranton’s strength of schedule is 14th; Trenton’s is 29th.

Rugby (1), Langdon (3), Thompson (6), Kindred (7) and Shiloh (8) outrank the NightHawks in SOS.

https://classbbasketball.com/?s=rpi&y=2018&g=g

Admittedly those numbers improve with deeper runs in the postseason. Would’ve liked a peek prior to the state tourney.

Hettinger’s Region 7 is statistically the second strongest region. Region 8 is the weakest, weighing heavily on Trenton’s SOS number.
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Re: 2018-19 STATE CLASS B GBB TOURNEY

Postby heimer » Sat Mar 02, 2019 5:21 pm

My first impression is that we're seeding to say we're doing it, but we're not really doing it.

I can understand the occasional, even annual, debate over who deserved 3 and 4, to get a draw or the 5.

But this is unacceptable. Strength of schedule was not used at all, and, for that matter, neither was head to head. In the Thompson/Langdon scenario, it doesn't matter 2 vs 3, as, all else being equal, they meet no matter what. But a win in the regular season is a win. Unless the team that won suffered a significant injury or suspension, that head-to-head win should count for something.

If we're not using strengh of schedule and we're not using head-to-head, we're not seeding.
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Re: 2018-19 STATE CLASS B GBB TOURNEY

Postby Bisonguy06 » Sat Mar 02, 2019 5:24 pm

Would you advocate all seeding being done by a predetermined formula (RPI), rather than a vote of the coaches?
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Re: 2018-19 STATE CLASS B GBB TOURNEY

Postby heimer » Sat Mar 02, 2019 5:36 pm

I think a human element is necessary, but data needs to be part of the equation. It just wasn't this time.
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Re: 2018-19 STATE CLASS B GBB TOURNEY

Postby aNDkid91 » Sat Mar 02, 2019 6:43 pm

So basically kids who don’t get to play sports in Grand Forks go to Thompson. They played Dickinson Trinity and New Town beating DT by 15 or so and NT by almost 50. Not better competition. We can travel up to an hour and some change just to play teams in our district much less our region. We play in and out of our region. So what would you recommend we do? If your suggestion is to have only the teams who belong in the state tournament be the ones who get to go then how many teams do we allow? 8, 16, 24? With a few regions being heavily stacked as they are the state tournament would be repeats of regional tournaments.
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Re: 2018-19 STATE CLASS B GBB TOURNEY

Postby Flip » Sat Mar 02, 2019 7:40 pm

aNDkid91 wrote:So basically kids who don’t get to play sports in Grand Forks go to Thompson.

Thompson kids that don't get to play sports should go to Central.
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Re: 2018-19 STATE CLASS B GBB TOURNEY

Postby heimer » Sat Mar 02, 2019 7:46 pm

Thompson loses athletes to Grand Forks, not gains.

The kids in the program are home-grown. I know them, well. Thompson sends wrestlers, state place-winners, to Red River. They don't import their talent, and the way the district is drawn, their north-end population is closer to Central than it is to Thompson. They lose plenty of kids that way.

Know something before you spew.
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