Is the jury in yet?

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Is the jury in yet?

Postby ReadyToPlay » Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:26 pm

Just thought I would get some opinions on the rules we have had this past season. I did have some reservations initially on the mercy rule mainly because of playing time for the subs that have limited play time in either B-squad or A-squad. But witnessing some of these 67-8 games have convinced me that it is warranted. On the arc rule, it seems that referees are not confused at all now as they just simply call the defensive foul without hesitation and the coaches don't even question anymore as they were informed from day one what the call is going to be. IMO, these areas have been worked out....
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Re: Is the jury in yet?

Postby B-oldtimer » Sun Feb 26, 2017 3:15 pm

I don't know about mercy rule but to me it just means less playing time for the kids which is wrong. Two I think coaches could help with these lop sided games. I from the past where you minimized how bad you beat a team you played your second team or non-regulars as much as you could. Two limited your defense to good half court defense and you ran your offense looking for maximum best shot available. I think problem is we have people worried about career points, seating in state tournaments, and thinking that they have to play their regulars so much and instead just play the game to win by so much.
I just had interesting conversation other day with my son about basketball which he didn't play very much and he explained it to me. It was also while we were watching basketball from my day early 1980's of class b on you tube to look at how rules had changed from when I played. He said pointing out to me when your watching video of old games nobody was built like they are today. He said everyone was thin and slim at least in the video and kids were playing were smaller also than today. He also noted how game was called much closer where small player if was pushed or was inside blocking out any interference with that player was called even on charges close to basket. Also how they called jump ball much quicker then than now because there was jump ball. These changes he said would have made basketball fun for him because he is smaller kid and he could have played inside and could be aggressive by trying to score and rebound with a call there to protect smaller players. He said today its all about bigger player and if your small you just get pushed or run over by these bigger kids today. He said also the kids today that are much thicker more and muscled up would have fouled out then because they couldn't play the physical game they do now. They would had learn to play with more finesse and quickness which being that muscled up would be problem. But getting back to my son I started to think in small class b schools large number of kids fit the description of my son not and if we your going to compete if it takes larger and taller more physical players today that may be the reason today it takes so many kids to have a basketball program. How many more of the kids have lost interest if only way to compete is to be bigger and stronger to play basketball. If your smaller player then you have to be in the top percentile in quickness and speed to play and then you still don't are more of perimeter player. I started to see what he meant and looking at the past I saw difference in the game and maybe that's why we have less interest from kids and it gets so hard to get enough participation like we had in the past. I look locally I can see why kids numbers for basketball are down and they are out for other sports like hockey where I see more of better smaller athletes are competing. I may be wrong but I like to hear other opinions on this and before you say anything go back and look on you tube some class b basketball of 70 and 80's on you tube to see the difference in the game. Then look at some the last few years look at the kids and how the game is played. I know that I being smaller player wouldn't have faired very well today. The charm of class b basketball was it wasn't best basketball played but it was competitive and competition overall was pretty close there was some exceptional teams and players but overall it was bunch of kids that played for your home town and it was fun to see how much these could develop during a season and when season was done they went on to another sport or went back to working on farms etc,
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Re: Is the jury in yet?

Postby ProV1X » Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:48 am

I had a conversation with a parent of a player last week at a game. He stated that he has not seen 1 offensive charge call all season and he has been to over 30 games. I dont recall seeing any charges called either, just offensive fouls for shoving with their forearm or lowering the shoulder and knocking people over. I think it has taken away the incentive to play smart defense and take a charge when an offensive player is constantly driving to the basket out of control. I was thinking this when the parent commented on it, so in my opinion the coaches need to tell the kids to get out of the way instead of trying to take a charge outside of that arc. Not worth the defensive foul and taking the hit.
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Re: Is the jury in yet?

Postby d_fense » Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:46 am

ProV1X wrote:I had a conversation with a parent of a player last week at a game. He stated that he has not seen 1 offensive charge call all season and he has been to over 30 games. I dont recall seeing any charges called either, just offensive fouls for shoving with their forearm or lowering the shoulder and knocking people over. I think it has taken away the incentive to play smart defense and take a charge when an offensive player is constantly driving to the basket out of control. I was thinking this when the parent commented on it, so in my opinion the coaches need to tell the kids to get out of the way instead of trying to take a charge outside of that arc. Not worth the defensive foul and taking the hit.


I have seen a number of charges called. What I do not like is that to me it seems that officials are only looking at where defenders feet are, and not if defenders are in legal guarding position before contact is made. Many officials also do not seem to have a grasp of the fact that the new line is for secondary defenders only. When teams play zone defenses, it really seems to cause issues for officials. I saw an official tell a coach the middle man in a 2-3 zone was not the primary defender on the block, off of a pass in from the corner..... The coach didn't know how to respond with such a utter lack of common knowledge.
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Re: Is the jury in yet?

Postby The Schwab » Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:39 pm

Mercy rule is ok, not great but not bad either. The arc, just because there is contact in the arc doesn't mean it automatically has to be a block, it could be a no call. The officials don't understand primary defender either, but that's a whole different matter. I have a question for anyone that may know, does the no charge circle extend all the way to the baseline or does it stop at the backboard?
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Re: Is the jury in yet?

Postby ReadyToPlay » Tue Feb 28, 2017 1:43 pm

That's a good question. Apparently since it doesn't continue down to the baseline, you probably can plow through and get the offensive foul as there is no arc to protect you. I guess now the defensive player will get his due as he is playing good old school defense of shuffling and protecting the baseline like we were taught in the 70's. I get a kick of how the majority of the players now a days just let them by the baseline and then try to manhandle them by blocking their shot when they come around. We would have been benched for giving them the baseline back the hey day. Since I am on my soapbox: Another irritating thing now a days, is on a out of bounds plays under the basket, I have seen time and time again, the defense (if playing man to man), has no sense to switch to a zone for the play to protect the basket----I guess they must like getting picked off on a elementary screen for an easy basket.
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Re: Is the jury in yet?

Postby tmd33643 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:02 pm

ReadyToPlay wrote: Since I am on my soapbox: Another irritating thing now a days, is on a out of bounds plays under the basket, I have seen time and time again, the defense (if playing man to man), has no sense to switch to a zone for the play to protect the basket----I guess they must like getting picked off on a elementary screen for an easy basket.


I am a coach. I don't think it matter if you play zone or man-2-man defense as long as you know how to play good defense. I actually prefer man-2-man over zone on end line plays. And you can easily score on a zone defense too if you know how to play. You just need to know how to play the game and coach your team accordingly.

I'm not an old-timer so I don't know how the game was played back then but I certainly liked it as a player when games were not called so tightly. And I am a small guy too but that didn't prevent me from loving basketball and being able to compete against the bigger guys.
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Re: Is the jury in yet?

Postby NodakQ2 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:57 pm

ReadyToPlay wrote:That's a good question. Apparently since it doesn't continue down to the baseline, you probably can plow through and get the offensive foul as there is no arc to protect you. I guess now the defensive player will get his due as he is playing good old school defense of shuffling and protecting the baseline like we were taught in the 70's. I get a kick of how the majority of the players now a days just let them by the baseline and then try to manhandle them by blocking their shot when they come around. We would have been benched for giving them the baseline back the hey day. Since I am on my soapbox: Another irritating thing now a days, is on a out of bounds plays under the basket, I have seen time and time again, the defense (if playing man to man), has no sense to switch to a zone for the play to protect the basket----I guess they must like getting picked off on a elementary screen for an easy basket.


I agree with everything about this post...especially the man to man on out of bounds under the basket. Time and time again I watch teams get BURNED trying to play man in this situation. And the "giving them the baseline" thing, hoping for week side help drives me nuts. If we EVER gave up the baseline, we were riding pine. The 80's were no different from the '70's...
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Re: Is the jury in yet?

Postby sportsnut5 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 2:52 pm

There is a huge difference in philosophy concerning man defense principles. Many coaches us man to man principles that actually state to not give up the middle drive and rotate and help on baseline drives. This does go against what was taught in the 1900's, but I would say a vast majority of college coaches teach this style of defense. Your pack line defensive gurus take away the baseline, but most other man to man philosophies take away the middle drive. On a middle drive, yes there is help, but there are so many options to pass the ball to open players. The baseline drive is a very bad place to be if the defensive team knows how to trap and rotate. This style takes a lot of practice and a lot of shell drill, but is extremely effective if done properly. If teams give up the baseline for scores they are not drilled enough on the help and rotations of the defense.
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Re: Is the jury in yet?

Postby packers21 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 4:26 pm

sportsnut5 wrote:There is a huge difference in philosophy concerning man defense principles. Many coaches us man to man principles that actually state to not give up the middle drive and rotate and help on baseline drives. This does go against what was taught in the 1900's, but I would say a vast majority of college coaches teach this style of defense. Your pack line defensive gurus take away the baseline, but most other man to man philosophies take away the middle drive. On a middle drive, yes there is help, but there are so many options to pass the ball to open players. The baseline drive is a very bad place to be if the defensive team knows how to trap and rotate. This style takes a lot of practice and a lot of shell drill, but is extremely effective if done properly. If teams give up the baseline for scores they are not drilled enough on the help and rotations of the defense.


Exactly!
It is a little harder to motivate kids I guess because they’ve been pampered so much. We’re in the trophy generation, give ‘em a trophy for 23rd place, make ‘em feel good. Make mom and dad feel good.” Tom Izzo, Michigan State Basketball
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Re: Is the jury in yet?

Postby Bisonguy06 » Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:36 pm

Seven districts are proposing changes to the mercy rule at the March NDHSAA District Chairperson's meeting, and six of them specifically call for the clock to stop during free throws in the 4th quarter. I predict that that's the one change that you'll see for 2017-18.

https://ndhsaa.com/board/meetings
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Re: Is the jury in yet?

Postby heimer » Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:49 pm

Nope, the jury is not in. We need DNA testing on the eggs.
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Re: Is the jury in yet?

Postby NodakQ2 » Thu Mar 02, 2017 9:31 pm

sportsnut5 wrote:There is a huge difference in philosophy concerning man defense principles. Many coaches us man to man principles that actually state to not give up the middle drive and rotate and help on baseline drives. This does go against what was taught in the 1900's, but I would say a vast majority of college coaches teach this style of defense. Your pack line defensive gurus take away the baseline, but most other man to man philosophies take away the middle drive. On a middle drive, yes there is help, but there are so many options to pass the ball to open players. The baseline drive is a very bad place to be if the defensive team knows how to trap and rotate. This style takes a lot of practice and a lot of shell drill, but is extremely effective if done properly. If teams give up the baseline for scores they are not drilled enough on the help and rotations of the defense.


I would add that yes, it is effective at the college level, but it is RARELY done correctly at the HS Class B level in ND. Much like the "4 Out" Offense. Great at the college level, not so great at the Class B level. Just because something is a great "philosophy" at the college level doesn't make it great at the Class B level. Some of these things requires superior athleticism from 5 kids to execute correctly. Rarely does a Class B team have 5 super athletic kids on the floor at one time, making executing some of these great philosophies almost impossible no matter how much you practice it at this level. Fundamentals will take you further that philosophies.
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Re: Is the jury in yet?

Postby sportsnut5 » Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:10 pm

So forcing middle is a fundamental? No that would be a philosophy. And no, you don't have to be better athletically to execute a defensive rotation. You just have to be well coached. Ball moves, you move. Pretty simple. Plug the middle worked well until a 3 point line was installed. Now drive middle, collapse the defense and have any outlet to a 3 point shot. Does not work great in today''s game.
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Re: Is the jury in yet?

Postby sportsnut5 » Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:22 pm

If you push baseline, you focus practice time on rotations. If you push middle, you better focus practice time in closeouts. 20 footers are no longer worth 2 points.
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Re: Is the jury in yet?

Postby d_fense » Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:25 pm

Sports nut, you are spot on in your last 2 posts.
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Re: Is the jury in yet?

Postby NodakQ2 » Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:32 pm

sportsnut5 wrote:So forcing middle is a fundamental? No that would be a philosophy. And no, you don't have to be better athletically to execute a defensive rotation. You just have to be well coached. Ball moves, you move. Pretty simple. Plug the middle worked well until a 3 point line was installed. Now drive middle, collapse the defense and have any outlet to a 3 point shot. Does not work great in today''s game.


I watch a ton of B basketball and as soon as I see your rotation start being executed correctly I'll be a believer at this level. Until then I guess we'll just continue watching guys giving up the baseline and the offense shooting layups. I'd take my chances on guys shoting 3's vs. layups any day. Again, I don't disagree with the philosophy but until it starts being executed correctly, I'd shut down the layup.

This thread has made me realize something. It's not the "philosophy" that drives me nuts, it's the lack of execution of a philosophy that should work that drives me nuts. And it happens all too often. Thanks for that sportsnut5...carry on.
Last edited by NodakQ2 on Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is the jury in yet?

Postby d_fense » Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:44 pm

NodakQ2 wrote:
sportsnut5 wrote:So forcing middle is a fundamental? No that would be a philosophy. And no, you don't have to be better athletically to execute a defensive rotation. You just have to be well coached. Ball moves, you move. Pretty simple. Plug the middle worked well until a 3 point line was installed. Now drive middle, collapse the defense and have any outlet to a 3 point shot. Does not work great in today''s game.


I watch a ton of B basketball and as soon as I see your rotation start being executed correctly I'll be a believer at this level. Until then I guess we'll just continue watching guys giving up the baseline and the offense shooting layups. I'd take my chances on guys shoting 3's vs. layups any day. Again, I don't disagree with the philosophy but until it starts being executed correctly, I'd shut down the layup.


Name one Class B team that teaches their defense to keep the driver out of the middle and to funnel it baseline??? Not one that I know of. Not that there are not a few. However, Class A west region teams almost exclusively teach this, with great success. It is spreading and will replace the old don't let them go baseline. It is not difficult, it does not take great athletes, and is successful.
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Re: Is the jury in yet?

Postby sportsnut5 » Fri Mar 03, 2017 12:08 am

It does not take great athletes, but it does take great feeder programs. The best time to teach it is during elementary and junior high. Too many programs focus on winning at that level. Both philosophies can be successful, but good coaching is key. Most Class B schools do not have quality coaches at the lower levels. Often times they are parents who volunteer their time because there are no other options. They mean well, but often times have priorities that are not program building in mentality.
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Re: Is the jury in yet?

Postby ProV1X » Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:47 am

We have been to more than 20 state Class B basketball tournaments in North Dakota. This was one of the most disappointing. The Alerus is not a good venue for basketball. The crowds are so far from the court and you have to go up and down stairs and bleachers to get to concessions etc. Not convenient for a fan at all. I really enjoy the city of Grand Forks, but each time we visited a restaurant they had no idea the tournament was going on. At the Pub at the CanadInn connected to the Alerus, they ran out of several different types of beverage before Saturday evening. Just those types of things are so different than all the welcome specials, signs and treatment you get from Bismarck for sure and Minot to an extent. Grand Forks didnt seem to care that there were a lot of basketball fans in town and they shouldnt host Class B boys or girls again IMO.
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Re: Is the jury in yet?

Postby Sportsrube » Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:14 am

ProV1X wrote:We have been to more than 20 state Class B basketball tournaments in North Dakota. This was one of the most disappointing. The Alerus is not a good venue for basketball. The crowds are so far from the court and you have to go up and down stairs and bleachers to get to concessions etc. Not convenient for a fan at all. I really enjoy the city of Grand Forks, but each time we visited a restaurant they had no idea the tournament was going on. At the Pub at the CanadInn connected to the Alerus, they ran out of several different types of beverage before Saturday evening. Just those types of things are so different than all the welcome specials, signs and treatment you get from Bismarck for sure and Minot to an extent. Grand Forks didnt seem to care that there were a lot of basketball fans in town and they shouldnt host Class B boys or girls again IMO.


You are 100% right, but the powers that be don't care. They will continue to put Class B State basketball tournaments in Grand Forks and Fargo in football stadiums and in towns that really don't care about Class B.
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Re: Is the jury in yet?

Postby Rivershark » Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:22 am

ProV1X wrote:We have been to more than 20 state Class B basketball tournaments in North Dakota. This was one of the most disappointing. The Alerus is not a good venue for basketball. The crowds are so far from the court and you have to go up and down stairs and bleachers to get to concessions etc. Not convenient for a fan at all. I really enjoy the city of Grand Forks, but each time we visited a restaurant they had no idea the tournament was going on. At the Pub at the CanadInn connected to the Alerus, they ran out of several different types of beverage before Saturday evening. Just those types of things are so different than all the welcome specials, signs and treatment you get from Bismarck for sure and Minot to an extent. Grand Forks didnt seem to care that there were a lot of basketball fans in town and they shouldnt host Class B boys or girls again IMO.


I think you're always going to see this in GF and Fargo (although Fargo would have been better than GF). When you have the big universities, it's just natural that they are going get all the attention. The Alerus is terrible for basketball. Was it just me, or did it seem like some of the girl's may have been confused on which 3 point line to shoot behind. Lots of long shots taken. The Alerus made pizza for our hospitality room. The pizza was burnt and tasted like it was sitting in a warmer all day. The Canad Inn has much better food, but they don't cross lines with the Alerus. To get concessions, you had to walk up to the second level. NDHSAA needs to have guidelines for hosting a state tournament. These teams deserve the best when it comes to the state tournament.
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Re: Is the jury in yet?

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:31 am

Rivershark wrote:
ProV1X wrote:We have been to more than 20 state Class B basketball tournaments in North Dakota. This was one of the most disappointing. The Alerus is not a good venue for basketball. The crowds are so far from the court and you have to go up and down stairs and bleachers to get to concessions etc. Not convenient for a fan at all. I really enjoy the city of Grand Forks, but each time we visited a restaurant they had no idea the tournament was going on. At the Pub at the CanadInn connected to the Alerus, they ran out of several different types of beverage before Saturday evening. Just those types of things are so different than all the welcome specials, signs and treatment you get from Bismarck for sure and Minot to an extent. Grand Forks didnt seem to care that there were a lot of basketball fans in town and they shouldnt host Class B boys or girls again IMO.


I think you're always going to see this in GF and Fargo (although Fargo would have been better than GF). When you have the big universities, it's just natural that they are going get all the attention. The Alerus is terrible for basketball. Was it just me, or did it seem like some of the girl's may have been confused on which 3 point line to shoot behind. Lots of long shots taken. The Alerus made pizza for our hospitality room. The pizza was burnt and tasted like it was sitting in a warmer all day. The Canad Inn has much better food, but they don't cross lines with the Alerus. To get concessions, you had to walk up to the second level. NDHSAA needs to have guidelines for hosting a state tournament. These teams deserve the best when it comes to the state tournament.


If it was State Hockey...the city of Grand Forks would have done it all to have the best atmosphere (Hockey Town); Fargo cares more than GF....however, no cities care about hosting a B Tournament more than Bismarck & Minot! Football & Hockey belong in GF and/or Fargo...but not Basketball or Volleyball!
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Re: Is the jury in yet?

Postby scc » Mon Mar 06, 2017 12:07 pm

At least the tournament is in Minot next year.
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Re: Is the jury in yet?

Postby heimer » Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:16 pm

Volleyball absolutely not cool in Minot and should never go there ever again.

That tournament is small enough to go back to Jamestown.
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