New 30 Point Mercy Rule

Class B Girls
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Re: New 30 Point Mercy Rule

Postby ninja_joe » Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:48 am

Seen this rule in effect three different times now. The only complaints that I have heard about it seems to be on this message board. Fans definitely do not want to sit through an extended blow out. The team that is down 30+ points certainly doesn't want to keep taking a pounding.

It is only the 4th quarter we are talking here too. Anyone complaining about getting their reserves in during that time--for the most part, all of these kids already played a 4 quarter game in the JV game prior to the varsity game. They saw their floor time--otherwise they wouldn't be sitting the bench til the 4th. And they probably are playing the same kids they played in the JV game. Usually what happens. We all know this.

I like the rule, especially the fact it only happens in the 4th quarter. Smart move & one that should have been implemented sooner.
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Re: New 30 Point Mercy Rule

Postby Rivershark » Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:36 pm

ninja_joe wrote:Seen this rule in effect three different times now. The only complaints that I have heard about it seems to be on this message board. Fans definitely do not want to sit through an extended blow out. The team that is down 30+ points certainly doesn't want to keep taking a pounding.

It is only the 4th quarter we are talking here too. Anyone complaining about getting their reserves in during that time--for the most part, all of these kids already played a 4 quarter game in the JV game prior to the varsity game. They saw their floor time--otherwise they wouldn't be sitting the bench til the 4th. And they probably are playing the same kids they played in the JV game. Usually what happens. We all know this.

I like the rule, especially the fact it only happens in the 4th quarter. Smart move & one that should have been implemented sooner.


Since you mentioned it, lets take it a step further and say that the fans would prefer that their teams not even play these teams. The problem is that the teams don't have a choice on who they play especially if they are in their district or region. Why not allow a little more flexibility on letting teams schedule a more competitive schedule. I know for a fact that one of the top teams in the state this year offered to play their JV players rather than have a blow out. The answer was no. Trust me, the fans of these teams that are kicking butt would prefer to not even play these teams. The mercy rule punishes both teams. The kids want to play and the only thing the mercy rule does is take away playing time. Please explain to me and others how making the game go quicker is a good thing?
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Re: New 30 Point Mercy Rule

Postby ninja_joe » Fri Dec 16, 2016 2:10 pm

In all Class B basketball districts in ND, all teams are required to play each other at least once. In many of those districts, teams DO have the option to play a team with their JV or their varsity. If a team chooses to play a team with their JV, that game counts as a varsity game & goes towards the district standings. Play at your own risk if you are worried about district standings. Many teams in our area of the state will play a weaker district opponent who they know they will beat by 40pts with their JV's knowing this. It allows them to schedule a better opponent for a varsity game. District by-laws govern this rule throughout the state.

There is no state rule stating that you must play a team's varsity with your varsity.

So I agree, schedule a better team if you can. Play the weaker ones with your JV's. If the district has a rule about this, coaches/AD's simply need to change it at their district meeting. If they don't, then it isn't a problem to them. They have the power to do that if they wish.

Most teams only play 8 kids. As I mentioned, the rest of the team making out the varsity just played in the JV game prior to the varsity game. When these kids that are 9-15 (if team is that deep) get in, they are typically playing many of the same kids they just played in the JV game.

The mercy rule is a good idea & in each of the three times it has happened this year, I have not heard anything negative about it.
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Re: New 30 Point Mercy Rule

Postby Bisonguy06 » Sat Dec 17, 2016 12:55 pm

Just one man's opinion here:

There's a bit of a contradiction here in what you are saying.

I'm hearing that the best way to make these lopsided games competitive is for the stronger team's JV girls to play more minutes against the weaker team's varsity. And I agree. The problem with the mercy rule is that it chews up all of these more competitive minutes with those two units on the floor.

Keep in mind that the JV game that you're referring to was likely non-competitive as well (and may have been shortened by the mercy rule). Those JV starters were likely yanked early in the name of mercy. Or, depending on the opponent, the C or JV or both games may have been dropped altogether. (This is becoming all too common).

Whatever the good intentions may be, you have to at least acknowledge that players are being robbed of minutes here. Though spectators may get restless, we play these games for the growth of student-athletes. Every minute of every game is a teachable moment, and all competitors can be taught to play hard to the final buzzer, regardless of the score.

Please note here that I did not advocate the stronger team 'running up the score' or anything of the sort. Go deep into your bench, pull the press, slow the pace, and work the shot clock. That's coaching 101. Give coaches this opportunity rather than handcuffing them with the mercy rule, and most of them will do the right thing. We don't have to pack it in and go home early.
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Re: New 30 Point Mercy Rule

Postby Flip » Sat Dec 17, 2016 1:19 pm

Bisonguy06, great post.

For the fans that really need those 5 extra minutes from the mercy rule my tip to you is don't go.
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Re: New 30 Point Mercy Rule

Postby Sportsrube » Sat Dec 17, 2016 7:36 pm

Bisonguy06 wrote:Just one man's opinion here:



Please note here that I did not advocate the stronger team 'running up the score' or anything of the sort. Go deep into your bench, pull the press, slow the pace, and work the shot clock. That's coaching 101. Give coaches this opportunity rather than handcuffing them with the mercy rule, and most of them will do the right thing. We don't have to pack it in and go home early.


Great post Bisonguy06 and I agree with you. Unfortunately a couple of coaches don't get it and so because a few idiot coaches "run up" the score the NDHSAA over reacts and we are stuck with this mercy rule. Hopefully they will at least tweak it a bit for next season, but I have zero confidence in the NDHSAA.
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Re: New 30 Point Mercy Rule

Postby madseason » Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:05 pm

wan2bqb wrote:8) I agree the rule has to be tweaked if they insist on legislating morality. They (district chairs) should just have a meeting and discuss the running up the score issue. And don't think that coaches don't remember who runs up the score on them or on other teams when one of those programs has an off year. Karma as they say is a b*tch
I attended a game earlier this year and three fouls wear committed after the mercy rule and those three fouls and the substitutions after both the first free throw and the second ran over 5 min off the clock. It did have the extended effect of keeping scoring down. Under 20 points scored in the fourth by both teams combined. Hate the rule not the intent. You cannot legislate morality. Coaches should do the right thing, you have a bench and a shot clock, use it! Call off the pressure, use the time to run your offense and work on the things you need to for later in the season. In other words COACH! Valuable time for young kids or even older kids that don't see the court much. You may need them to have game time experience come the end of the year. Just my thoughts.
I think you are 100% right. My two cents, I think a three class system would fix this IMO.
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Re: New 30 Point Mercy Rule

Postby d_fense » Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:34 pm

I have seen applied in 4 games so far this year. I'm not liking it. I do need to be more educated. I get it starts at 30 points in the 4th quarter. How close does it need to get before clock resumes normal operation? One thing that bothers me is free throws. If it is a 30+ game you are likely at least in the bonus, if not the double. Two fouls, if you need to go to the other end to shoot, sub after the first, sub for the shooter, can run 3 minutes off a clock.

One of the running clock situations that I watched went under 30 points. A player on the team that was behind was upset and got after the clock keeper to stop the clock on a free throw situation. There would be no need to ask them what they think of the "mercy rule". They wanted to play.
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Re: New 30 Point Mercy Rule

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:54 pm

Once it reaches 30...clock doesn't stop (except time outs and/or injuries)
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Re: New 30 Point Mercy Rule

Postby d_fense » Fri Dec 23, 2016 1:07 pm

Run4Fun2009 wrote:Once it reaches 30...clock doesn't stop (except time outs and/or injuries)

Even if the score get to even? It is unlikely but stranger things have happened.
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Re: New 30 Point Mercy Rule

Postby scc » Fri Dec 23, 2016 1:26 pm

The clock never returns to normal once the mercy rule is in effect.
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Re: New 30 Point Mercy Rule

Postby Flip » Fri Dec 23, 2016 11:45 pm

d_fense wrote:Even if the score get to even? It is unlikely but stranger things have happened.


you can think of a few times when a HS team has come back from 30?
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Re: New 30 Point Mercy Rule

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Sat Dec 24, 2016 2:34 am

Flip wrote:
d_fense wrote:Even if the score get to even? It is unlikely but stranger things have happened.


you can think of a few times when a HS team has come back from 30?


down 30 points with 8:00 to go...I can only think of one game where that happened in my life; I've seen a few more down 30 in the 1st half and that team ended up having to battle at the end.
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Re: New 30 Point Mercy Rule

Postby tmd33643 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:26 pm

I am a JV coach this year. I do think this rule would be better at 35 or 40 points. I do think good coaches prevent the scores from being too lopsided. In some way though, I still like it as some teams can't match up and even good coaching can't prevent some lopsided scores even if you do tell your team to walk the ball up, don't press, run the shot clock down, put your subs in, etc. You still want your team to play good basketball. And you still want your starters to get some playing experience. But I have experienced the mercy rule in 2 of my games this year so far and the time does fly by (1st time my team was losing by 30 and the next time my team was ahead by 30). You barely get to play at that point. But I still like the rule as at that point, it's better to get the game done with. Perhaps my opinion would change if my team consistently got beat by 30 so my players lost a lot of playing time but it does struggle and sometimes it's nice just getting the game over with. I coached 7th and 8th grade boys last year and my teams got beat by 30 or more in half of my games. Wish we had the mercy rule last year.

I saw some previous comments about putting the parochial schools into class A. That wouldn't solve anything. From I've seen, parochial schools do a better job of not running up the score compared to what they could. Actually I think it would be worse as class A would run up the score on the smaller parochial schools. And there would still be some lopsided scores from games like New Town against Williston trinity christian (103 - 13).
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Re: New 30 Point Mercy Rule

Postby madseason » Mon Jan 30, 2017 1:26 pm

Bisonguy06 wrote:Just one man's opinion here:

There's a bit of a contradiction here in what you are saying.

I'm hearing that the best way to make these lopsided games competitive is for the stronger team's JV girls to play more minutes against the weaker team's varsity. And I agree. The problem with the mercy rule is that it chews up all of these more competitive minutes with those two units on the floor.

Keep in mind that the JV game that you're referring to was likely non-competitive as well (and may have been shortened by the mercy rule). Those JV starters were likely yanked early in the name of mercy. Or, depending on the opponent, the C or JV or both games may have been dropped altogether. (This is becoming all too common).

Whatever the good intentions may be, you have to at least acknowledge that players are being robbed of minutes here. Though spectators may get restless, we play these games for the growth of student-athletes. Every minute of every game is a teachable moment, and all competitors can be taught to play hard to the final buzzer, regardless of the score.

Please note here that I did not advocate the stronger team 'running up the score' or anything of the sort. Go deep into your bench, pull the press, slow the pace, and work the shot clock. That's coaching 101. Give coaches this opportunity rather than handcuffing them with the mercy rule, and most of them will do the right thing. We don't have to pack it in and go home early.
Agree 100% Why not just end the game if one team is ahead by 30? Cause that's what you are teaching IMO (we give up). At least stop the clock for free throws?
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Re: New 30 Point Mercy Rule

Postby The Schwab » Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:32 pm

scc wrote:The clock never returns to normal once the mercy rule is in effect.


I thought that if the score got under 20 points it would return to normal timing.
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Re: New 30 Point Mercy Rule

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Mon Jan 30, 2017 3:13 pm

The Schwab wrote:
scc wrote:The clock never returns to normal once the mercy rule is in effect.


I thought that if the score got under 20 points it would return to normal timing.


Nope...MN has it as Running at 35 with 9 or less left in game...and back to normal if returns to under 30...ND has no return to normal timing
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Re: New 30 Point Mercy Rule

Postby stir the pot » Mon Jan 30, 2017 6:15 pm

So what happens when the clock is running down to zero and some one is shooting a free throw.
What I saw the clock was stopped at 1 or 1/10 don't know which. The kid shot the free throw and buzzer sound
as soon as the ball hit the rim. The shot was missed.
Question is why didn't the buzzer sound and let them shot the free throw afterward?
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Re: New 30 Point Mercy Rule

Postby The Schwab » Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:57 am

They should award any un-shot free throws, even if the buzzer sounds
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Re: New 30 Point Mercy Rule

Postby Flip » Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:14 am

They are supposed to clear the lane and finish the FTs.
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Re: New 30 Point Mercy Rule

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:48 pm

Flip wrote:They are supposed to clear the lane and finish the FTs.


I've been told that once you are down under 5 seconds and FTs are awarded you are allowed to stop the clock and play it as a live FT scenario. Starting the clock on the miss or after the makes his 1 or 2 shots. (Saw this and did this in a MN game this season).
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Re: New 30 Point Mercy Rule

Postby Flip » Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:59 pm

Run4Fun2009 wrote:I've been told that once you are down under 5 seconds and FTs are awarded you are allowed to stop the clock and play it as a live FT scenario. Starting the clock on the miss or after the makes his 1 or 2 shots. (Saw this and did this in a MN game this season).

yeah, I haven't heard what you're supposed to do if it's going to hit 0 during the FTs. What I posted above was either sent out in an email to coaches or at the coach's association meeting. I can't remember. I'm old. In MN I've seen them stop the clock with a second left to shoot the FTs. In the end it makes very little difference. You're going to get to shoot the FTs and there will be no time or next to no time left on the clock.
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Re: New 30 Point Mercy Rule

Postby imjustafan » Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:45 pm

Flip wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:I've been told that once you are down under 5 seconds and FTs are awarded you are allowed to stop the clock and play it as a live FT scenario. Starting the clock on the miss or after the makes his 1 or 2 shots. (Saw this and did this in a MN game this season).

yeah, I haven't heard what you're supposed to do if it's going to hit 0 during the FTs. What I posted above was either sent out in an email to coaches or at the coach's association meeting. I can't remember. I'm old. In MN I've seen them stop the clock with a second left to shoot the FTs. In the end it makes very little difference. You're going to get to shoot the FTs and there will be no time or next to no time left on the clock.


I have not seen any instruction nor been told to stop the clock for near end of game FTs. The one time a foul was called in the last second, I was given the foul and end of game was called. Rule book states that "no free throw(s) shall be attempted after time has expired for the fourth quarter or any extra period, unless the point(s) would affect the outcome of the game" (5-6 exception 3) I would suspect that if the mercy rule was in effect, said FTs would not affect the outcome.
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Re: New 30 Point Mercy Rule

Postby Flip » Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:31 pm

what does the rule book say about a 30 point mercy rule?
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Re: New 30 Point Mercy Rule

Postby imjustafan » Wed Feb 01, 2017 7:52 pm

"State associations may individually adopt specific coverage in the following:....7. Authorizing the use of a running clock when a specified point differential is reached. (5-5 Note)" The note at rule 5-5 repeats this statement.
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