Great Class B Towns

Class B Girls
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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby Hoot12 » Mon Mar 07, 2016 12:21 pm

I am with Heimer on this one:
Compare the percentage of private school that make it to the state tournament vs. public schools.
If you think that there is going to be 1 or 2 or 3 private school in the tournament each year you fooling your self so why not just give them their own class.
Sure we can discuss school numbers and say that the private schools are small but they have excellent recruiters who find job for parents with athletic kids.
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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby Flip » Mon Mar 07, 2016 12:29 pm

Hoot12 wrote:...private schools are small but they have excellent recruiters who find job for parents with athletic kids.


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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby BasketballJunkie » Mon Mar 07, 2016 12:38 pm

Hoot12 wrote: Sure we can discuss school numbers and say that the private schools are small but they have excellent recruiters who find job for parents with athletic kids.


Well this is possibly the most ridiculous thing I have read all day.
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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby HammerTime » Mon Mar 07, 2016 1:27 pm

heimer wrote:
d_fense wrote:
heimer wrote:Bismarck is a great Class B town.

And Valley City.


Yeah, cause there is an apples to apples comparison.

Someone on Facebook told me that Ryan won 3 straight up to this year. I haven't followed it, but if true, that's a swift kick in the nuts to girls basketball.

Ready to solve this problem? This years tourney featured two privates, two former Class A schools, one that should be Class A now, one that should definitely be middle division, a 6'5" transfer from a Class A, and FCT.

But keep your two class system. Did you see the attendance? Yep, this is working well.

You sound like those two are a part of the problem. They're Rugby and Dickinson Trinity. Frankly, there's not him wrong with it. Those two have been dwindling for years. And Rugby's been Class B for 25 years.

Edit: whoops. I got confused with the teams listed. When I hear "former A," I'm assuming Grafton, especially after the privates have been called out. I'm sorry. It's a Monday.
Last edited by HammerTime on Mon Mar 07, 2016 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby Rivershark » Mon Mar 07, 2016 1:32 pm

Hoot12 wrote:I am with Heimer on this one:
Compare the percentage of private school that make it to the state tournament vs. public schools.
If you think that there is going to be 1 or 2 or 3 private school in the tournament each year you fooling your self so why not just give them their own class.
Sure we can discuss school numbers and say that the private schools are small but they have excellent recruiters who find job for parents with athletic kids.



I agree. I saw this happen in Dickinson and I know it happens in Bismarck. How many class B schools have an artificial turf baseball field?
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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby Mandan » Mon Mar 07, 2016 1:46 pm

balla45 wrote:
heimer wrote:I'm finally with you on the locales. Fargo and Grand Forks residents have put their eggs in the collegiate basket. The tournaments no longer excite them. It's only the Chamber of Commerces that want these events for the spending that goes on during the tournaments. Bismarck and Minot support them better.

As far as the classes, I'm not ready to shove all of the privates into what is currently A. That's an easy fix without any forethought. There is enough of a critical mass to construct a middle division with those schools involved, even if you borrowed from the currrent Class A level to construct it.

In a 16-16, rest scenario, with all privates that have over 100 kids "A", you'd have good, highly-competitive basketball, and that's what this should be about.

AA East:
Fargo North
Fargo South
Fargo Davies
West Fargo Sheyenne
West Fargo
Grand Forks Red River
Grand Forks Central
Jamestown

AA West:
Bismarck
Bismarck Century
Bismarck Legacy
Mandan
Dickinson
Williston
Minot
Belcourt

A East:
Wahpeton
Fargo Shanley
Valley City
Central Cass
Fargo Oak Grove
Grafton
Devils Lake
Kindred

A West:
Bismarck St Marys
Minot Ryan
Dickinson Trinity
Watford City
Hazen
Beulah
Bottineau
Carrington

Or, like I said before, leave all the current Class "A"s up and take four more to make 16 in the new "A". Either way, there's a solid class there.

We can't try this for two years? Just for two years?


I will confidently call myself one of the biggest basketball fans in ND. I like this plan a lot. Throwing all the private schools in a top class would be a bad move right now I think. With the facilities that Shiloh has, I think they will remain athletically dominant (also my pick to wins boys) for years and years in the current format. The Ryan thing was once in a generation. Shiloh will consistently be able to get the kids who can't make it in BPS that want to transfer so they can play, and they have enough talent in the SCS system where adding 1-2 players takes them from good to great. I am a Shiloh fan, but there are advantages when you compare them to a Flasher for example, who will lose a player for a job in Bismarck, a Shiloh will gain a player for a job in Bismarck.


I like this as well, it basically duplicates AA football into its own basketball class. I sat through way too many games in the 80s watching Trinity get beat 50-80 or 60-100 against schools like Bismarck High and Minot to feel that any school that size should be in class A.

And regarding all the enrollment-limiting talk, NO ONE at Trinity ever really wanted to move down to class B. If we could have had 400+ students to keep us in class A and a be little more competitive like St Mary's is, everyone would have loved that. Or if the 3 class vote that failed by only 5 votes would have passed in 1990/1991, they would have been happy being in the middle class and the small schools would have nothing to complain about. The fact of the matter is that with the Dickinson parishes being smaller than in the 60s and 70s, the churches have less money, so tuition goes up and less people can afford to send their students there. Then you wind up with a school of around 200 students losing by 30-40 points against the bigger schools. Why would anyone stay in any class in that situation if they have an option to move down?
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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby Hoot12 » Mon Mar 07, 2016 9:21 pm

I am with Heimer, look at the number of private schools vs public schools. Then look at the number of private school in the state tournament. If anyone think that there will not be 1 or 2 or 3 in state most year you fooling yourself.
Sure, there enrollment number are not that high but they do find good jobs for parents with athletic kids
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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby heimer » Tue Mar 08, 2016 9:59 am

I can't speak to the jobs for parents thing.

Here's what I know: Private schools attract achieving kids. It's kind of their job.

Girls basketball has less athletes than ever before, for numerous reasons.

In the end, privates are speaking much more loudly in girls basketball than ever, and louder than boys.

Now is the perfect time to experiment in a three-division system in girls only. There is no good reason why we can't see how this works for a couple of years.

Except for the fact that, maybe, people would like it too much and want it for boys too.
God is bigger than football.
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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby woodchuck10 » Tue Mar 08, 2016 10:28 am

heimer wrote:I'm finally with you on the locales. Fargo and Grand Forks residents have put their eggs in the collegiate basket. The tournaments no longer excite them. It's only the Chamber of Commerces that want these events for the spending that goes on during the tournaments. Bismarck and Minot support them better.

As far as the classes, I'm not ready to shove all of the privates into what is currently A. That's an easy fix without any forethought. There is enough of a critical mass to construct a middle division with those schools involved, even if you borrowed from the currrent Class A level to construct it.

In a 16-16, rest scenario, with all privates that have over 100 kids "A", you'd have good, highly-competitive basketball, and that's what this should be about.

AA East:
Fargo North
Fargo South
Fargo Davies
West Fargo Sheyenne
West Fargo
Grand Forks Red River
Grand Forks Central
Jamestown

AA West:
Bismarck
Bismarck Century
Bismarck Legacy
Mandan
Dickinson
Williston
Minot
Belcourt

A East:
Wahpeton
Fargo Shanley
Valley City
Central Cass
Fargo Oak Grove
Grafton
Devils Lake
Kindred

A West:
Bismarck St Marys
Minot Ryan
Dickinson Trinity
Watford City
Hazen
Beulah
Bottineau
Rugby

Or, like I said before, leave all the current Class "A"s up and take four more to make 16 in the new "A". Either way, there's a solid class there.

We can't try this for two years? Just for two years?


I kind of like this for a "3 class system" however instead of having 3 state tournaments they should have the top 2 teams in each Region in AA and A make one state tournament. I think a State Tournament including: Fargo Davies, Grand Forks Central, Bismarck, Belcourt, Grafton, Fargo Shanley, Rugby, and Beulah would be watched more state wide than 2 separate tournaments for AA and A.

I still like the two class we have though.
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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby scruffy » Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:34 pm

or.... we could put together an alphabet league for all those schools with three or more towns that have been combined.. An average person doesn't even know who they are anymore There will never be a perfect system and there will ALWAYS be complainers.....
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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby heimer » Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:52 pm

As I mentioned on a previous thread:

Have the tournament at a venue with two courts.

The 3 vs random draw and 4 vs 5 seed games on TV each class. Other games on other court. NDHSAA pay-per-view service is free that day for the other games.

Start the next day at 9 with two games each floor in consolation.

Then at 2 p.m., go semi semi semi semi on one floor.

Saturday, at 10 go 7th, 5th, 3rd two floors.

End with title title at 6 p.m.

It works at the A level right now, minus the first day TV coverage. This will work for the girls.
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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby triplebbb » Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:55 pm

Watford City's enrollment is projected to grow 10% per year for the next 10 years (as per demographic study). That will put WC in Class A in 2018-19. Enrollment grows but so far the number of athletes does not grow. The girls bball team had 2 players on it that have not been here most of their life (only 1 in the playing rotation). It will be hard if not impossible to compete in Class A for most sports in most years. This year's 2nd in state girls team could have "maybe" been in the top 4 in the WDA but that is a huge "maybe". I have been against a 3 class system my whole life but things are definitely different and selfishly now a middle class seems more appropriate. Self-serving?
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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby Kwoods » Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:22 pm

triplebbb wrote:Watford City's enrollment is projected to grow 10% per year for the next 10 years (as per demographic study). That will put WC in Class A in 2018-19. Enrollment grows but so far the number of athletes does not grow. The girls bball team had 2 players on it that have not been here most of their life (only 1 in the playing rotation). It will be hard if not impossible to compete in Class A for most sports in most years. This year's 2nd in state girls team could have "maybe" been in the top 4 in the WDA but that is a huge "maybe". I have been against a 3 class system my whole life but things are definitely different and selfishly now a middle class seems more appropriate. Self-serving?



Watford City didn't have any complaints all these years about how the system was set up. I find it a little funny when they were suppose to be Class A in 2016-2017 their athletic department started to head the 3 Class system set up. Why didn't they propose it or even vote (WC voted it down in the past) for the 3 class system in the past if its suppose to be better for all schools? I'm from a small school and I prefer the old school method. I'm fine with playing these bigger schools in class B towns. I would like to see the private schools that are set in Class A towns play Class A. I just hope that WC fear of playing class A doesn't ruin the 2 class system for the rest of us.
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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby triplebbb » Tue Mar 08, 2016 2:16 pm

Since when did the WC athletic dept start heading up a 3 class system? That's how rumors get started. That is why in my previous post I said it was self serving for me to support a 3 class system. Don't make comments before you know what your talking about. Wouldn't anyone sort of be worried about moving to Class A? Central Cass, Stanley, Grafton, any of the big B's?
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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby The Schwab » Tue Mar 08, 2016 2:35 pm

my feelings on the 3 class system vs 2 class system can be summed up by this. It is much easier for a school of 250 to be competitive year in and year out against a school of 1250 then it is for a school of 50 against a school of 250
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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby madseason » Tue Mar 08, 2016 3:57 pm

BasketballJunkie wrote:
Hoot12 wrote: Sure we can discuss school numbers and say that the private schools are small but they have excellent recruiters who find job for parents with athletic kids.


Well this is possibly the most ridiculous thing I have read all day.
Warroad has done this for many years in hockey. Don't think it doesn't happen.
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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby Kwoods » Tue Mar 08, 2016 4:08 pm

triplebbb wrote:Since when did the WC athletic dept start heading up a 3 class system? That's how rumors get started. That is why in my previous post I said it was self serving for me to support a 3 class system. Don't make comments before you know what your talking about. Wouldn't anyone sort of be worried about moving to Class A? Central Cass, Stanley, Grafton, any of the big B's?



Region 8 Athletic Directors met last Wednesday in Watford City to discuss their proposal for a 3 Class system. So where is the rumor??
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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby Kwoods » Tue Mar 08, 2016 4:13 pm

The Schwab wrote:my feelings on the 3 class system vs 2 class system can be summed up by this. It is much easier for a school of 250 to be competitive year in and year out against a school of 1250 then it is for a school of 50 against a school of 250



That's a great point. Change is so hard when its been this way for my entire life. Would be fun to watch if both the B and C tournaments were at same location each year so you could watch a lot of basketball. Still hard to think about it being any different way.
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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:36 pm

madseason wrote:
BasketballJunkie wrote:
Hoot12 wrote: Sure we can discuss school numbers and say that the private schools are small but they have excellent recruiters who find job for parents with athletic kids.


Well this is possibly the most ridiculous thing I have read all day.
Warroad has done this for many years in hockey. Don't think it doesn't happen.


so what you just proved with your point is that its possible to happen in both public & private schools. Yes, it happens...I won't be near-sighted about it...but don't group all in to your generalization.
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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby Flip » Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:49 pm

who pays these "recruiters?" I just took a look at Warroad's staff directory and didn't find any recruiters.
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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby canoworms » Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:59 pm

Flip wrote:who pays these "recruiters?" I just took a look at Warroad's staff directory and didn't find any recruiters.


They are invisible and they get paid cash under the table.
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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby go maji » Wed Mar 09, 2016 2:02 am

Flip wrote:who pays these "recruiters?" I just took a look at Warroad's staff directory and didn't find any recruiters.


Have you ever heard of coaches?
I doubt he was recruited, but one of Ryans best players used to go to public middle school in Minot until he transferred. He was a promising young player that I don't feel like getting too much in to. Or banned for.
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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby Sorenson23 » Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:31 am

Putting all private schools like Shiloh, Trinity, Ryan, etc. in their own class at least. The argument I'm making is these three schools shouldn't be in Class B. I'm switching topics for a moment. Now just this last season I had a comment in football saying Shiloh shouldn't 9 Man they should be 11 man. And someone said Central McLean is bigger than Shiloh they should be 11 man. If Central McLean would drop the co-op Shiloh would be way bigger they school alone is twice the size of their's. An to set another example the differences between football and basketball. Minot, Williston, Grand Forks, Fargo, Dickinson , & Bismarck are all class A towns. For example Minot Ryan & Minot High are Class A & AAA respectively in football. Minot Ryan class B in basketball Minot High basketball Class A. Same scenario goes for the other cities. Trinity class AA in football & class B in basketball. Now Bismarck they have three schools that are AAA in football BHS, Century, Legacy basketball their class A. St.Mary's class AA in football & basketball class A and now Shiloh 9 man for football Class B for basketball. If these schools want to recruit class A players then they should be considered either Class A or in different Class by themselves. Bring back Class C for are the private schools. The enrollment should be the entire school now just 7-12 or 9-12 grade. And one more explain how some of these smaller schools like Underwood, Hazen, Beulah, Drake-Anamoose just to name a few are suppose to recruit players if these schools like Shiloh, Trinity, Ryan, etc are in this bigger cities.
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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby lovwatchingsports » Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:15 am

Five privates in the finals in the boys regionals.
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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby washed_up » Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:49 am

The only reason there are five private schools in the regional finals is because they work harder than the lazy kids from the smaller stand-alone towns. They definitely don't have an advantage and it is purely a coincidence that this happens year after year in both boys and girls. Fargo Oak Grove is playing in the regional championship game for the fourth straight year. If they had an advantage wouldn't they be playing in their sixth or seventh? It is also purely coincidental that it happens in every region that has a private school in a large city. Definitely no advantages.
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