66-6

Class B Girls
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66-6

Postby heimer » Tue Dec 15, 2015 11:37 am

See 85-15 for comments on lack of class and dignity. Enrollment comments probably don't apply. Zone, shotclock, coaching, and parents comments do.
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Re: 66-6

Postby Flip » Tue Dec 15, 2015 12:04 pm

please ban
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Re: 66-6

Postby Flying Wallenda » Tue Dec 15, 2015 12:35 pm

heimer wrote:See 85-15 for comments on lack of class and dignity. Enrollment comments probably don't apply. Zone, shotclock, coaching, and parents comments do.


Only 1 question - were you at either game? Yes or No
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Re: 66-6

Postby heimer » Tue Dec 15, 2015 12:53 pm

Yeah, mods, ban me when the going gets tough.

Don't need to be at a game. The score is eyebrow-raising enough.

This board is a B-and-west-region slanted board. Always has been, always will be. Grow a pair and take on some tough topics.

If these scores absolutely cannot be prevented (for the purposes of this thread, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt), then give me a solution. I know balla45 thinks this is the NBA and we should be able to bludgeon anyone we want to death by any amount possible. How he got to be a mod is beyond me, but whatever.

It's not the NBA. It's high school basketball.

Is it schools that should not have teams? If so, time to force some consolidations.

Is it the clock that doesn't die fast enough? If so, lets run the clock. MN has a running clock rule, and we have mercy rules in FB, HKY, and BB. Volleyball's length is directly determined by the score, sort of a built-in mercy rule. Why not basketball?

If you're not willing to discuss either or both, we're left with schools to police themselves, and they're doing a terrible job of it.

Go ahead, ban it. Your loss, not mine.
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Re: 66-6

Postby The Schwab » Tue Dec 15, 2015 1:11 pm

I am in favor of the running clock rule for high school basketball. In class B north dakota (especially in girls basketball) the difference between good teams and struggling teams in very large. Unfortunately, I have a feeling we are going to see a lot of scores like this on the girls side. I don't feel that this is an attempt to intentionally humiliate the other team.

We also have to remember that we shouldn't punish the teams and players who put in time in the off season to get better. It's not their fault that they work their tails off to get better. So many times in our society now days we punish the top 10 percent (especially in schools) by focusing a majority of our time, money and resources on the struggling portion of our population.

Just because a team/player puts in all the time and effort in the off-season to get better doesn't mean they should only be allowed to play half of the game or less.

Watford City is in a traditionally weak region, they are a very strong team. They play multiple teams with their JV in order to avoid scores like this the best they can. They are trying to win a state championship, not make other teams feel good about themselves.

I have coached in a game where my team got beat by a worse score then this game. Do I blame the other coach? Do I think they tried to run up the score? Did I feel sorry for myself or my team? The answer to all of these questions is NO. If they would have played the way they practiced and wanted to play when they faced tough competition they would have beat us 120-under 10. Would I have blamed them for that? Not at all
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Re: 66-6

Postby Flying Wallenda » Tue Dec 15, 2015 1:36 pm

heimer wrote:Yeah, mods, ban me when the going gets tough.

Don't need to be at a game. The score is eyebrow-raising enough.

This board is a B-and-west-region slanted board. Always has been, always will be. Grow a pair and take on some tough topics.

If these scores absolutely cannot be prevented (for the purposes of this thread, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt), then give me a solution. I know balla45 thinks this is the NBA and we should be able to bludgeon anyone we want to death by any amount possible. How he got to be a mod is beyond me, but whatever.

It's not the NBA. It's high school basketball.

Is it schools that should not have teams? If so, time to force some consolidations.

Is it the clock that doesn't die fast enough? If so, lets run the clock. MN has a running clock rule, and we have mercy rules in FB, HKY, and BB. Volleyball's length is directly determined by the score, sort of a built-in mercy rule. Why not basketball?

If you're not willing to discuss either or both, we're left with schools to police themselves, and they're doing a terrible job of it.

Go ahead, ban it. Your loss, not mine.

If you weren't there, all of your comments are only speculation.
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Re: 66-6

Postby Flip » Tue Dec 15, 2015 1:49 pm

heimer wrote:This board is a B-and-west-region slanted board. Always has been, always will be. Grow a pair and take on some tough topics.
...
If you're not willing to discuss either or both, we're left with schools to police themselves, and they're doing a terrible job of it.

What is there to discuss? According you you're right and everyone else is wrong. You have zero flexibility when it comes to this. It makes it difficult for discussion.

For the most part I won't draw conclusions on a coach's class unless I see the game for myself.

A few seasons back Ada-Borup was up 59-0 against Mahnomen in the FIRST HALF. After the game Mahnomen coach goes on the radio and the first thing he does is thank the AB coach for having class because he could have made it a lot worse.

heimer wrote:MN has a running clock rule...

This isn't a horrible rule, but I never liked it. Every minute of a basketball is a chance to get better whether you're a lot better than the other team or a lot worse.
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Re: 66-6

Postby B-oldtimer » Tue Dec 15, 2015 2:03 pm

I don't understand why a coach would run score up like this against another team it was not what I was taught by coaches when I played. When we played if we had a team like this down the subs played most of the game and we had strict rules on offense to what we would shoot as subs. Like we had to make so many passes and the ball had to be put up in the paint including one time to half of the paint. Also we played solid defense but not pressing defense meaning would deny good shots. I can here some you this goes against natural play but what do learn playing against weaker talent running the score up. All I know now I have seen to much of this trying to run the score up in games and it makes me angry. This was unwritten rule never to run the score up and like our coach said some day it might be us with the lesser talent.
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Re: 66-6

Postby heimer » Tue Dec 15, 2015 2:10 pm

So, I got an email from a member of the Larimore 2003 28-0 team that says she and her team asked their school district for the chance to play Class A schools, and the district refused the request.

Here's a solution (assuming your explanation that every coach has class and there's an actual reason to win 66-6, which I wholeheartedly reject):

1. Trash ND's archaic scheduling rules and allow Class A teams to play 25 regular season games, with the +6 being allocated for matchups with Class B teams.

2. Let Class B teams do the WDA hockey thing and play the weaker opponents with JV teams so they can take some of the extra Class A games.

This would curb some of the lop-sided matchups were seeing right now.

Okay, so now I'll hear about not being able to go 28-0 and enter the books, and I'll hear about travel and every crap excuse in the world I always here. Truth be told, the games wouldn't be scheduled because the B's would be worried about making a class for a middle division by beating A schools, so they'd just not accept the scheduling and keep beating teams 66-6.
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Re: 66-6

Postby ninja_joe » Tue Dec 15, 2015 2:29 pm

There definitely should be a mercy rule. The basketball advisory committee did visit the issue. Why on earth they didnt implement one is anyone's guess. MT & MN both use it. Get up 40pts clock runs. Only stops on a time out.

66-6 and 85-15 are a little lopsided to say the least. I think Watford City wanted to put it in the eyes of the basketball fan/media out there that they are the real deal. Whenever they do play a weaker opponent though, they do play their JV quite a bit.

I do disagree with the comment the WC comes from a weak region though. There have been some very quality teams in recent years who have competed quite well state wide. When it comes to WC, remember this is a class b high school that has around 165 girls or so in grades 9-12. They probably should dominate schools like Richardton-Taylor who maybe have 30 or so girls to make up a team. Its an incredibly unfair advantage that big schools like WC have in class B. I think they cut ties with Alexander & Johnsons Corners in their co-ops so they squeaked by the enrollment cut off of 325 high school kids by being at 322. WC could have had the option to play class A next year if they chose to do so. Of course, they wouldnt though as being the largest B school, they have a good shot to do well.

Managing the scores in the current system falls on the coaching staff when there is a mismatch. I have never believed in the need to beat someone by as many as you can to make a point.

In the end, there are some VERY weak girls team out there & mismatches are going to happen. Its one thing to press an entire game or play your better players the majority of the time against a truly inferior opponent to run the score up. Its totally another where all kids on roster play, half court offense is executed, half court defense is played, & running offenses, etc.

Both of the scores probably could have been a little better managed by both coaches on each team. But I am sure they did play all of their kids too. Its too bad we will continue to see a few more scores like this throughout the year.


The Schwab wrote:I am in favor of the running clock rule for high school basketball. In class B north dakota (especially in girls basketball) the difference between good teams and struggling teams in very large. Unfortunately, I have a feeling we are going to see a lot of scores like this on the girls side. I don't feel that this is an attempt to intentionally humiliate the other team.

We also have to remember that we shouldn't punish the teams and players who put in time in the off season to get better. It's not their fault that they work their tails off to get better. So many times in our society now days we punish the top 10 percent (especially in schools) by focusing a majority of our time, money and resources on the struggling portion of our population.

Just because a team/player puts in all the time and effort in the off-season to get better doesn't mean they should only be allowed to play half of the game or less.

Watford City is in a traditionally weak region, they are a very strong team. They play multiple teams with their JV in order to avoid scores like this the best they can. They are trying to win a state championship, not make other teams feel good about themselves.

I have coached in a game where my team got beat by a worse score then this game. Do I blame the other coach? Do I think they tried to run up the score? Did I feel sorry for myself or my team? The answer to all of these questions is NO. If they would have played the way they practiced and wanted to play when they faced tough competition they would have beat us 120-under 10. Would I have blamed them for that? Not at all
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Re: 66-6

Postby ndlionsfan » Tue Dec 15, 2015 2:47 pm

heimer wrote:2. Let Class B teams do the WDA hockey thing and play the weaker opponents with JV teams so they can take some of the extra Class A games.


Schools can already do this right now. As a few people have already stated, WC does this with a few of the weaker teams they have to play in their district. As someone also stated, this was in a tournament and WC was matched up with this opponent and out of their control. Once more regions go to a super region format and possibly tweak it so you are not required to play every team in your region, some of the stronger teams will drop the weaker teams off their schedule. But in the current district format, you are stuck playing everyone.

Nedrose and South Prairie are in their first year of a varsity schedule. I'm sure they scheduled whatever teams had openings on their schedule already as its tough to find opponents just starting out. Over the next couple years it will work its way out and if both teams are still struggling I'm sure they will see many opponent's JV squads. It happened with Warwick the past few years as well, now they are starting to build their program a bit and win some games. You have to start somewhere and unfortunately more outcomes like this are going to happen this season as well.
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Re: 66-6

Postby heimer » Tue Dec 15, 2015 3:00 pm

Read the whole thing, Lions Fan. I want it to happen more often, and it doesn't because Class A is limited to 19 games in large conferences.

There were two points there. Two points for one plan. If the A's had more games to give, the B's might take them. (they probably wouldn't, for the aforementioned reasons, but at least it's a step).

Why do you single out only the second point when you know they are in concert and you know there's a problem making it happen and you know that I'm targeting that problem.

The B bias on this board is sickening.
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Re: 66-6

Postby Flip » Tue Dec 15, 2015 3:19 pm

heimer wrote:
The B bias on this board is sickening.

A B bias in a B forum you don't say? You know what if you head over to Bisonville you might find a NDSU bias.
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Re: 66-6

Postby heimer » Tue Dec 15, 2015 3:34 pm

Fixing basketball problems is a basketball issue.

Unfortunately, people with undiagnosed anal-cranial inversion (read into that what you will) believe there are no problems in the B-shot world.

I didn't see 66-6 between Shanley and North last night.
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Re: 66-6

Postby Baller » Tue Dec 15, 2015 3:43 pm

87-30 is still 57 points...3 points off this spread.
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Re: 66-6

Postby balla45 » Tue Dec 15, 2015 3:53 pm

Any coach who tells their team to not play defense to allow the other team to score is doing his or her team a disservice.

If the score in this game was 66-36, I doubt you would have an issue.

It is not the defense's responsibility to allow the other team's offense to score.

Also, heimer, what makes me a poor moderator? I disagree with your opinion on this topic 1000%, however, I allow you to have your opinion and have this discussion, even though I could ban you. Quite possibly why I am a moderator.

If this topic remains interesting, I will comment more later as I am at games currently.
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Re: 66-6

Postby scoobyx2 » Wed Dec 16, 2015 7:02 am

Any topic or discussion that is current on this site should be considered interesting. There use to be some pretty good discussions on this site, and now there is very little interests or input. I would like to see moderators try to encourage more discussions. To stay on this thread, I am not a huge fan of controlling how games are played, but if the high discrepancies in scoring is not addressed and the decline of fundamental skill sets continues, the interest in basketball will continue to go down.
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Re: 66-6

Postby balla45 » Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:46 am

scoobyx2 wrote:Any topic or discussion that is current on this site should be considered interesting. There use to be some pretty good discussions on this site, and now there is very little interests or input. I would like to see moderators try to encourage more discussions. To stay on this thread, I am not a huge fan of controlling how games are played, but if the high discrepancies in scoring is not addressed and the decline of fundamental skill sets continues, the interest in basketball will continue to go down.


Forum rules: Please do not post just to complain about players, coaches, teams, officials, fans, or anyone else.

Original post: See 85-15 for comments on lack of class and dignity. Enrollment comments probably don't apply. Zone, shotclock, coaching, and parents comments do.
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Re: 66-6

Postby heimer » Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:48 am

Whatever, Balla. Enforce your rules. You clearly are not interested in engaging in an honest debate about problems facing high school athletics.

I saw some scores from teams in the east last night. Thompson and PR-FL both won "blowout" games last night, and neither team scored 60 points. That's playing the game with class and dignity.

If this board isn't for this specific conversation, then all the board is for is a worthless session of B-shot patting themselves on the back for how wonderful the game, and their contributions to it, are. It's all about how great it is that one kid will have a successful Division I basketball career, and how great all of the record holders are.

Basketball has major problems. It has problems with enrollment disparities, competitiveness, lack of commitment, lack of participation, coaching issues, and more. The only discussion any of these elements get, outside of me airing them out on this board, happens in a closed-door meeting away from the scrutiny of the taxpayer that pays the bill.

None of you liked that atmosphere of solving problems when the enrollment cutoff number was moved to 400, allowing Valley City to move to Class B. But apparently that is the only acceptable place to air those comments.

All I ask is that, when you finally ban me, delete all of my posts also. I wouldn't want your board to gain any readers because of what I bring to the conversation unless the conversation can include strong opinions and a realistic attitude toward the game. If your little pity party out west is disrupted by strong opinions, then please don't profit from any of them.

I hear from a couple of mods in person that this board can be pretty dead till I show up. Despite a strong disagreement with my viewpoints, it apparently inspires conversation. But you and Flip want to ban me so you can censor the conversation to fit your narrative. That shows some real guts.

Go ahead, do your worst.
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Re: 66-6

Postby balla45 » Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:57 am

heimer wrote:Whatever, Balla. Enforce your rules. You clearly are not interested in engaging in an honest debate about problems facing high school athletics.

I saw some scores from teams in the east last night. Thompson and PR-FL both won "blowout" games last night, and neither team scored 60 points. That's playing the game with class and dignity.

If this board isn't for this specific conversation, then all the board is for is a worthless session of B-shot patting themselves on the back for how wonderful the game, and their contributions to it, are. It's all about how great it is that one kid will have a successful Division I basketball career, and how great all of the record holders are.

Basketball has major problems. It has problems with enrollment disparities, competitiveness, lack of commitment, lack of participation, coaching issues, and more. The only discussion any of these elements get, outside of me airing them out on this board, happens in a closed-door meeting away from the scrutiny of the taxpayer that pays the bill.

None of you liked that atmosphere of solving problems when the enrollment cutoff number was moved to 400, allowing Valley City to move to Class B. But apparently that is the only acceptable place to air those comments.

All I ask is that, when you finally ban me, delete all of my posts also. I wouldn't want your board to gain any readers because of what I bring to the conversation unless the conversation can include strong opinions and a realistic attitude toward the game. If your little pity party out west is disrupted by strong opinions, then please don't profit from any of them.

I hear from a couple of mods in person that this board can be pretty dead till I show up. Despite a strong disagreement with my viewpoints, it apparently inspires conversation. But you and Flip want to ban me so you can censor the conversation to fit your narrative. That shows some real guts.

Go ahead, do your worst.


I have enforced zero rules and censored zero content. If I wanted to ban you, you would be banned.
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Re: 66-6

Postby The Schwab » Wed Dec 16, 2015 11:00 am

I am a mod and I love it when you are active on this site, because a lot of people come here just to read your posts. Most people don't agree with a lot of your posts, myself included, but that doesn't mean I think we should ban you. However, I'm not a fan of you calling out Watford City's or Garrisons coach for running up the score when you weren't at the game and didn't see the flow of the game or what they did throughout the game in changing defense, rotating players etc...

I agree with you in the fact that there needs to be some serious discussion on a mercy rule in basketball. I also think that if your team is going to be very, very down you need to have discussions with teams on your schedule about maybe playing their JV. I know most coaches would be in favor of being able to schedule one more good team to challenge their varsity.

I also am not in favor of punishing teams and players who put in the time to get better. If you pick up a basketball from november to march and don't touch it the rest of the year, don't expect me to have sympathy for you getting beat by 40+ points.

Like I said before, I was on the bad end of a 78 point defeat as a coach and I don't blame the other team one bit.
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Re: 66-6

Postby balla45 » Wed Dec 16, 2015 11:22 am

Heimer, seeing as you recently told me that you answered all of my questions in the 85-15 topic. Here are questions that were asked and not answered. Feel free to do so.

Which lie are you referring to?

Lol where did you coach at in college and how successful were you?

How can you work on scoring in 8 seconds if you are burning the entire clock for half of the game?

Do you feel that a team improves by having its players stand in a zone and not apply pressure?

Who said an 8 second offense has no value? Who said zone is not defense?

What personal achievement was accomplished in this game that was more important than the team goal?

Did their 2 time all stater go for 50 points and 20 rebounds?
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Re: 66-6

Postby heimer » Wed Dec 16, 2015 11:48 am

balla45 wrote:Heimer, seeing as you recently told me that you answered all of my questions in the 85-15 topic. Here are questions that were asked and not answered. Feel free to do so.

Which lie are you referring to?--The one where Class B is untouchable, and the west is better than the east, and any criticism of B is uninformed and generally wrong, and B runs the state, and A not cool.

Lol where did you coach at in college and how successful were you? While I didn't coach in college, I have 12 years of working with college level coaches every week for an entire season, and many weeks of the offseason. Not just about the game, but everything from recruiting to meal plans for athletes. If they tell me there's value in "controlling" a game with the shot clock through an 8-second offense, I'll believe them over you.

How can you work on scoring in 8 seconds if you are burning the entire clock for half of the game? Since simple math seems to be beyond the comprehension of this question: In a 35-second clock, you run the shot clock to eight seconds, then run your offense. In a 30-second clock, you run the shot clock to eight seconds, and then run your offense. Weird, right?

Do you feel that a team improves by having its players stand in a zone and not apply pressure? If the game has that large of a difference in talent level, you're not going to get better, period. Chances are, your JV would give you a better game, thus my suggestion to allow Class A schools six extra games a year, provided they accept the invite of B schools that want to play them. Send your JV to R-T or South Prairie. Don't ground pound them into embarrassment then shrug your shoulders and say, "What could we do?"

Who said an 8 second offense has no value? Who said zone is not defense? You, in as many words when you looked at these methods of "controlling" a game as not worthy of discussion. You seem to believe there is no value in not applying pressure. There is real value in "controlling" a game. 85-15 tells me that, while you were obviously better, you weren't good enough to control a game, because you couldn't even control yourself.

What personal achievement was accomplished in this game that was more important than the team goal? See aforementioned comments about individual career and game records.

Did their 2 time all stater go for 50 points and 20 rebounds?
No. Did they control the game? No.

The best teams I've ever seen are teams that lead by 25 points in the second half, used the shot clock, shot 50% to finish the game, and still won by 25. That's control. Best football drive I ever saw was a 6:30 drive that only moved the ball 46 yards and did not result in a touchdown, but won a game. That's control.

85-15 means you never had control of the game, because you're not disciplined enough to even control your own team. That is either a problem with the athletes not taking coaching, or the coaches philosophy. Either way, it's a problem.
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Re: 66-6

Postby balla45 » Wed Dec 16, 2015 12:03 pm

I do not think A s*cks. Quite interesting that you would ever get that perception from me.

I did not say that controlling the game using the shot clocked lacked merit. I have not been dealing extensively with college coaches for 12 years, as I have only been doing that for 6 years.

I am quite able to understand basic math.

I have zero issue with the idea of a jv team playing against a varsity team.

I did not at any point say anything remotely close to "being able to score in 8 seconds has no value." I do not think packing the paint and applying zero pressure is playing defense.

I have seen those comments. I still do not see how it is relevant to the game in question. If Katie Mogen would have gone for 35 points and 20 rebounds, or something along those lines, I feel you would have merit with this.


Statements like this make little sense to me. "The best teams I've ever seen are teams that.......shot 50% to finish the game, and still won by 25." Why have a comment about the shooting percentage? Again, what coach is then telling players to miss shots? I do not understand this at all.

85-15 in the context where the team likely could have won the game 120-15 tells me that the coach did a solid job of controlling the team. I do not think that is a problem. If you want to be competitive in basketball, get better at it.
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Re: 66-6

Postby winner-within » Wed Dec 16, 2015 12:07 pm

couple more last night


HCV 0 2 2 10 — 14

Thompson 19 10 15 9 — 53

Park River/F-L 9 13 22 14 –– 58

Cavalier 8 0 4 2 –– 14



Park River pressed hard till start of 4th
starters stayed in the whole game....and still wanted to press
but coach had to say "get back, get back"

I like what Schwab said "should play a JV schedule", Cav has no JV this season (although Cav and NB already have the PCN Grizzleys but can only co-op certain sports for some God forsaken reason....
If you can’t excel with talent, triumph with effort.
winner-within
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