2014-15 Top Players

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Re: 2014-15 Top Players

Postby east sider » Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:59 pm

No, you are making my point! haha

I don't mean to hijack this thread but the last comment comes from players that are called things like "the glue, Mr. do-it-all, Mr. everything, heart of the team, chip on their shoulder, floor general" and so on. When you play with somebody like that you would know what I mean. These players make everyone on the team better. I was thinking specifically about Jordan when I wrote it.
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Re: 2014-15 Top Players

Postby scoobyx2 » Tue Nov 11, 2014 8:01 pm

I think there are a few topics in this discussion that are going off at a tangent. I agree with radball that it is somewhat difficult to go to a game and determine who is really talented when the competition is poor. I believe that if most people went to game and didn't have a roster or any background on a player, they wouldn't always know who the star is unless you are over 6ft tall. In fact, that is the top selling points for most traveling programs that emphasize "get better by facing better competition" or "get recognized by facing better competition". Why would you need to do that if talent is judged easily?

I think there is confusion on the definition of "better". I think a great player/leader (that isn't easy to find) can be the missing link that a team needs, but as a team, players need to hold their own and do what they are capable of. A star/leader doesn't really make anyone better, but they can give a role player a chance to showcase the skills they do have, which is important, but leaders can't create talent by being on the court with them. Even Maya Moore would not win any games if she can't find a player who can even throw it in to her. Her "awful" teammates still have have a job to do which is throwing in the ball. Maya would give them more opportunities to show what they can do, and possibly win.
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Re: 2014-15 Top Players

Postby balla45 » Tue Nov 11, 2014 8:18 pm

My entire point here was simply this.

I do not think a player can make others better. A player can completely alter the way a defense has to defend, but that player isn't better.

Real life example. If I am playing basketball at the Y with Kevin Rice on my team, everything is easier for me because he draws all of the attention. He didn't make me better as far as my ability to pass, shoot, defend, etc., but he does draw all of the defensive attention. We simply have different opinions on what "making others better" is.

I still don't think it is difficult to identify a stud.

Of all people, Radball, as a D1 scout, should not struggle with this.
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Re: 2014-15 Top Players

Postby east sider » Tue Nov 11, 2014 8:40 pm

Yeah for the sake of this thread let's just agree to disagree, even though I know what you're saying.

I'm really looking forward to watching Nudell play as I haven't seen her in person yet. Any other players in Region 1 that can go toe-to-toe with her?
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Re: 2014-15 Top Players

Postby Flying Wallenda » Tue Nov 11, 2014 10:09 pm

radball wrote:balla45 abviously don't get what "leader/leadership" means in bball players. Again how good did Freije play when she had to play against a good defense in Thompson? just wondering.

Good grief. Freije put 45 on Ryan in the regular season. They played good defense. She also lead that team in steals, rebounds, assists, and blocks. She's taken her team to two states and a region runner up. Cause she didn't score a pile against your favorite Tommie means she's not a player? Get a clue.
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Re: 2014-15 Top Players

Postby balla45 » Tue Nov 11, 2014 10:29 pm

east sider wrote:Yeah for the sake of this thread let's just agree to disagree, even though I know what you're saying.

I'm really looking forward to watching Nudell play as I haven't seen her in person yet. Any other players in Region 1 that can go toe-to-toe with her?


Have heard good things about Asp but haven't watched enough. Kaehler is getting D2 and low major D1 looks. Pretty solid on the block defensively.
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Re: 2014-15 Top Players

Postby balla45 » Tue Nov 11, 2014 10:29 pm

Flying Wallenda wrote:
radball wrote:balla45 abviously don't get what "leader/leadership" means in bball players. Again how good did Freije play when she had to play against a good defense in Thompson? just wondering.

Good grief. Freije put 45 on Ryan in the regular season. They played good defense. She also lead that team in steals, rebounds, assists, and blocks. She's taken her team to two states and a region runner up. Cause she didn't score a pile against your favorite Tommie means she's not a player? Get a clue.


I am pleased to see Flying Wallenda lives in reality.
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Re: 2014-15 Top Players

Postby winner-within » Wed Nov 12, 2014 11:09 am

balla45 wrote:My entire point here was simply this.

I do not think a player can make others better. A player can completely alter the way a defense has to defend, but that player isn't better.

Real life example. If I am playing basketball at the Y with Kevin Rice on my team, everything is easier for me because he draws all of the attention. He didn't make me better as far as my ability to pass, shoot, defend, etc., but he does draw all of the defensive attention. We simply have different opinions on what "making others better" is.

I still don't think it is difficult to identify a stud.

Of all people, Radball, as a D1 scout, should not struggle with this.


I love watching a stud Ball Player (not self glory type but a real deal type) any gender....I'd like to believe I can recognize this from an airplane if theres no roof or they're on an outdoor court... :) and I agree with Balla's reference to "make better" a player that loves the game and wants to win wants to play with the best...not to make him/her better but to have the advantage per say against their (as a team) opponent, its simple...I played a lot with Fallens father...with him and against him...he was extremely tough in the paint and out to 15 feet great shooter, huge mitts, long wings and excellent head, oh! sounds like daughter...shes the real deal, and like I said at the Grand Am last year as a Jr she was the best player in the championship game I thought... :)
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Re: 2014-15 Top Players

Postby east sider » Wed Nov 12, 2014 3:34 pm

balla45 wrote:
east sider wrote:Yeah for the sake of this thread let's just agree to disagree, even though I know what you're saying.

I'm really looking forward to watching Nudell play as I haven't seen her in person yet. Any other players in Region 1 that can go toe-to-toe with her?


Have heard good things about Asp but haven't watched enough. Kaehler is getting D2 and low major D1 looks. Pretty solid on the block defensively.


What schools are they from? I would like to plan to go to one of these games, TIA.

Edit: Nevermind, found it in Region 1 players and teams thread.
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Re: 2014-15 Top Players

Postby cometdad » Fri Nov 14, 2014 4:05 pm

Hey Balla - kick this around in your head for a minute. We have two point guards, neither a prolific scorer, but one sees the court a lot better. When guard 1 is in she like to drive the lane and puts up some really off balance shots that only drop about a third of the time - our bigs get some rebounds and scoring opportunities but everything is heavily contested because the drive into the lane collapses the defense. Guard number two is more of a keep it on the perimeter but is great at passing through zones to the open backside big - our bigs get open looks and their shooting percentages go up. Hasn't guard two made our bigs better by finding them and using them when they are in the same position for both guards?
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Re: 2014-15 Top Players

Postby balla45 » Fri Nov 14, 2014 5:27 pm

No. You didn't give much info, but it sounds like in both situations the big sits in the back of the zone and waits for a lay up opportunity.

Guard 1 just sounds like a bad player.

Guard 2 possesses the ability to find players who are not being guarded and puts those players in a situation to shoot uncontested lay ups.

Guard 2 doesn't make those post players better, guard 2 simply makes obvious basketball plays.
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Re: 2014-15 Top Players

Postby Sniper » Sat Nov 15, 2014 11:38 am

I agree with Balla45 on this. Just because a player scores a few more points a game because they have a stud on the court to give them easy uncontested lay ups does not actually make them a better player when it comes to shooting, passing, dribbling etc..
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Re: 2014-15 Top Players

Postby balla45 » Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:36 pm

not cool that this thread drifted, but it is what it is.

Here is what I consider the perfect example of not making other players better.

If you put me on a team with Kobe Bryant in his prime, Michael Jordan in his prime, Magic Johnson in his prime, and LeBron James in his prime, and have the 5 of us play the current Kentucky Wildcats team, I am still not going to be able to score or guard anyone successfully. All of my teammates are very, very talented, in this situation, but I am not better because I am playing with them.
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Re: 2014-15 Top Players

Postby east sider » Tue Nov 25, 2014 4:43 pm

Don't you think playing with those individuals would make you practice harder, enhance your skills, and push yourself harder than you ever pushed yourself? What if you're a great 3 point shooter? Playing with these guys you could score 15 or 20 points in a game vs. Kentucky. Without them, you can't even get your own shot off. Every once in awhile drive in the lane and throw up the most ridiculous pass and Kobe/Jordan/Lebron throws it down as an alley, assist for you for a garbage pass. Of course these guys would make you better.
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Re: 2014-15 Top Players

Postby balla45 » Tue Nov 25, 2014 5:53 pm

Your example is my point. I go down the lane and throw up an awful pass that turns in to an alley oop. I made a bad play, and LeBron made a great play, in that situation. I'm not better.
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Re: 2014-15 Top Players

Postby winner-within » Wed Nov 26, 2014 10:24 am

Its like when they kicked me out of the NBA for dunking over MJ (story I told my kids) I wasnt better than him I just caught him on a bad day!...

another example: Player one is average and player 2 is an elite super star ...player one heads to the hoop and trys a behind the back pass that comes not even close to the elite star #2 ....player 2 taps player 1 on the shoulder and says "pull your head out of you rear"....next play down court player 1 does a nice chest bounce pass for an assist to player 2.....player 2 made player 1 better for one play LOL
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Re: 2014-15 Top Players

Postby layup » Wed Nov 26, 2014 1:16 pm

I think it is all about semantics. Really good players (Superstars) can make other players more effective and thus make the team better as a whole. There are also really good players who have no desire to play team basketball and thus there team doesn't win as much as they could have. There are only so many superstars to go around. Also there have been teams loaded with talent that do not win like they should. So in a sense a superstar can make the other players better as a whole or unit (but not individually better).
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Re: 2014-15 Top Players

Postby winner-within » Wed Nov 26, 2014 2:23 pm

layup wrote:Also there have been teams loaded with talent that do not win


said a mouthful here

layup wrote:So in a sense a superstar can make the other players better as a whole or unit (but not individually better)


they can make unit worse too....but no, they dont make somebody better individually :)
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Re: 2014-15 Top Players

Postby d_fense » Wed Nov 26, 2014 2:43 pm

I believe it is easier to play with better players. I also think that having success develops confidence. I don't really care what sport you are talking about or the level of play, be it junior high all the way up to professional. We all know of examples of players who play with confidence and those who do not. Confidence can come and go, but once you have it, it tends to stay with you or come back rather quickly. Success gets to be an expectation, or maybe habit would be a better term for it.

Look at high school programs. Every program will have some ups and downs, but in general successful programs tend to stay at a higher level of play. There are a number of things that go into that, but I think a big one is younger players getting a chance to play with talented older plays. That builds confidence in the younger player, gets them excited about their sport, gets them to practice more, harder, and smarter. That in tern makes them better players and allows them to continue the cycle with players younger than themselves.

To me that is how playing with better players makes a player better. I'll always bet on the player that has the most confidence. Success breeds confidence and it can develop quickly with small tastes of success.

Does playing with better players make someone better? It doesn't have to. But, in most instances I believe it does by making things easier (taking pressure off), allowing a player to taste success and fanning the spark that turning into a flame, then a roaring fire.
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Re: 2014-15 Top Players

Postby scoobyx2 » Wed Nov 26, 2014 4:01 pm

I believe that the possibility of success (which can happen with a talented star on the team) can encourage players to put in more time, and in return, will improve on their skills. Teams tend to put in more time in the offseason if they believe they can have a successful season. Also, successful teams also have more representatives on all-conference and all-state teams which makes it seem like they have better players.
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Re: 2014-15 Top Players

Postby gotgame43 » Mon Dec 01, 2014 8:27 pm

College basketball will determine how good these kids really are. Not trying to take anything away from these girls because they are ND's best but ND doesn't exactly bring the best of the best athletes across the nation in fact, we are at the very bottom of highly talented athletes. Would be fun for a few of them to prove me wrong.
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Re: 2014-15 Top Players

Postby east sider » Wed Dec 03, 2014 12:02 pm

Disagree with college BB determining how good they are. I usually go with the combo of stats and the eye test, then compare to great players from the past. There are players in every sport that dominate at the HS level but not college level, just like they can dominate the college level but not the pros. I feel like nothing should be taken away from you if you don't pan out at the next level.
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Re: 2014-15 Top Players

Postby scoobyx2 » Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:57 pm

east sider wrote:Disagree with college BB determining how good they are. I usually go with the combo of stats and the eye test, then compare to great players from the past. There are players in every sport that dominate at the HS level but not college level, just like they can dominate the college level but not the pros. I feel like nothing should be taken away from you if you don't pan out at the next level.

I agree. There are many factors that come into play as an athlete moves on to the next level. Even deciding to play a sport during her senior year is challenging when academics, jobs, and other activities/sports are considered. The biggest challenge in ND are numbers competing and quality of coaching. Very few coaches are talented on program building and getting numbers up, so top athletes do not face stiff competition at practice and don't consistently face big matchups regularly.
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