North Dakota Preps

heimer wrote:On this board from timmyg:

the 1996 and 1997 teams from May-Port CG are, as already said, the best teams in ND history.

Of course, every year the team that wins the class B will have a person, or groups of people say that "this is the best team ever, they'd have won the class A tourney". But is EVERY SINGLE CLASS B PERSON IN THE STATE saying that, as you insinuate? Of course not. That's like saying, because I think you're pompous, that EVERY PERSON who is or was from Valley is pompous. You're the master of grouping thousands together when in fact only a handful are representing. I myself can think of approximately 4 teams in the last 25 years in either class B girls or boys that I feel were PERHAPS better than the class A champs. Just my opinion.

Just to clarify my previous statement, IMO the MPCG teams of 96 and 97 were the best teams in the state regardless of class for those GIVEN years, not the history of ND basketball, but I do believe that they could play with state champs from other years. If you didn't have the opportunity to watch these teams play you missed out, they were something special!

so Oak grove plays Davies tomorrow...is CK throwing up in fear of playing TK....
and whats the final score of this game?...

I don't understand why we can't have a great discussion on ND basketball history where someone can claim that a particular team may have been the best team. I think this year BHS girls was the best team in Class A, and Century was a close 2nd, but I am sure Shanley may disagree.

Its mentioned that if a Class B team wants to claim to be the best, then they should opt to move up, but its tough to make the claim that a team was the "greatest team ever" until the season is over, and we analyze the season and all the teams that played. I believe Class A overall is the highest level of play in the state, but every Class A team is not better than all the Class B teams every year.

The way we get Minot, Bismarck, Fargo, and Dickinson out of the Class B state tournament is to make the claim that the talent pool, transfer options, and number of players to draw from residentially at those schools is giving them too much of an advantage over other Class B schools. Claiming that they are simply trash compared to the big schools that they share a city with only justifies the idea that changes are not needed.

heimer wrote:Scroll up, Flip. Every year, the debate appears. Not to mention the Fargo Forum's expose on the MPCG teams of that era. The article specifically stated that the debate was on as to whether those teams were the best ever, regardless of class.

So there was debate and no one claimed it to be true like you stated?

... crap spewed with no basis in fact

You're good at that.

scoobyx2 wrote:
The way we get Minot, Bismarck, Fargo, and Dickinson out of the Class B state tournament is to make the claim that the talent pool, transfer options, and number of players to draw from residentially at those schools is giving them too much of an advantage over other Class B schools. Claiming that they are simply trash compared to the big schools that they share a city with only justifies the idea that changes are not needed.

Exactly!

I did hear that UND will be playing baseball this weekend at Shiloh's field as its turf and good to go...what kind of advantage is that, having a college game played & getting their field ready to roll in tip top shape????

justplayalready wrote:

scoobyx2 wrote:
The way we get Minot, Bismarck, Fargo, and Dickinson out of the Class B state tournament is to make the claim that the talent pool, transfer options, and number of players to draw from residentially at those schools is giving them too much of an advantage over other Class B schools. Claiming that they are simply trash compared to the big schools that they share a city with only justifies the idea that changes are not needed.

Exactly!

I did hear that UND will be playing baseball this weekend at Shiloh's field as its turf and good to go...what kind of advantage is that, having a college game played & getting their field ready to roll in tip top shape????

Their field is very nice, and I think they are working with the Bismarck Public Schools to help make sure that the baseball and fastpitch schedules with all the schools stay on track especially with Municipal Park being under construction.

Sorry - same post in two threads but I'm trying to make sure I get as much info as I can.

Let's list the advantages of the large city schools - I personally am asking our school board to petition the NDHSAA to push the large city parochial teams out of the B and a list of advantages will help.

1. Private schools typically have more affluent parents that do send their kids through the AAU programs.
2. Large city college programs are allowing kids whose parents are donors to practice with their teams (the three New Town girls are practicing up at Mary and even had a chunk of the U of Mary team at the region championship cheering them on. I know the Hansted boys also practiced with DSU - that's class A but shows that this isn't an isolated instance of one college).
3. Immediate access to the acceleration programs offered by the major medical facilities in cities.
4. Transfers - I don't believe there is recruiting and think we class B towns shoot our own arguments in the foot by this always being the first topic raised. There are definitely well documented transfer problems at Shiloh though and it's a given that they weren't transferred for "faith based" schooling.
5. Money spent on sports programs by the parochial schools (and not just on facilities). If you look at the Shiloh/Ryan/Oak Grove schedules you'll notice that they'll travel great distances to play stiffer competition. The schools in our district are even consolidating boys/girls games into one night to try and keep travel costs down so that they can live within the tax bases budget.
6. Money spent on coaching - Shiloh has 4 coaches and the small towns in our district budget for 2. We had three this year but only because our elementary coach did it for free while trying to gain some high school experience.

There is some real animosity growing, at least in our region, about this problem and I was ecstatic that Sherm Sylling was on hand to witness the ABS (Anyone But Shiloh) sentiment that has taken over. Since he's retiring I hope he is passing it on to the other board members. Grant County had a great sign that went something like "home grown talent - small town pride" and all the other communities in the region were cheering on the Coyotes. Any other advantages people can give would definitely be appreciated and I'll post my letter to the Underwood school board in case anyone else wants to use it to encourage their board to speak up.

Combine Weder's idea for 8 districts and 4 regions....

http://bismarcktribune.com/sports/baske ... 963f4.html

....with heimers idea for the the top 32 and I think we got a winner.

Too bad that's too much forward thinking for too many.

bequickdonthurry wrote:Combine Weder's idea for 8 districts and 4 regions....

http://bismarcktribune.com/sports/baske ... 963f4.html

....with heimers idea for the the top 32 and I think we got a winner.

Too bad that's too much forward thinking for too many.

How about the bottom 32 teams in their own class, that way a small town wins a championship every year..........The Casselton, Kindreds, Ryans of the world don't like to have to play some of those perennial(sp?) poor small town teams. Just kidding, but it would ruin that state tourney, just like taking the next top 16 or 32 would if adding another tourney, IMO.

quoting: How about the bottom 32 teams in their own class, that way a small town wins a championship every year

For two reasons:

1. My idea for expanded A addresses a frequent concern about "watering down" B. If you use the bottom 32 in a class, you immediately water down B, unless....

2. If the bottom 32 are in a class, you can then have B boys and girls at the same time, freeing up a weekend for a true three-class system.

Either way, expansion of A with GUARANTEED SMALL-SCHOOL STATE PARTICIPATION is the best option. It generates perhaps the single greatest sports event in America (NCAA Tournament). It would work for basketball in North Dakota.

If you're a current A, you shouldn't be able to pat yourself on the back for doing something special because you got fourth in your region and you go to state. They have to be part of the solution also.

If you're a current A, you shouldn't be able to pat yourself on the back for doing something special because you got fourth in your region and you go to state. They have to be part of the solution also.[/quote]

This should go on an A forum, but I always thought it would be nice to have the top 4 Class A team, 2 from west and 2 from east , in a Two State Tourney with South Dakota......it will never happen, but I would love to have seen it. Rotate boys and girls from one yr SD then one yr ND.

Hey Minotguy, I didn't know that winning a B girls title made you the policeman of the boards.

We're talking about the pervasive nature of YOUR parochials from the largest towns in the state, how it affects B basketball, and possible solutions.

The comment is appropriate for this forum, this thread.

No one is talking about a border battle with South Dakota. If you think your Bishop Ryan girls are that special, go on a barnstorming tour............of the WDA. Since, you know, you could have won that league anyway. Just ask you.

heimer wrote:Hey Minotguy, I didn't know that winning a B girls title made you the policeman of the boards.

We're talking about the pervasive nature of YOUR parochials from the largest towns in the state, how it affects B basketball, and possible solutions.

The comment is appropriate for this forum, this thread.

No one is talking about a border battle with South Dakota. If you think your Bishop Ryan girls are that special, go on a barnstorming tour............of the WDA. Since, you know, you could have won that league anyway. Just ask you.

There is no solution readily available to the "who was/is the best" scenario. Heimer, realize the comparisons of this team or individual vs that team or individual have occurred for decades. Whomever vs. Ali, Tiger vs. Nicklaus, the NCAA Div. 1 football champs vs. an NFL team.
All of these championships are well deserved and have come through hard work, trials and tribulations, teamwork, and coaching. Not to mention the countless hours spent on their respected craft.
I have seen over the years and venues, and sports, an increased hostility toward players, coaches, and referees. Sports are a microchosim of life. We have become a society of trophies and awards. Kids need to deal with the reality that life is not fair, hard work pays off, and you can LEARN from LOSING. Parents need to deal with the reality that life is not fair, hard work pays off, and you can LEARN from LOSING.

I don't need a lesson in humanities. Minot Ryan worked hard and won their titles. I acknowledge that. They did it at the B level, and their fan base foams at the mouth about them being able to do it at the A level.

I say do it at the A level. What's more fair than that?

And this idea that "there will always be inequity" doesn't get us off the hook of solving the inequity we're confronted with. The parochials in the state's largest towns are winning an inordinate number of district titles, regional titles, and state titles. Fans see it, and I'm encouraged that we are finally recognizing a problem other than Valley City in current classification.

You can bury a lump of dog crap, grow a flower, and focus on the flower. It's still dog crap you buried to get the flower. (for translation purposes: dog crap=current system, flower=champions because of the system)

heimer wrote:I don't need a lesson in humanities. Minot Ryan worked hard and won their titles. I acknowledge that. They did it at the B level, and their fan base foams at the mouth about them being able to do it at the A level.

I say do it at the A level. What's more fair than that?

And this idea that "there will always be inequity" doesn't get us off the hook of solving the inequity we're confronted with. The parochials in the state's largest towns are winning an inordinate number of district titles, regional titles, and state titles. Fans see it, and I'm encouraged that we are finally recognizing a problem other than Valley City in current classification.

You can bury a lump of dog crap, grow a flower, and focus on the flower. It's still dog crap you buried to get the flower. (for translation purposes: dog crap=current system, flower=champions because of the system)

Incorrect. District and region titles for a certain few of the privates, yes. State titles other than this season, no. Do the private schools have some advantages playing in the larger cities? Yes. But if the advantages are so great, why haven't Our Redeemers and Williston Trinity dominated at the same time? Why haven't Surrey, South Heart, Trenton, DLB, Thompson, etc. all dominated as well? How have MPCG, Northstar, Linton, Cavalier, New Rockford, etc. been able to be have such good runs while having none of the same advantages?

heimer wrote:I don't need a lesson in humanities. Minot Ryan worked hard and won their titles. I acknowledge that. They did it at the B level, and their fan base foams at the mouth about them being able to do it at the A level.

I say do it at the A level. What's more fair than that?

And this idea that "there will always be inequity" doesn't get us off the hook of solving the inequity we're confronted with. The parochials in the state's largest towns are winning an inordinate number of district titles, regional titles, and state titles. Fans see it, and I'm encouraged that we are finally recognizing a problem other than Valley City in current classification.

You can bury a lump of dog crap, grow a flower, and focus on the flower. It's still dog crap you buried to get the flower. (for translation purposes: dog crap=current system, flower=champions because of the system)

I think its worse in MN, SD and Montana.....so what to do about it?

the single most simplest thing would be? in you opinion and I've read all the posts, but tell us the single most simplest thing....and remember there are no parochial's in Region 2

All titles were mentioned. On the cumulative, they are at an inordinate number.

Winner, I stand firm. Expanded A, split divisions based on size, guaranteed state tourney spots for each division.

It is simple. It's the model for the most popular tournament in the nation, perhaps the world. It works.

heimer wrote:All titles were mentioned. On the cumulative, they are at an inordinate number.

Winner, I stand firm. Expanded A, split divisions based on size, guaranteed state tourney spots for each division.

It is simple. It's the model for the most popular tournament in the nation, perhaps the world. It works.

I do like your idea for a new plan and would like to see it gain ground. Ryan, Trinity, Oak Grove, Central Cass, Watford, Beulah, Botno, Grafton, etc. all seem to fit nicely together and I also like them competing with A schools. It really is a 3-class system, just sugar coated in a different way. It would make class A bball more appealing to more of the state and introduce a David vs Goliath in both A and B.

heimer wrote:All titles were mentioned. On the cumulative, they are at an inordinate number.

Winner, I stand firm. Expanded A, split divisions based on size, guaranteed state tourney spots for each division.

It is simple. It's the model for the most popular tournament in the nation, perhaps the world. It works.

well I can respect that...
"you've got to stand for something, or you'll fall for anything
you've got to be your own man, notta a puppet on a string"

I think it would progress and and add to Basketball for a few years in ND....it is simply to predictable year after year....It would fizz out in a hurry I'm afraid though....we simply have to concentrate more on the schools with 4 kids in one class....this is 2014.

Maybe your right ndlionsfan, it’s a sugar coated 3 class system. Why not make heimers expanded” A” a 3 class system? Top 2 A divisions class AA, bottom 2 A divisions A, the rest B. A would be run like AA with 2 regions and their own state tourney.

Oldman, the TV networks will not budge on their commitment to only three weekends. There will be no fourth weekend.

So, you can do one of two things to introduce a third division.

1. Expand A, split divisions, each division sends four to state tournament, and A remains on weekend of basketball. B boys and B girls get their own weekend.

2. B boys and girls on same weekend in same place, which opens up a weekend for a true-third class to have it's own tournament.

There was a time I would have favored option 2, and you'd think, with the poor attendance of this year's girls tourney, we could easily accommodate B boys and girls in the same weekend now.

But, I still like making teams fight for a berth at state. If we had, lets say, 16 teams AA, 16 A, and the rest B, both of the top divisions would have state tournaments for half their membership. I don't even like that now, with 20 A teams having 8 at state.

I can stomach an expanded 32 team A getting 8, if the big half gets 4, and the small half gets 4. That way, you get guaranteed small vs. large right away, and there's some real entertainment value to the tournament.

Either works. But if we're gonna do it over, I want to dress it up.

Ok, I like your option 2 the best. I think B fans would learn to like a combined tourney. I think the super A is great. My problem with your expanded A two class idea is, I don’t think the teams you’re moving up to A div 2 would like going to a state tourney and have to play the big dogs, plus you’re going to leave some good div 1 teams home on tourney weekend. I understand your 8 teams out of 20 going to state might be to easy but it might be hard to get the 2 class system passed.

heimer wrote:But, I still like making teams fight for a berth at state. If we had, lets say, 16 teams AA, 16 A, and the rest B, both of the top divisions would have state tournaments for half their membership. I don't even like that now, with 20 A teams having 8 at state.

I can stomach an expanded 32 team A getting 8, if the big half gets 4, and the small half gets 4. That way, you get guaranteed small vs. large right away, and there's some real entertainment value to the tournament.

Either works. But if we're gonna do it over, I want to dress it up.

I agree with this also. That is why I like the idea of expanded A vs a true three class system. Adds more competition at the top level and makes getting to state a bigger accomplishment. Would the A schools ever go for it though is doubtful to me.

On the flip side, I also wouldn't mind a combined class B state tournament. Highly doubt it would ever happen, but I would go every year to see that much basketball in action at one time where right now I don't attend both state tourneys and would pick the boys over the girls. But I also don't like the two separate arenas for the super A. Don't know how it could be done to get all the games scheduled at one location, though. how does MN handle their state tournaments? Seems like teams are always playing in the morning so they must have a lot going on in the same arena.

heimer wrote:Oldman, the TV networks will not budge on their commitment to only three weekends. There will be no fourth weekend.

So, you can do one of two things to introduce a third division.

1. Expand A, split divisions, each division sends four to state tournament, and A remains on weekend of basketball. B boys and B girls get their own weekend.

2. B boys and girls on same weekend in same place, which opens up a weekend for a true-third class to have it's own tournament.

There was a time I would have favored option 2, and you'd think, with the poor attendance of this year's girls tourney, we could easily accommodate B boys and girls in the same weekend now.

But, I still like making teams fight for a berth at state. If we had, lets say, 16 teams AA, 16 A, and the rest B, both of the top divisions would have state tournaments for half their membership. I don't even like that now, with 20 A teams having 8 at state.

I can stomach an expanded 32 team A getting 8, if the big half gets 4, and the small half gets 4. That way, you get guaranteed small vs. large right away, and there's some real entertainment value to the tournament.

Either works. But if we're gonna do it over, I want to dress it up.

It comes down to "3" separate groups making a concession. Using your terminology:
Class AA - Has to get over the fact they've had it pretty good for a long time. To be honest, their state tournament and their brand of basketball has gotten much more exciting in the past decade+. The argument has always been, just too easy to get to the state tournament, with approximately 50% chance of going.
Class A - Big B's and Privates will fight this all the way and have clout. They've been the big kid on the block in B and don't want to give that up. Will they? Have heard, "life isn't fair" and "pull up your pants" used, are they willing to do the same?
Class B - Tournament attendance is down, for both girls and boys. They have received plenty of "tinkering" with their tournaments, but will need to concede something for this to happen.

I like heimer's proposal, except, if AA (4 go to state) and A (4 go to state) would be formed, then B has to make a concession. I think if AA and A had a tournament, it would become the biggest tournament of all. The AA/A boys and girls should each get their own weekend. Also, to make it work in B, I think the class B boys and girls should be on the same weekend, and if possible, in the same gym.
Here's an idea. Thursday of state B tournament, alternate games between boys and girls. It's going to have to start early in the morning, just like football. The losers in the first round are done. Friday and Saturday then alternates the semi-finals and finals, respectively, for the boys and girls. Yes, you lose all the 5th-8th place games for both boys and girls, but that's the concession.
Here's the problem: Are there enough gyms, refs, and quite frankly days in the week, to allow class B boys and girls to get their districts and regionals done? Maybe the super regionals idea would take off with this model?
I know it's a crazy idea, and am sure a lot of holes in it, but not much traffic on here, so threw it out there to get butchered.
Wait for it....... (couldn't resist)