Almost There

Class B Girls
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Almost There

Postby heimer » Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:24 am

Fellow basketball fans.

Congratulations! We are so close to our goal of destroying girls basketball!

First, our brilliant move of switching seasons with volleyball has led to an explosion of participation and athleticism in volleyball, while numbers of girls basketball dwindle statewide. While the argument to do this, the idea that girls would benefit from competing with boys for atmosphere, was clearly flawed, we knew that volleyball is a combined Class A and B tournament, so that tourney stood to become a huge money maker, and the girls only need one good tournament anyway.

Second, we knew everyone but the teams playing would move on directly to spring if we just switched the dates of the state tournaments with the boys. That single move has crushed the tournament in just a few years time.

Finally, our resistance to realign basketball led to the wonderful, small, community-oriented city of Minot, population 70,000 or so after oil, to claim one of our Class B titles, winning games over competition that, at its largest, had 2500 population , and, at worst, what, around 800 or so. But this is well worth it so we can point to Trenton as this years darling of this years boys tourney, and quietly hide the fact that they are one more darling leaving us for a co-op with another one of our beloved parochials in the oil patch next year.

We are almost there! Did you see that abysmal crowd for the tournament? I know some die-hards will say that its just an optical illusion of the FargoDome, but we know that crowd was a product of our efforts to kill the game. Another couple of years of this, along with our legislature possibly banning enforcement of Title IX, and we could e actually eliminate Class B girls basketball without anyone noticing!

Keep up the good fight fans! Oh, and the racial slurs thrown at New Towns players Friday night were a nice touch.
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Re: Almost There

Postby east sider » Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:38 pm

How long has Minot Ryan been Class B? They won one title before this almost 20 years ago, it's not like they do this every year - though they stand a good chance to win in 3 years in a row. FYI It's the size of the school, not the size of town.
LaMoure-LM, Milnor, Trenton were all small schools in the boys tournament and all advanced into the semifinals. Yet you single out Trenton simply because they are co-oping next year. News flash, this has been going on steadily in ND for over 20 years. I won't doubt if Milnor co-ops within 5 years.

I agree, Girls was better staying in the fall. Anybody know why they switched it?
Not sure what you are talking about with legislature banning Title IX
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Re: Almost There

Postby Bisonguy06 » Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:29 pm

heimer wrote:Fellow basketball fans.

Congratulations! We are so close to our goal of destroying girls basketball!

First, our brilliant move of switching seasons with volleyball has led to an explosion of participation and athleticism in volleyball, while numbers of girls basketball dwindle statewide. While the argument to do this, the idea that girls would benefit from competing with boys for atmosphere, was clearly flawed, we knew that volleyball is a combined Class A and B tournament, so that tourney stood to become a huge money maker, and the girls only need one good tournament anyway.

Second, we knew everyone but the teams playing would move on directly to spring if we just switched the dates of the state tournaments with the boys. That single move has crushed the tournament in just a few years time.

Finally, our resistance to realign basketball led to the wonderful, small, community-oriented city of Minot, population 70,000 or so after oil, to claim one of our Class B titles, winning games over competition that, at its largest, had 2500 population , and, at worst, what, around 800 or so. But this is well worth it so we can point to Trenton as this years darling of this years boys tourney, and quietly hide the fact that they are one more darling leaving us for a co-op with another one of our beloved parochials in the oil patch next year.

We are almost there! Did you see that abysmal crowd for the tournament? I know some die-hards will say that its just an optical illusion of the FargoDome, but we know that crowd was a product of our efforts to kill the game. Another couple of years of this, along with our legislature possibly banning enforcement of Title IX, and we could e actually eliminate Class B girls basketball without anyone noticing!

Keep up the good fight fans! Oh, and the racial slurs thrown at New Towns players Friday night were a nice touch.


There is nothing coherent about this post. I'm familiar with the strategy here. It's called "throw a bunch of stuff at the wall, see if anything sticks, and propose a three class system as the solution to clean up the mess. P.S. Ignore all counter-arguments and paint all class B supporters as hicks."

You'll notice that Heimer had nothing to say over in the class B boys thread, where we had a state tournament with good crowds, great games, and four small public schools playing each other in the winner's bracket on Friday and Saturday night.
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Re: Almost There

Postby scoobyx2 » Sun Mar 24, 2013 2:19 pm

I am a big basketball fan, but what is wrong with having an explosion in volleyball? Out of the Miss Basketball candidates this year, only one is going to a major D1 college, and its for volleyball. For many ND girls, volleyball is better sport for them especially in Class B. They can be active, and there isn't as much running involved.

Also, I can kind of see the debate of the advantages of a private school, but that doesn't really apply to Minot Ryan this year. They haven't won in years, and their best player chose to go there because her mom went there. She wasn't really "recruited" and didn't go there because they were going to be good. She made them good.
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Re: Almost There

Postby Mailman_25 » Sun Mar 24, 2013 3:29 pm

What the ....!

"Valley City should be in Class B, Blah, Blah Blah.We need a 3-Class system, Blah, Blah, Blah. The NDHSAA is out to destroy Valley City (and now girl's basketball), Blah, Blah, Blah."

Same story, different chapter!
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Re: Almost There

Postby heimer » Sun Mar 24, 2013 4:04 pm

Oh, sorry about the absence Bisonguy. I was busy watching Shanley beat St. Mary's 100-95 in overtime.

But, three distinct points made:

1. The change to the winter has killed girls basketball.

2. Switching the tournament to the end finished it off.

3. Realignment is still an issue, despite your "koom-bye-yah" in Minot this year.

I'm still wondering how many teams Oak Grove, Trinity, Ryan, Grafton, Central Cass, Shiloh Christian, Beulah, etc, etc, kept out of regional tournaments this year. But I forgot, as long as we get our sweet little Kool-Aid sipping session in the round of eight, no one gives two (edited for the young) about those teams. And I thought I'd slip in that Trenton will be Trenton-Williston Trinity Christian next season. Probably wouldn't be with three classes. So I guess your point of view just forced another David to give up its identity and become Goliath.

And since its Lent, we might as well call them Judas next time they combine with the best team oil money can scholarship and knock another deserving, truly "B" team out of districts, regionals, and state.

But, leaving three classes aside, the girls are getting jobbed. But again, "koom-bye-yah" at boys fixes all evils.

Oh, as far as Valley City goes, they are over it and so am I. This years B boys tourney was great for the Hi-Liners. After that first round, I'm sure the Hi-Liners were looking at their Barnes County tourney brackets and smiling. And they were still smiling after the finals.

Bring on the EDC.
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Re: Almost There

Postby Bisonguy06 » Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:02 pm

I support moving the B girls season up and the B boys season back, for starters. Totally agree that the season swaps (volleyball and basketball, boys and girls) have drained a ton of energy and enthusiasm from the B girls game.

I do not support putting the B girls tournament in the Fargodome, which is a venue that the B girls don't have a prayer of filling and never did in the first place. Scratch that... I'm ok with the Fargodome if we can all admit and understand that the place won't be full if we put it there. You act surprised by this revelation.

You also act surprised to find out that Trenton will need to co-op with their closest geographical neighbor when they have run out of high school boys to field a team. When you have less than five participants, you can't compete at any level or in any system (two classes, three, ten, you name it.) Are you proposing 3 on 3 basketball as a NDHSAA sanctioned sport? That's the only way you could see Trenton with their own team in 2013-14.

I support the product that class A is putting on the floor as well. They have great teams and individuals. Roughly two-thirds of all North Dakota high school students are educated in a class A high school right now, and that percentage is growing. You would expect the class A tournament to grow in stature as a result, and that's just fine!

I don't understand why a fan can't enjoy all of the following:
Shanley 100, St. Mary's 95, OT (boys)
Milnor 67, Four Winds 60 (boys)
Ryan 54, Central Cass 50 (girls)
Thompson 54, Napoleon 53 (girls)

It's really too bad that you were so wrapped up in Shanley's win to appreciate those other games as well. I guess I'm surprised that you didn't boycott the Shanley/St. Mary's game, since it was private school vs. private school and all.

Now, look again at the 2013 class B season, both boys and girls. Look at both state tournaments and look at the full picture. You will find successful big schools, small schools, and medium-sized schools. You will find successful public and private schools. You will find traditional powerhouses and you will find one-hit wonders at the state tournament. On the boys' side, a talented team that had not been ranked all year got healthy, came through a tough region and got hot at the right time. On the girls' side, the odds-on favorites ran the table and became the champions, but they were tested in all three games of the tournament. In both tournaments, we had several competitive, exciting games. If you're simply focused on the action on the court, you can't ask for much more than what you got in the championship and third place games last night.

The B boys tournament was not some "koom-bye-yah" fluke this year. Look back as far as 2007 and you will find a small public school playing for the state championship for seven consecutive years.

What's with the smear campaign against class B? What are you hoping to gain with your latest rant?
Last edited by Bisonguy06 on Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Almost There

Postby Bisonguy06 » Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:23 pm

With every year that goes by, we have a greater percentage of North Dakota students being educated in class A towns and schools.

With every year that goes by, thousands of North Dakotans who have migrated from the country to the city are one more year removed from their small schools and communities.

Class A basketball is a big deal and will continue to grow.
Class B basketball is a big deal, but will never again match its Hillsboro vs. Epping heyday.
I'm OK with that.
You seem determined to cling to the class B of long ago that cannot possibly be attained, and when today's class B falls short of an impossible standard, you demand that we blow the whole thing up. Am I following your 'logic' correctly?
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Re: Almost There

Postby heimer » Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:38 pm

I'm not really here to debate this logically. I have an inward respect for "B", as it was and as it is. But the "koom-bye-yah" leads to a false perception of B as it is, and the debate needs opposition. My only interestvis being the opposition.

As in all fights, might makes right. You and your fellow B fans have the might. I will never be right. I used to care, but I don't anymore. I'm just here to be your opposition, pi-- you off, and move on.

As long as you brought it up, you mention a big Pandoras Box in your post. You admit that Hillsboro-Epping will never be matched, yet every "David vs. Goliath" explanation of our current system keeps us from something much better.

And, for the record, would you please quit labeling me as a 3-class advocate, when you know dam- good and well, through public and private conversations, that a Super-2 is my agenda. I believe 3 would be better, but not the best. At least come at me with the right argument to crap on.

Okay, done. Best game all year was at the A boys. The EDC regional is the best tournament in the state. Keep your "koom-bye-yah" and we will all be happy. Seems the useless banter you and I have are the best reading on this site.
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Re: Almost There

Postby Bisonguy06 » Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:23 pm

I simply used Hillsboro v. Epping to refer to a generation of great ND class B basketball where we had over twice as many schools and teams competing. That game was the peak of the era but certainly not the only thing the era had to offer. Class B was and is a good product, with or without the David v. Goliath element.

Moving along...

"My only interest is in being the opposition."

"I'm not here to debate this logically."

Alright, then. You're here simply to stir the pot. Your posts serve no other purpose. Thank you for clarifying.

I do miss your contributions... Preps doesn't have the activity that it used to have. On this site anyway, we've missed you.

Though in the end, I would prefer that facts and logic dictate the way we structure high school basketball.

PS - I'm partial to the WDA over the EDC.
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Re: Almost There

Postby heimer » Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:33 am

You like your facts and your logic to manage basketball. Not facts and logic.

And the WDA is nothing like the EDC. It's good, don't get me wrong, and props for not farming out the first round to home sites.

The EDC vs. WDA battle is a lot like the Civil War. WDA better leaders and better spirit. EDC more men and material, and ultimately, winners.
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Re: Almost There

Postby cometdad » Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:45 am

Seems the 3 class system is not really an option but has the NDHSAA ever thought about applying what they push small towns to do being applied at the "A" level? Underwood and TLM have to co-op to put together a football team - why can't Bishop Ryan and Our Redeemers co-op to put together their class A basketball team? Guessing the addition of Shiloh to St Mary's would help them be more competitive in their girls programs. Would also think that this would cut down on the sketchy "transfers" to the private schools. At the region 5 tourney championship you can tell there is growing discontent about Shiloh being one of the top two every year (three quarters of the gym was cheering on Grant County) and once again there are rumors floating about two of New Towns starters heading to Shiloh next year through the Bearstail connection (understand they are just rumors at this point but these rumors have ended as truth way too many times to just ignore).
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Re: Almost There

Postby heimer » Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:22 am

cometdad, the Super 2 idea that I have floated numerous times on this forum accomplishes the end you're looking for, without the co-op and without gutting anything.

To date, I have not heard any logical argument or argument based on facts that would effectively defeat the super-two idea. What I do here is nothing but protectionism for the current structure and a handful of big schools that enjoy significant competitive advantages, and do not want to give those up.
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Re: Almost There

Postby ndlionsfan » Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:26 am

Since it's been a year now since you've stirred the pot on here, can you please post your "Super 2" idea again for us to see?
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Re: Almost There

Postby NDplayin » Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:42 am

In addition to updating us on exactly what your "Super 2" idea is... could you also please define for us the great "koom-bye-yah" that you refer to over and over without definition.

I know very well what the phrase means but not your use of it in this context. I have a sneaky suspicion, based on you track-record on this site, that all you've done is attempt to attach a catch-phrase your admittedly illogical argument in hopes that false propaganda and the rant of the un-silent minority will emotionally overpower that rational voice of the logical majority... But, I'll keep that sentiment as strictly suspicion until I read your response.

In an attempt to expedite the argument you and I seem destined to have, I'll ask you two favors- although I doubt you'll grant them.

1: We all know that numbers and facts can be slanted based on the individuals perspective... none-the-less... If you're going to attack someone else's numbers or facts then please state the reasons you disagree and offer your own numbers or facts in response. For you to disagree is expected... for you to back-up your disagreement by shouting senseless phrases like "koom-bye-yah" and "apologist" doesn't do anything to help us understand your point.

2. You're disgruntled about several things; that's your prerogative. However, if those several things are unrelated, keep them unrelated in your argument. If you want to claim that girls basketball should be in the fall or at least before boys in the winter, you're not going to get an argument from me, and I'll bet you don't get many arguments from anyone else on here either. However, as an example, if you want to assert that something needs to be changed with enrollments or private schools or what have you... and you're using the timing of the girls basketball season as a reason, all you're doing is applying a problem to an unrelated subject in hopes that if you get people riled up and angry about one thing they will try to change something completely different. That, by definition, is false propaganda.

Again, based on your track record, I highly doubt you'll grant either of these two favors. At least I've laid some ground rules by which you know in advance I'll call you're argument weak and flawed if you use certain tactics.
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Re: Almost There

Postby balla45 » Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:54 am

heimer wrote:You like your facts and your logic to manage basketball. Not facts and logic.

And the WDA is nothing like the EDC. It's good, don't get me wrong, and props for not farming out the first round to home sites.

The EDC vs. WDA battle is a lot like the Civil War. WDA better leaders and better spirit. EDC more men and material, and ultimately, winners.


What are you talking about? The WDA has shown consistent dominance with state championships over the last decade in Class A basketball with 18 of the last 22 championships.

Boys.

2003 - Dickinson
2004 - Saint Mary's Central
2005 - Bismarck
2006 - Fargo North (EDC)
2007 - Dickinson
2008 - Bismarck
2009 - Mandan
2010 - Bismarck
2011 - Bismarck Century
2012 - Grand Forks Red River (EDC)
2013 - Fargo Shanley (EDC)

Girls.

2003 - Mandan
2004 - Mandan
2005 - Mandan
2006 - Mandan
2007 - Mandan
2008 - Mandan
2009 - Bismarck
2010 - Bismarck Century
2011 - Fargo North (EDC)
2012 - Bismarck Century
2013 - Bismarck Century
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Re: Almost There

Postby heimer » Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:05 pm

Awesome, a chance to do some real writing for a change. Don't blame me, in true website fashion, you're the ones piling on the questions.

First, Playin, you're absolutely right. I should have realized this before, and I'm sorry. I should have been honest about my complete lack of interest in following any debate rules you set forward. So, I'll just say that I have absolutely no interest in following any debate rules you set forward. I care less about your idea of a constructive debate than I care about, well, almost anything else, really. Every time one person gets to dictate how a debate is going to work for the other person, no one wins.

Second, Balla, you're a funny guy with your state championships and such. If I recall, the WDA didn't win a game on Saturday this year, and no amount of WDA whistles can justify some of your first-round wins this year. The EDC, being the best tournament in all of ND basketball (reference the two-top-ranked teams being upset in this year's semifinals) helped Bismarck out tremendously. Century's win over RR was legit, but RR then smacked St. Mary's, the WDA's highest-ranked team, on Saturday. Singling out title games is like pointing at one out of every 50 golf shots and saying, "Wow, that guy's good." Meanwhile, he's in the clubhouse with a 95 and some kid from the east is headed to the Nike tour.

Okay, now on to some dialogue with cometdad, who appears to have an open mind, uncorrupted by the Kool-Aid of "Koom-bye-yah."

Cometdad, unlike what you may have heard by some 68-year-old administrator who remembers showing up on gameday by tying his horse to a hitching post outside the gym, the current two-class system of basketball is not "what we've always had, and it's always worked great."

(Apology #1--Sorry Gobison, didn't mean to steal the words from you and put in the mouth of an administrator. I should have waited till you got a chance to say it on your own.)

(Apology #2--The reference to the hitching post is, in no way, shape, or form, a shot at the kind of towns involved. Even Fargo and Bismarck had hitching posts at one time. It is, in every way, a shot at the people making decisions currently, and using out-of-date time frames to shape how we do things in 2013.)

Back to you, cometdad.

After a three-class system came to an end in the early 1960's, North Dakota developed a two-class sytem, but it had three (count 'em, three) ("3" for you Playin, in case your rules for debate are broken by using words for numbers) Class "A" conferences. There was the WDA, the EDC, and this wonderful league called the "North Star".

The North Star would be analogous to today's mid-major conference in NCAA basketball (much like the Summit League, the Big Sky, etc, etc.) The teams in the North Star were all the small As of the period (MINOT RYAN, Devils Lake, Bottineau, Belcourt, Grafton, Rugby, Carrington, VC, I think Cavalier was in there for a while, anyone can feel free to fill in the rest). They played each other in the regular season, the had a tournament for two spots in the A state tournament, combined with three WDA and three EDC teams.

After the 1990-91 season, the North Star collapsed as several of the teams had enrollments that fell below the 325 threshhold, doing two things:

A) leaving the smallest As (VC, Devils Lake, Belcourt, heck even Grafton was in rough shape) in a competitive disadvantage against the biggest schools in the state

B) leaving the traditional B teams to inherit big schools into their structure.

Now, here are some facts that are NOT in dispute:

1. The current system that every administrator says has "worked forever" has been around for 22 years, not forever.

2. Every other sport but basketball has undergone fundamental change since the loss of the North Star.
a) Football to four classes
b) volleyball realignment
c) wrestling expanding its number of qualifiers, adding state duals, adding weight classes
d) any qualifying sport with altered qualification standards

Only basketball has been the "sacred cow".

The Super 2 is a re-invention of the North Star. In the Super 2:

Class A expands from all above 325 to top 32 enrollments in ND
The top 16 enrollments play in a top division

The next 16 enrollments play in their own division

All schools without geographically-defined boundaries are in the smaller division of A. They may choose to opt up

Each division split into east and west regions.

Each region qualifies two teams for state.

In the end, four spots held for the "mid-majors", four for the top teams. They play one tournament, but the teams are split into their own halves of the bracket. Thus, Thursday is the semi-finals of each division, Friday is the finals for each division, meaning each division has a state champion, and then Saturday, we get four straight "David and Goliath" matchups we all seem to love.

This is legal as defined by the clause of the NDHSAA constitutions that states, "The enrollment used for separating divisions will be 325 as long as a two-division system is used." This system is three divisions, but two classes.

All the Big Bs move out, all the parochials move out. Better state tournament, more opportunities for smaller schools in all levels of tournament play, not just the "koom-bye-yah", and much more parity for competition during the regular season.

I have never had an administrator tell me they don't like this. Unfortunately, the big B's have told the small Bs that, should they vote for this plan, they will hold them hostage at the ticket booth by refusing to play them in the regular season. (By the way Bisonguy, this is FACT. One school in District 2 told another school this, and I have it right from the super's mouth. You want the schools, PM me.)

In this way, TV only covers three tournaments, which they want, B is refreshed for both the boys and girls and at all levels pf tournament play, and A gets more competition. After all, who at the B level doesn't slam A by saying how easy it is to qualify for state since there are only 20 teams and eight go. Well, now 8 of 32 would go.

(By the way, that argument about ease of qualification is bogus. Two of the top three ranked teams in the state had to win qualifiers in the EDC this year. It is not easy to win on Friday or Saturday of the EDC or WDA. But again, the information patrol is generaled by our B friends who probably haven't seen an EDC or WDA game in their life.)

This plan will never see the light of day, but since you were asking, cometdad, I thought I'd lay it out for you.

By the way Bisonguy, and Hinsa, and all the other B apologists out there, over this season, I've had a chance to compile a different list. I have spent all of my driving hours trying to narrow down the top five criteria for an athletic program that would be considered to be successful over the long term. My effort was to rank the components of a program in such a way that, over the long term (the span of time I used was 10 years), the elements in that program would tell the story of who is more successful when set in a direct comparison to other districts.

In other words, over the long term, if I wanted to rank, say, Grafton against MPCG, my list of five criteria would tell the story, based on the idea that one of the criteria higher on the list would mean more than one lower on the list. I went so far as to force a list that would not allow you to compensate for a deficient item high on the list with more of one lower on the list (example, If my item number 1 is better, consistently, than your #1, your number 2 being better would not compensate).

Believe it or not, enrollment was not my number one. I say this because I always get labelled as the guy who just believes numbers conquer all. I believe the numbers we have are being classed the wrong way, but I don't believe enrollment is everthing.

My list of the five goes like this (from bottom to top), and, after you get done bashing me for being an idiot, then tearing the Super 2 apart because what we have is good enough, I'd actually enjoy some comment on this:

#5--Facilities available. This does not just include the arena at the school. If you've been to the Choice Fitness center in GF, you find regulation indoor tennis courts. Red River has won 14 straight tennis titles. I don't by the idea that kids play better in nicer gyms because they have more pride. I've seen kids work their bottoms off to defend the pride of a rathole. So, it's the lowest criteria on my list. But, when you see the investments made from town to town on various facilities, it does make a difference.

#4--Coaching. The ability to get more out of kids, the ability to teach the game, means more than any facilities available. But coaches are not the sole item in a system either.

#3--Enrollment. Coaches can overcome deficiencies in overall enrollment, but I don't think, in this day and age, they can do it consistently over the long-term. Over the long-term, enrollment advantages will lead to more wins.

#2--Type of kid enrolled. This one is interesting. If school A has more kids, but school B has kids more interested in winning, coaching can conquer all. Also, the success of smaller parochial schools shows us that the type of kid matters way more than the overall enrollment.

And, the number one criteria.........

#1--Schools/Districts commitment to winning. Schools who believe winning is important will influence their kids enrolled to take the game seriously, will inspire coaches to be successful, and convince the community of the need for facilities. Basically, #1 addresses the level of all but enrollment, as enrollment is kind of out of a schools control.

So, particularly you, Bisonguy, understand that I spent a ton of hours working on this, and stayed away from the classification game for an entire year. I wanted to improve my understanding of the landscape first, and I believe I have. But I'm still completely convinced that a Super 2 is better than a three, and better what we have now, and that we're overdue for change. At least you know that enrollment isn't my chief concern. (And, based on what you know about me, I think you know what I'm referring to.)
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Re: Almost There

Postby balla45 » Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:23 pm

Your response to me was not logical. I was not funny with state championships, I was factual. Saint Mary's lost by 5 in overtime to Shanley after leading the majority of the game. Red River beat Saint Mary's. Century beat Red River. Davies beat Century, when Century played seniors who do not see the floor the majority of the game and subbed 5 in 5 out.

Also, Bismarck, the WDA 4 seed who barely snuck in to the tournament beat the EDC 1 seed.

If you knew anything about the WDA, you may have realized this.

Saint Mary's started Andrew Wolf against Red River by the way.

AND the WDA girls still won the title by 34.

Please, enlighten me on how the EDC is better than the WDA. Much different playing in first round games that matter, when you are still in contention for a title, than playing in second and third round games where you are playing for a trophy that you do not want.

Also, looking at the way the tournament ran, if the EDC tournament had played out to seeding, we would have had a St. Mary's - Shanley championship, which Shanley won by 5 in overtime.

After the tournament ended, most felt that the Saint Mary's - Shanley game was a first round state championship.
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Re: Almost There

Postby heimer » Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:27 pm

Be more than happy to enlighten you. Take the thread to the A board, and you and I can have a field day.

How good is Belcourt? How good is Williston? Cause Wahpeton was pretty good. And again, the EDC won every game Saturday, no matter who started.

I'm sorry, I forgot we judge whos better by who wins the majority of the game, not the whole thing. I'll try to remember that going forward. Your WDA champ got beat by both east teams it saw at state. It's only win, Mandan, the west four seed.

Not about who you start, it's about who you finish with. And it doesn't matter who's ahead with 3 minutes to go, it's about who won in overtime. See, the team that finishes with more points with no time left is declared the winner, and moves on. That's how basketball works.
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Re: Almost There

Postby balla45 » Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:34 pm

Your logic, again here, does not make sense.

I think Belcourt was terrible. Belcourt did not make the WDA tournament. You should not be comparing Belcourt against Wahpeton, you should be comparing them to Central, Fargo North, and Valley City.

Wahpeton was the 6 seed in the EDC tournament, so your argument here is terrible.

We do not judge who is better by who was winning the majority, we judge who is better by who wins. That said, it was obvious to anyone at the tournament that Saint Mary's and Shanley were on the same level. That is why it was an overtime game.

Your EDC champ went two and out. Again, I do not see your point here.

It really does matter who you start. The WDA coaches, Mattern and Mueller both elected to play seniors who do not regularly see the floor on the last game of their career, which was on SATURDAY. There is a big difference to a Century team where Tyler Rudolph plays 33:17 (Red River) and a Century team where Tyler Rudolph plays 20:44 (Fargo Davies). If you are not able to realize that, you do not know basketball.
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Re: Almost There

Postby Sportsrube » Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:36 pm

Just to throw my 2 cents in: I played in the Northstar Conference all through HS. It consisted of Minot Ryan,Bottineau,Rugby, Belcourt, Devils Lake, Valley City, Grafton and Langdon. It was very competitive within the conference but when we stepped outside the conference it was definitely an uphill battle. (Though from 1980 - 1982, the Northstar did pretty well at state with Devils Lake and Valley City being pretty tough for those years. - DL had a Hiesler (SP) that was really good and a couple of other good players and Valley City had a Jewitt (SP) and a couple of really good shooters.) Wahpeton actually applied to join the conference in for the 1981-1982 year but were turned down for travel reasons. The hardest part of the Northstar Conference was scheduling non-conference games, you either had to travel to the home of Class A teams (they wouldn't stoop to coming to any of our gyms) or play Class B teams which wasn't always an automatic win. The top 2 from the Northstar went to state and the top 3 from the WDA and the EDC went to state - not sure how they matched them up at state though. (Never made it that far to see how it was done!)
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Re: Almost There

Postby heimer » Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:39 pm

Balla said--We do not judge who is better by who was winning the majority, we judge who is better by who wins. That said, it was obvious to anyone at the tournament that Saint Mary's and Shanley were on the same level. That is why it was an overtime game.

Shanley won, so did Red River. EDC 3 and 4 seed both score wins over WDA champ.

See, in basketball, there are no "same levels" in tournaments. We just keep throwing time up there till someone scores more points.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overtime_%28sports%29
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Re: Almost There

Postby balla45 » Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:44 pm

So, according to your logic, Jamestown is better than Fargo Davies, because Jamestown beat Devil's Lake, who beat Fargo Davies.

Let's attempt to use some type of context with our arguments here.
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Re: Almost There

Postby balla45 » Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:46 pm

Also, with that stupid argument, is Bismarck High automatically better than Red River, because they did beat Bismarck Century, who did beat Red River. But wait, that can't work, because Red River beat Saint Mary's, but Saint Mary's swept Century this year, and Century beat Red River. Hmm. Maybe we should use some context with our arguments.

I will still say right now that one can make arguments as to who was the best team 2-8 or whatever, but other than Fargo Shanley being the best team in North Dakota, nothing else can be definitively stated either way. And Saint Mary's was on the same level, just happened to come up a few plays short, although for the 2012-2013 season, they are +11 against Fargo Shanley.
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Re: Almost There

Postby heimer » Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:49 pm

I think you just did. You obviously do not believe that any one matchup can determine who is better consistently in A boys basketball, because so many teams beat so many other teams.

So, lets do this:

EDC record vs WDA at state: 5-2
WDA record vs EDC: 2-5

Tough to argue those numbers.
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