Numbers

Class B Girls
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Numbers

Postby Flip » Wed Dec 12, 2018 10:29 pm

Every year it seems like more teams struggle to get girls to play basketball. I'm curious how many girls some teams have playing out of their 9-12 grades and if they have low numbers how are they making JV games work if they are even playing JV.

Some I've heard or seen.
Linton-HMB 12 - in grades 9-12 (maybe some 8th graders?)
Strasburg 11 - in grades 9-12
Napoleon GS 10 - in grades 9-12, then they added 3 8th graders.
South Border 11 - in grades 9-12
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Re: Numbers

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:22 pm

Flip wrote:Every year it seems like more teams struggle to get girls to play basketball. I'm curious how many girls some teams have playing out of their 9-12 grades and if they have low numbers how are they making JV games work if they are even playing JV.

Some I've heard or seen.
Linton-HMB 12 - in grades 9-12 (maybe some 8th graders?)
Strasburg 11 - in grades 9-12
Napoleon GS 10 - in grades 9-12, then they added 3 8th graders.
South Border 11 - in grades 9-12


I've heard Region 1 is really down as well.
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Re: Numbers

Postby bingobangobongo » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:00 am

Run4Fun2009 wrote:
Flip wrote:Every year it seems like more teams struggle to get girls to play basketball. I'm curious how many girls some teams have playing out of their 9-12 grades and if they have low numbers how are they making JV games work if they are even playing JV.

Some I've heard or seen.
Linton-HMB 12 - in grades 9-12 (maybe some 8th graders?)
Strasburg 11 - in grades 9-12
Napoleon GS 10 - in grades 9-12, then they added 3 8th graders.
South Border 11 - in grades 9-12


I've heard Region 1 is really down as well.


Northern Cass moved four 7th graders to JV and three other 7th graders to the C team because of low numbers, and they are not a very small school.
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Re: Numbers

Postby Sportsrube » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:06 am

bingobangobongo wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:
Flip wrote:Every year it seems like more teams struggle to get girls to play basketball. I'm curious how many girls some teams have playing out of their 9-12 grades and if they have low numbers how are they making JV games work if they are even playing JV.

Some I've heard or seen.
Linton-HMB 12 - in grades 9-12 (maybe some 8th graders?)
Strasburg 11 - in grades 9-12
Napoleon GS 10 - in grades 9-12, then they added 3 8th graders.
South Border 11 - in grades 9-12


I've heard Region 1 is really down as well.


Northern Cass moved four 7th graders to JV and three other 7th graders to the C team because of low numbers, and they are not a very small school.


If they have a C squad, a JV and a Varsity, the numbers can't be all that bad. I would be very curious to know how many Class B teams have a C Squad made up of HS kids.
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Re: Numbers

Postby Flip » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:28 am

If you have to put 7th graders on JV and C squad should you have a C squad?
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Re: Numbers

Postby maddog1971 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:51 am

So yes numbers are problems. Coaches see the talent coming up and they bring them up and play them. Then the Juniors or even seniors quit. So basically if your 8th Grader is just as good as your senior.... play your senior. Play your 8th Grader JV.... That is why kids are quitting. Kids have played all the way with their classmates and friend and then you throw some young kid in the mix and they make mistakes but don't take the butt chewing you do because ..... they are young... really? If you going to play them treat them the same. There are tons of examples of truly talented 7th or 8th Graders but that is a handfull a year.
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Re: Numbers

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:04 pm

Oak Grove has 16 total playing JV/V and 11 are freshmen and younger. I’ve heard there are very few ‘C’ teams this year...teams sneaking by with just enough to play a full JV game
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Re: Numbers

Postby packers21 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:12 pm

maddog1971 wrote:So yes numbers are problems. Coaches see the talent coming up and they bring them up and play them. Then the Juniors or even seniors quit. So basically if your 8th Grader is just as good as your senior.... play your senior. Play your 8th Grader JV.... That is why kids are quitting. Kids have played all the way with their classmates and friend and then you throw some young kid in the mix and they make mistakes but don't take the butt chewing you do because ..... they are young... really? If you going to play them treat them the same. There are tons of examples of truly talented 7th or 8th Graders but that is a handfull a year.


Say I have an equally talented 8th grader and senior. I would start the year in favor of the experience and work in the younger player, if the younger player proves they are ready for more minutes then I give them more and more if they are helping the team compete at a higher level. I think it is more important to give the younger players the 6 quarters (minutes) a night than it is to start them over someone. As for mistakes you are wrong, a Senior shouldn't be making the same mistakes as an 8th grader. They both need to be corrected but as a coach I am going to have a much shorter lease on a player making the same mistakes as a senior compared to when they are a 8th grader. Just bc you have been playing with your friends for a set number of years and now you guys are seniors together doesn't mean you should be starting and playing together. I think this is harder on the girls side than the boys. You do not see the number of JH boys as you do on the girls side.
It is a little harder to motivate kids I guess because they’ve been pampered so much. We’re in the trophy generation, give ‘em a trophy for 23rd place, make ‘em feel good. Make mom and dad feel good.” Tom Izzo, Michigan State Basketball
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Re: Numbers

Postby sportsnut5 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:34 pm

It is important to have some loyalty to the juniors and seniors in your program, but that loyalty cannot be at the expense of your program. If an 8th grader and senior are equal, then the upside is so much higher for that 8th grader by the end of the season. The senior has a huge advantage in earning that playing time. They have had at least 4 years in the system to improve and show that they deserve the playing time. Age is only a number, playing time should not be decided on your age. It should be determined by the skill level on the floor which is developed year round.

It is a very fine line however. If the coach rushes the 8th grader along, then their development can be halted as well. I have seen many a young player play at the varsity level, become a very valuable role player, but when it is their turn to be the leader, they never reach their potential because at no level were they the alpha dog or better put, never given a greater role. Giving those young players time at the JV level can allow them to take risks and grow as players.

I think the game has become much better with more skilled players on the floor at all age levels. Many players play summer ball and put more time in during the off season. What we are seeing with less participation is that players cannot just pick up a ball during the season and be competitive anymore. This is why we have more blowouts, which in turn makes for less participation. A combination of can't compete and don't want to invest the time.
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Re: Numbers

Postby sideliner » Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:00 pm

sportsnut5 wrote:It is important to have some loyalty to the juniors and seniors in your program, but that loyalty cannot be at the expense of your program. If an 8th grader and senior are equal, then the upside is so much higher for that 8th grader by the end of the season. The senior has a huge advantage in earning that playing time. They have had at least 4 years in the system to improve and show that they deserve the playing time. Age is only a number, playing time should not be decided on your age. It should be determined by the skill level on the floor which is developed year round.

It is a very fine line however. If the coach rushes the 8th grader along, then their development can be halted as well. I have seen many a young player play at the varsity level, become a very valuable role player, but when it is their turn to be the leader, they never reach their potential because at no level were they the alpha dog or better put, never given a greater role. Giving those young players time at the JV level can allow them to take risks and grow as players.

I think the game has become much better with more skilled players on the floor at all age levels. Many players play summer ball and put more time in during the off season. What we are seeing with less participation is that players cannot just pick up a ball during the season and be competitive anymore. This is why we have more blowouts, which in turn makes for less participation. A combination of can't compete and don't want to invest the time.


Totally agree with last paragraph. Now it seems like kids rather pick up their phone rather than the ball.
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Re: Numbers

Postby winner-within » Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:25 pm

sportsnut5 wrote:It is important to have some loyalty to the juniors and seniors in your program, but that loyalty cannot be at the expense of your program. If an 8th grader and senior are equal, then the upside is so much higher for that 8th grader by the end of the season. The senior has a huge advantage in earning that playing time. They have had at least 4 years in the system to improve and show that they deserve the playing time. Age is only a number, playing time should not be decided on your age. It should be determined by the skill level on the floor which is developed year round.

It is a very fine line however. If the coach rushes the 8th grader along, then their development can be halted as well. I have seen many a young player play at the varsity level, become a very valuable role player, but when it is their turn to be the leader, they never reach their potential because at no level were they the alpha dog or better put, never given a greater role. Giving those young players time at the JV level can allow them to take risks and grow as players.

I think the game has become much better with more skilled players on the floor at all age levels. Many players play summer ball and put more time in during the off season. What we are seeing with less participation is that players cannot just pick up a ball during the season and be competitive anymore. This is why we have more blowouts, which in turn makes for less participation. A combination of can't compete and don't want to invest the time.


parents play the major part of this decision and then when a player gets a taste of "don't have to worry about it now" then they rarely return to the hardwood...........Cheer-leading is on a hard comeback too in the last few years...I remember when they switched Volleyball and Basketball around and Girls Basketball ended up same time as Boys, there were many many Class B boys teams without any Cheerleaders for years...and with that said Volleyball by far has much more participation than Basketball
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Re: Numbers

Postby maddog1971 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:54 pm

packers21 wrote:
maddog1971 wrote:So yes numbers are problems. Coaches see the talent coming up and they bring them up and play them. Then the Juniors or even seniors quit. So basically if your 8th Grader is just as good as your senior.... play your senior. Play your 8th Grader JV.... That is why kids are quitting. Kids have played all the way with their classmates and friend and then you throw some young kid in the mix and they make mistakes but don't take the butt chewing you do because ..... they are young... really? If you going to play them treat them the same. There are tons of examples of truly talented 7th or 8th Graders but that is a handfull a year.


Say I have an equally talented 8th grader and senior. I would start the year in favor of the experience and work in the younger player, if the younger player proves they are ready for more minutes then I give them more and more if they are helping the team compete at a higher level. I think it is more important to give the younger players the 6 quarters (minutes) a night than it is to start them over someone. As for mistakes you are wrong, a Senior shouldn't be making the same mistakes as an 8th grader. They both need to be corrected but as a coach I am going to have a much shorter lease on a player making the same mistakes as a senior compared to when they are a 8th grader. Just bc you have been playing with your friends for a set number of years and now you guys are seniors together doesn't mean you should be starting and playing together. I think this is harder on the girls side than the boys. You do not see the number of JH boys as you do on the girls side.


So I can not disagree more. If an 8th grader has the same talent as a senior and is taking time away from the kid who has invested his whole HS career.... then that 8th grader needs to held to a higher standard. Most of the time these kids want to play with their friends. I would rather have 5 kids on the floor player for each other and as a team. How many times to you see the older kids not make the pass to the younger kid..... team chemistry is very important.
How many coaches are talking to players and getting them excited for the season.... building their program. Not very many. These kids in ND right now are being developed by parents of travel ball teams.
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Re: Numbers

Postby The Schwab » Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:59 pm

maddog1971 wrote:
packers21 wrote:
maddog1971 wrote:So yes numbers are problems. Coaches see the talent coming up and they bring them up and play them. Then the Juniors or even seniors quit. So basically if your 8th Grader is just as good as your senior.... play your senior. Play your 8th Grader JV.... That is why kids are quitting. Kids have played all the way with their classmates and friend and then you throw some young kid in the mix and they make mistakes but don't take the butt chewing you do because ..... they are young... really? If you going to play them treat them the same. There are tons of examples of truly talented 7th or 8th Graders but that is a handfull a year.


Say I have an equally talented 8th grader and senior. I would start the year in favor of the experience and work in the younger player, if the younger player proves they are ready for more minutes then I give them more and more if they are helping the team compete at a higher level. I think it is more important to give the younger players the 6 quarters (minutes) a night than it is to start them over someone. As for mistakes you are wrong, a Senior shouldn't be making the same mistakes as an 8th grader. They both need to be corrected but as a coach I am going to have a much shorter lease on a player making the same mistakes as a senior compared to when they are a 8th grader. Just bc you have been playing with your friends for a set number of years and now you guys are seniors together doesn't mean you should be starting and playing together. I think this is harder on the girls side than the boys. You do not see the number of JH boys as you do on the girls side.


So I can not disagree more. If an 8th grader has the same talent as a senior and is taking time away from the kid who has invested his whole HS career.... then that 8th grader needs to held to a higher standard. Most of the time these kids want to play with their friends. I would rather have 5 kids on the floor player for each other and as a team. How many times to you see the older kids not make the pass to the younger kid..... team chemistry is very important.
How many coaches are talking to players and getting them excited for the season.... building their program. Not very many. These kids in ND right now are being developed by parents of travel ball teams.


You do realize that ND has contact rules for coaches with kids in the summer, right?
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Re: Numbers

Postby sportsnut5 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:25 pm

Maddog, you used a key word in your statement. Invested. If that senior is invested, then yes they should and will play in most programs. However, many times they have invested little time to improve. Hence, they are less skilled than an 8th grader.

Your comments on coaches in ND is a bunch of hogwash. The coaches that I know invest a huge amount of time and energy in the kids with their program. If you were ever a coach that statement would never have come out of your mouth as you have no idea the commitment most of these coaches make. Coaches are held accountable for the success of their local teams and often take a great deal of heat. Much of which is based on the commitment of teenagers. When teenagers commit, you had better reward them regardless if age.
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Re: Numbers

Postby ProudPirate » Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:10 pm

Schwabe there are no rules anymore. I have personally witnessed full practices being done in the summer months along with the 'league' games by the head coaches. So do this 2x a week for BB & 2x a week for Volleyball. Doesn't leave much time for them to be kids. Throw in some team camps on weekends. I wouldn't want to play either. And YES i have spoken directly with the NDHSAA about this and their response was we will NOT enforce any summer rules at the state level and we all know, god forbid the school admin will do anything about BB.
Lots of things surrounding fewer players, it's really not 1 thing, but little more freedom wouldn't hurt.
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Re: Numbers

Postby packers21 » Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:32 am

ProudPirate wrote:Schwabe there are no rules anymore. I have personally witnessed full practices being done in the summer months along with the 'league' games by the head coaches. So do this 2x a week for BB & 2x a week for Volleyball. Doesn't leave much time for them to be kids. Throw in some team camps on weekends. I wouldn't want to play either. And YES i have spoken directly with the NDHSAA about this and their response was we will NOT enforce any summer rules at the state level and we all know, god forbid the school admin will do anything about BB.
Lots of things surrounding fewer players, it's really not 1 thing, but little more freedom wouldn't hurt.



If you aren't working and playing in the summer you are going to get beat in the winter. I would be happy I had a coach willing to give up their summers to spend with athletes in a hot gym, not calling to tattle on them and complain when we get beat all winter/fall long. As for me when I was in school there was nothing else I would rather of been doing than hanging out with my friends all summer playing sports, but I guess we have fortnite and Iphones now.
It is a little harder to motivate kids I guess because they’ve been pampered so much. We’re in the trophy generation, give ‘em a trophy for 23rd place, make ‘em feel good. Make mom and dad feel good.” Tom Izzo, Michigan State Basketball
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Re: Numbers

Postby maddog1971 » Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:07 pm

sportsnut5 wrote:Maddog, you used a key word in your statement. Invested. If that senior is invested, then yes they should and will play in most programs. However, many times they have invested little time to improve. Hence, they are less skilled than an 8th grader.

Your comments on coaches in ND is a bunch of hogwash. The coaches that I know invest a huge amount of time and energy in the kids with their program. If you were ever a coach that statement would never have come out of your mouth as you have no idea the commitment most of these coaches make. Coaches are held accountable for the success of their local teams and often take a great deal of heat. Much of which is based on the commitment of teenagers. When teenagers commit, you had better reward them regardless if age.


Hogwash? Well I have coached for 15 years and I do see quite a bit of coaches not spend the time on their program. Granted they get paid penny's per hour they spend working with kids and have other jobs and commitments. But coaches need to work with the kids to get them to commit and when they do put the work and time in... they should be rewarded with time on the court. Building good people should be the main goal.
I agree if a senior comes in and has not picked a ball up from last season and is bad... and the 8th grader is better and has been putting in time to get better... yes play the 8th grader... but this BS that they are the same but the 8th grader you think has more potential over the long run is BS.
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Re: Numbers

Postby packers21 » Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:17 pm

maddog1971 wrote:
sportsnut5 wrote:Maddog, you used a key word in your statement. Invested. If that senior is invested, then yes they should and will play in most programs. However, many times they have invested little time to improve. Hence, they are less skilled than an 8th grader.

Your comments on coaches in ND is a bunch of hogwash. The coaches that I know invest a huge amount of time and energy in the kids with their program. If you were ever a coach that statement would never have come out of your mouth as you have no idea the commitment most of these coaches make. Coaches are held accountable for the success of their local teams and often take a great deal of heat. Much of which is based on the commitment of teenagers. When teenagers commit, you had better reward them regardless if age.


Hogwash? Well I have coached for 15 years and I do see quite a bit of coaches not spend the time on their program. Granted they get paid penny's per hour they spend working with kids and have other jobs and commitments. But coaches need to work with the kids to get them to commit and when they do put the work and time in... they should be rewarded with time on the court. Building good people should be the main goal.
I agree if a senior comes in and has not picked a ball up from last season and is bad... and the 8th grader is better and has been putting in time to get better... yes play the 8th grader... but this BS that they are the same but the 8th grader you think has more potential over the long run is BS.


I don't think anyone said that. You were the one making up these comparisons. If both are committed to a program there are ways to play both. If one is committed and one isn't play the one who is. If you wanna play senior go for it. Good for you. I think we are in agreement.
It is a little harder to motivate kids I guess because they’ve been pampered so much. We’re in the trophy generation, give ‘em a trophy for 23rd place, make ‘em feel good. Make mom and dad feel good.” Tom Izzo, Michigan State Basketball
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Re: Numbers

Postby Flip » Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:32 pm

Thread has turned into "Why don't girls play," but does anyone have some numbers of kids playing in these programs?
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Re: Numbers

Postby The Schwab » Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:34 pm

Flip, to get back on topic, I haven't seen many girls games this year, but judging by what I've seen last year and looking at rosters on NDHSAA I would assume that participation is down significantly in the past 5 years. I don't know how many teams in the Region 7 area will have 3 teams (where the c squad isn't just JH kids)
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Re: Numbers

Postby sportsnut5 » Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:00 pm

I will always find a way to play a senior who is committed to the goal of the team. My point was that many do not put time in and expect to play because they are older. This cannot be the case.

As for numbers, I do believe they are down. There are a lot of reasons that cause this and one that hasn't been mentioned is the ridiculous 3 day break many get between the volleyball and basketball seasons. Kids do need to be kids. Kids do need to be students. In many small schools everyone tries to participate in everything. I think the NDHSAA needs to look at the alignment of the seasons so kids can have at least a short time to regroup both physically and mentally between seasons.

In northwest South Dakota, traditionally strong schools like Faith and Lemmon have had many girls not go out for basketball. Again the reasons vary and are many, but there definitely is a trend towards not wanting to compete in the great sport of basketball.
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Re: Numbers

Postby B-oldtimer » Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:10 pm

I wasn't go to respond but I guess I can't help but respond on this. I have changed my mind some on this as I have gotten a little older and watch the kids that were same age as my children. The first part is that vast majority of the kids we have here in North Dakota small town are busy and engaged doing many different things. We in sports community think its all about participating and doing the work to get better in sports. The fact is a lot of these kids are doing this to please their parents, friends, and community in these activities along with number of other activities they do in the community. What I have seen is that these kids do get burned out on sports and many other things they do so they spend the time on things they are interested in. I think girls mature sooner than boys so we see the numbers drop quicker in high school because as they mature they decide what they want to spend their time at and what they will not. The fact is kids today are doing more things to get them selves ready for adult life than I did when they were their age. These kids on average are busy and becoming adults much faster than we did even in previous generation. How many of you were taking college classes in high school that was not done when I was in school, today much more expected of them in doing community service than in the past, and so is the case in school there are more activities and groups activities that these kids participate in. So the natural progression is something got to give and its sports where your expected to play year around and if you decided that its not for you and realize they are not going to excel at it they either quit or don't put time in but continue to participate to satisfy the list above. I want to say that these kids are just as motivated as we were its just not at sports and many of them have invested the time wisely in other things that will serve them much farther in their lives. The phone thing is way these kids communicate and do so many things today it has replaced the radio, tape player or DVd player, newspaper, tv, library, games and list continues so you wonder they are on it so much. I think us in the local sports community that sports are not end all or most important thing in life but since we have real interest in this we expect this of kids participating. This has been the change I have seen since I was in school because when I was in school sports were important but when the season ended we were done with that sport and we moved on to the next sport or being in rural community you were busy working on the farms. The work on farm were the off season strengthening program back in my day by doing haying, rock picking, shoveling, and other physical activities. I just want to conclude that kids of today what I have seen are quite outstanding and have seen them go on become quite successful in their endeavors.
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Re: Numbers

Postby sportsnut5 » Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:31 pm

B-oldtimer, I think you are spot on with your analysis. There are more activities and experiences for kids now days and it is important as adults that we encourage these students to do the activities that they enjoy and can find success in.
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Re: Numbers

Postby winner-within » Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:10 pm

B-Oldtimer, thats a good read..our Gen was raised by a very strong Generation of parents preparing us to be parents in a different time just like they were parents in a different time compared to their parents...the key is to try envision at least a bit of what is coming down the pipe to prepare the adolescents for the future....

the one thing you hit on is "burned out" the problem in our neck of the woods is there are not a lot of things to do outside the school sports unless one goes out and starts something.........but I would tell any young person ages 6-10, what ever you decide to do, do it with all you have, block out criticism, jealousy, and demoralization, and stick to your dreams, stick to your dreams.....and leave others stick to theirs :)

sorry Flip, I know you don't like sap

up north? Numbers are good!

Cavalier, I will say, is focusing on Girls programs much better as of late, and it is a well needed task!!
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Re: Numbers

Postby Sportsrube » Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:56 pm

Well said B-oldtimer. I would also add that for whatever reason a lot of young ladies in these small towns do not care for basketball. They would rather play VB or work and the passion for BB just isn't there. Not every kid loves sports and many would rather spend their time doing other things. Not everyone in a small town lives for sports or enjoys the competition (girls or guys), it is a different time from when a lot of us on this board were growing up.
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