Bisonguy06 wrote:I hope that people go back and read every post on this thread and all the other threads about 3 classes before we go any further with this topic.
For those who support a 3 class system, I would also recommend waiting until after the state title game to see what kind of evidence you have, if any. Right now, we are at 6 years in a row where a small public high school has advanced to the state B boys basketball championship game. (Parshall '07, Dakota Prairie '08, Turtle Lake-Mercer '09, Berthold '10, North Star '11 and '12, if my memory is correct)
The Schwab wrote:I think we agree on certain parts of your plan, but instead of mass consolidation a simple and trial period of lowering the class A cut line to 175, then those big schools (ie Trinity and Beulah) would be sweating, and the only reason I say that we should lower the cut line to 175 is this.. It is much easier to find a group of 8-10 kids in a school of 300 to compete with a school of 1200 than it is for a school of 80 to compete with a school of 300, and i've said this from the start.
justplayalready wrote:Bisonguy06 wrote:I hope that people go back and read every post on this thread and all the other threads about 3 classes before we go any further with this topic.
For those who support a 3 class system, I would also recommend waiting until after the state title game to see what kind of evidence you have, if any. Right now, we are at 6 years in a row where a small public high school has advanced to the state B boys basketball championship game. (Parshall '07, Dakota Prairie '08, Turtle Lake-Mercer '09, Berthold '10, North Star '11 and '12, if my memory is correct)
Is last year a fluke or the start of the norm??? Do the big B's have a competitive advantage over the small B's??? How many of the above named teams were "out of gas" in the champ game against a big B??? half???I would argue Beulah had a competitive advantage over North Star due to depth that surfaced over a three night in a row tourney...of course this isn't enough to talk changing classes. But will we start to see B's that go 8-9 deep, all upperclassmen & a talented soph or two with a full 15 roster??? Right now the small public's can compete on one night. night two a bit less???? night three less and less???
Smalls will always get to the B...but will they run it playing 5-6 with frosh and sophs??? Would it be special when they do???..dang right!!! but if it gets to be rarity...do we change it???
Bisonguy06 wrote:justplayalready wrote:Bisonguy06 wrote:I hope that people go back and read every post on this thread and all the other threads about 3 classes before we go any further with this topic.
For those who support a 3 class system, I would also recommend waiting until after the state title game to see what kind of evidence you have, if any. Right now, we are at 6 years in a row where a small public high school has advanced to the state B boys basketball championship game. (Parshall '07, Dakota Prairie '08, Turtle Lake-Mercer '09, Berthold '10, North Star '11 and '12, if my memory is correct)
Is last year a fluke or the start of the norm??? Do the big B's have a competitive advantage over the small B's??? How many of the above named teams were "out of gas" in the champ game against a big B??? half???I would argue Beulah had a competitive advantage over North Star due to depth that surfaced over a three night in a row tourney...of course this isn't enough to talk changing classes. But will we start to see B's that go 8-9 deep, all upperclassmen & a talented soph or two with a full 15 roster??? Right now the small public's can compete on one night. night two a bit less???? night three less and less???
Smalls will always get to the B...but will they run it playing 5-6 with frosh and sophs??? Would it be special when they do???..dang right!!! but if it gets to be rarity...do we change it???
This is frustrating.
Pair up any two high schools for a basketball game. The larger school, by the numbers, will likely have more depth. This has been true forever and will be true forever. It's logic, it's common sense. Hillsboro had more depth than Epping in their legendary championship game. Hillsboro won a great game. Fast forward to the present and Beulah has more depth than North Star. Beulah won a great championship game.
Again, we are at six years in a row with a small public school reaching the state championship game in class B boys basketball, with North Star as a favorite to make it seven in a row. Parshall and North Star won state championships recently. So did the Beach girls and the Kidder County girls. If we had a Big B vs. Big B state championship game this year, that would truly be the 'fluke' or the exception, not the rule.
Your last question reads, "Smalls will always get to the B... but if it gets to be rarity, do we change it?"
It's not a rarity. Let's not change it. If it gets to be a rarity (and you'd need multiple years of evidence to reverse the trend), let's talk.
justplayalready wrote:Bisonguy06 wrote:justplayalready wrote:Bisonguy06 wrote:I hope that people go back and read every post on this thread and all the other threads about 3 classes before we go any further with this topic.
For those who support a 3 class system, I would also recommend waiting until after the state title game to see what kind of evidence you have, if any. Right now, we are at 6 years in a row where a small public high school has advanced to the state B boys basketball championship game. (Parshall '07, Dakota Prairie '08, Turtle Lake-Mercer '09, Berthold '10, North Star '11 and '12, if my memory is correct)
Is last year a fluke or the start of the norm??? Do the big B's have a competitive advantage over the small B's??? How many of the above named teams were "out of gas" in the champ game against a big B??? half???I would argue Beulah had a competitive advantage over North Star due to depth that surfaced over a three night in a row tourney...of course this isn't enough to talk changing classes. But will we start to see B's that go 8-9 deep, all upperclassmen & a talented soph or two with a full 15 roster??? Right now the small public's can compete on one night. night two a bit less???? night three less and less???
Smalls will always get to the B...but will they run it playing 5-6 with frosh and sophs??? Would it be special when they do???..dang right!!! but if it gets to be rarity...do we change it???
This is frustrating.
Pair up any two high schools for a basketball game. The larger school, by the numbers, will likely have more depth. This has been true forever and will be true forever. It's logic, it's common sense. Hillsboro had more depth than Epping in their legendary championship game. Hillsboro won a great game. Fast forward to the present and Beulah has more depth than North Star. Beulah won a great championship game.
Again, we are at six years in a row with a small public school reaching the state championship game in class B boys basketball, with North Star as a favorite to make it seven in a row. Parshall and North Star won state championships recently. So did the Beach girls and the Kidder County girls. If we had a Big B vs. Big B state championship game this year, that would truly be the 'fluke' or the exception, not the rule.
Your last question reads, "Smalls will always get to the B... but if it gets to be rarity, do we change it?"
It's not a rarity. Let's not change it. If it gets to be a rarity (and you'd need multiple years of evidence to reverse the trend), let's talk.
That's why I was playing devil's advocate with my questions...The B is fine right now, no need to change...It's a fact we wont' see the 8 "best" B teams there this year or any year...but as fans it doesn't take away from the product on and off the court...my concern is will there be a trend of the Big B's west of Highway 3 getting bigger, with the small B's east getting smaller(other than the GF & Fargo suburbs) and will this affect the "B"??? Are we seeing more David v. Goliath matchups at the B??? Personally I would like to see more of the small publics "Davids" and less of the Big B's and Privates kept at a balance..I worry we will start to consistently see an unbalance with less "Davids"
disclaimer - This is my selfish point of view as a fan of the "b"
Mike Ditka wrote:Exactly ND so if they had to move up because of enrollment it would be unfair to them....a reason now some of the bigger schools like Watford may be interested in change.
bborbust wrote:I say leave it alone. Playing in a state tournament should be a privilege and achieved only by hard work and determination not by parents that just want to see little tommy at the state tourney so that it reflects on them they were great parents. I have kids that play ball and I think it should be harder for them to go. Parents in this society are at the point where they are just giving their children everything without hard work and dedication. I disagree, if my kids haven't worked hard enough and dedicated themselves to the sport and their team, they don't belong at a state tourney unless they are there to spectate. Just my opinion.
classB4ever wrote:bborbust wrote:I say leave it alone. Playing in a state tournament should be a privilege and achieved only by hard work and determination not by parents that just want to see little tommy at the state tourney so that it reflects on them they were great parents. I have kids that play ball and I think it should be harder for them to go. Parents in this society are at the point where they are just giving their children everything without hard work and dedication. I disagree, if my kids haven't worked hard enough and dedicated themselves to the sport and their team, they don't belong at a state tourney unless they are there to spectate. Just my opinion.
With all due respect, your post makes it sound like every player that isn't playing at the state, didn't work hard enough or isn't dedicated enough. Depending on what team you have the benefit of playing for, I would certainly be willing to bet there are many a hard working, dedicated players spectating at the state tournament while others, who possibly could have put in much less time, are there playing on more dominant teams. 2 cents.
classB4ever wrote:"Cloan" Pat Riley, Phil Jackson and Eddie Beyer and roll them all up into one. If you don't have some horses in the stable, it doesn't matter. That's the bottom "lime".
winner-within wrote:classB4ever wrote:"Cloan" Pat Riley, Phil Jackson and Eddie Beyer and roll them all up into one. If you don't have some horses in the stable, it doesn't matter. That's the bottom "lime".
Thats right....you don't bring donkeys to the Kentucky derby..........but I could make a Boarder Collie retrieve a pheasant....before some could take a Champion bloodline Golden Retriever & do the same
sportsnut5 wrote:We do not need 3 classes for the same reason not everyone needs a ribbon. Yes, in many small schools the reality is that getting to state is not a realistic goal most years. In region 7, when you get that group of dedicated and talented kids in your small school, you have to take advantage of it and beat a Beulah, Trinity, or Hazen. There will be very few times that all 3 of those teams will be down, but that is what makes athletics fun. Competitors want to compete and win or lose they will live with it, but it is the competition that drives them; not a trip to a state tournament.
As for building a program, there are many great programs out there where a .500 season is most typical, but every 5-6 years they have a run at the regional championship. The coaching fraternity knows which coaches can be taken advantage of and which you know will be fundamentally sound each and every time you play them regardless of the talent level of their players. We have all known coaches who get to the state tournament despite their coaching ability, and we all have known coaches that have never been there but are great, great coaches. We cannot judge our coaches and programs by just wins and loses. They must be judged also by their character and how hard they work at their craft. Do they give their athletes their best chance at winning? That is what is important. Coaches can only control how their kids play. They cannot control the fact that sometimes the opposite team is also well coached and just had better players.
North Dakota does not need a 3 class system. It needs to continue to produce hard working dedicated student-athletes. All athletes would love the opportunity to play in a state tournament, but it needs to remain a goal that when achieved means something. We need to continue teaching our kids to compete for the sense of pride, not for the ribbon.
winner-within wrote:Then the privates could open up the doors to more Catholics or Lutherans and pump up their enrollments to compete with the schools who consolidate up.....and the ones that are froze in Class A as we speak.
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