why not add a class?

[winner-within]

So many of these students know one another now days with facebook and twitter ....with this said I think the blending of towns and society would come easier than years ago........
one of my biggest gripes is playing in Gyms up here that should be closed for games and used just for practices.
but like Ive said before I would be open to 1 class before 3........and I also would be open to all 11 man football
we cant exclusify basketball

[justplayalready]

I hope that people go back and read every post on this thread and all the other threads about 3 classes before we go any further with this topic.

For those who support a 3 class system, I would also recommend waiting until after the state title game to see what kind of evidence you have, if any. Right now, we are at 6 years in a row where a small public high school has advanced to the state B boys basketball championship game. (Parshall '07, Dakota Prairie '08, Turtle Lake-Mercer '09, Berthold '10, North Star '11 and '12, if my memory is correct)

Is last year a fluke or the start of the norm??? Do the big B's have a competitive advantage over the small B's??? How many of the above named teams were "out of gas" in the champ game against a big B??? half???I would argue Beulah had a competitive advantage over North Star due to depth that surfaced over a three night in a row tourney...of course this isn't enough to talk changing classes. But will we start to see B's that go 8-9 deep, all upperclassmen & a talented soph or two with a full 15 roster??? Right now the small public's can compete on one night. night two a bit less???? night three less and less???

Smalls will always get to the B...but will they run it playing 5-6 with frosh and sophs??? Would it be special when they do???..dang right!!! but if it gets to be rarity...do we change it???

[newkidontheblock]

I think we agree on certain parts of your plan, but instead of mass consolidation a simple and trial period of lowering the class A cut line to 175, then those big schools (ie Trinity and Beulah) would be sweating, and the only reason I say that we should lower the cut line to 175 is this.. It is much easier to find a group of 8-10 kids in a school of 300 to compete with a school of 1200 than it is for a school of 80 to compete with a school of 300, and i've said this from the start.

According the the enrollments the NDHSAA makes available, Trinity would still be Class B if you moved the line to 175. I guess there goes your plan for revenge.

[The Schwab]

Plan for revenge? Not at all

[Bisonguy06]

I hope that people go back and read every post on this thread and all the other threads about 3 classes before we go any further with this topic.

For those who support a 3 class system, I would also recommend waiting until after the state title game to see what kind of evidence you have, if any. Right now, we are at 6 years in a row where a small public high school has advanced to the state B boys basketball championship game. (Parshall '07, Dakota Prairie '08, Turtle Lake-Mercer '09, Berthold '10, North Star '11 and '12, if my memory is correct)

Is last year a fluke or the start of the norm??? Do the big B's have a competitive advantage over the small B's??? How many of the above named teams were "out of gas" in the champ game against a big B??? half???I would argue Beulah had a competitive advantage over North Star due to depth that surfaced over a three night in a row tourney...of course this isn't enough to talk changing classes. But will we start to see B's that go 8-9 deep, all upperclassmen & a talented soph or two with a full 15 roster??? Right now the small public's can compete on one night. night two a bit less???? night three less and less???

Smalls will always get to the B...but will they run it playing 5-6 with frosh and sophs??? Would it be special when they do???..dang right!!! but if it gets to be rarity...do we change it???

This is frustrating.

Pair up any two high schools for a basketball game. The larger school, by the numbers, will likely have more depth. This has been true forever and will be true forever. It's logic, it's common sense. Hillsboro had more depth than Epping in their legendary championship game. Hillsboro won a great game. Fast forward to the present and Beulah has more depth than North Star. Beulah won a great championship game.

Again, we are at six years in a row with a small public school reaching the state championship game in class B boys basketball, with North Star as a favorite to make it seven in a row. Parshall and North Star won state championships recently. So did the Beach girls and the Kidder County girls. If we had a Big B vs. Big B state championship game this year, that would truly be the 'fluke' or the exception, not the rule.

Your last question reads, "Smalls will always get to the B... but if it gets to be rarity, do we change it?"

It's not a rarity. Let's not change it. If it gets to be a rarity (and you'd need multiple years of evidence to reverse the trend), let's talk.

[bborbust]

I say leave it alone. Playing in a state tournament should be a privilege and achieved only by hard work and determination not by parents that just want to see little tommy at the state tourney so that it reflects on them they were great parents. I have kids that play ball and I think it should be harder for them to go. Parents in this society are at the point where they are just giving their children everything without hard work and dedication. I disagree, if my kids haven't worked hard enough and dedicated themselves to the sport and their team, they don't belong at a state tourney unless they are there to spectate. Just my opinion.

[justplayalready]

I hope that people go back and read every post on this thread and all the other threads about 3 classes before we go any further with this topic.

For those who support a 3 class system, I would also recommend waiting until after the state title game to see what kind of evidence you have, if any. Right now, we are at 6 years in a row where a small public high school has advanced to the state B boys basketball championship game. (Parshall '07, Dakota Prairie '08, Turtle Lake-Mercer '09, Berthold '10, North Star '11 and '12, if my memory is correct)

Is last year a fluke or the start of the norm??? Do the big B's have a competitive advantage over the small B's??? How many of the above named teams were "out of gas" in the champ game against a big B??? half???I would argue Beulah had a competitive advantage over North Star due to depth that surfaced over a three night in a row tourney...of course this isn't enough to talk changing classes. But will we start to see B's that go 8-9 deep, all upperclassmen & a talented soph or two with a full 15 roster??? Right now the small public's can compete on one night. night two a bit less???? night three less and less???

Smalls will always get to the B...but will they run it playing 5-6 with frosh and sophs??? Would it be special when they do???..dang right!!! but if it gets to be rarity...do we change it???

This is frustrating.

Pair up any two high schools for a basketball game. The larger school, by the numbers, will likely have more depth. This has been true forever and will be true forever. It's logic, it's common sense. Hillsboro had more depth than Epping in their legendary championship game. Hillsboro won a great game. Fast forward to the present and Beulah has more depth than North Star. Beulah won a great championship game.

Again, we are at six years in a row with a small public school reaching the state championship game in class B boys basketball, with North Star as a favorite to make it seven in a row. Parshall and North Star won state championships recently. So did the Beach girls and the Kidder County girls. If we had a Big B vs. Big B state championship game this year, that would truly be the 'fluke' or the exception, not the rule.

Your last question reads, "Smalls will always get to the B... but if it gets to be rarity, do we change it?"

It's not a rarity. Let's not change it. If it gets to be a rarity (and you'd need multiple years of evidence to reverse the trend), let's talk.

That's why I was playing devil's advocate with my questions...The B is fine right now, no need to change...It's a fact we wont' see the 8 "best" B teams there this year or any year...but as fans it doesn't take away from the product on and off the court...my concern is will there be a trend of the Big B's west of Highway 3 getting bigger, with the small B's east getting smaller(other than the GF & Fargo suburbs) and will this affect the "B"??? Are we seeing more David v. Goliath matchups at the B??? Personally I would like to see more of the small publics "Davids" and less of the Big B's and Privates kept at a balance..I worry we will start to consistently see an unbalance with less "Davids"

disclaimer - This is my selfish point of view as a fan of the "b"

[NDplayin]

I wouldn't press the panic button on the oil boom just yet. Look at Watford City as a great example- exploding enrollment right in the center of the boom, but they are fielding one of their most unsuccessful basketball teams in recent memory. The trend we are seeing is that the oil students are not typically "players." If fact, I can't think of one, single basketball team this year whose success can be attributed to an oil boom athlete.

[Mike Ditka]

Exactly ND so if they had to move up because of enrollment it would be unfair to them....a reason now some of the bigger schools like Watford may be interested in change.

[Bisonguy06]

I hope that people go back and read every post on this thread and all the other threads about 3 classes before we go any further with this topic.

For those who support a 3 class system, I would also recommend waiting until after the state title game to see what kind of evidence you have, if any. Right now, we are at 6 years in a row where a small public high school has advanced to the state B boys basketball championship game. (Parshall '07, Dakota Prairie '08, Turtle Lake-Mercer '09, Berthold '10, North Star '11 and '12, if my memory is correct)

Is last year a fluke or the start of the norm??? Do the big B's have a competitive advantage over the small B's??? How many of the above named teams were "out of gas" in the champ game against a big B??? half???I would argue Beulah had a competitive advantage over North Star due to depth that surfaced over a three night in a row tourney...of course this isn't enough to talk changing classes. But will we start to see B's that go 8-9 deep, all upperclassmen & a talented soph or two with a full 15 roster??? Right now the small public's can compete on one night. night two a bit less???? night three less and less???

Smalls will always get to the B...but will they run it playing 5-6 with frosh and sophs??? Would it be special when they do???..dang right!!! but if it gets to be rarity...do we change it???

This is frustrating.

Pair up any two high schools for a basketball game. The larger school, by the numbers, will likely have more depth. This has been true forever and will be true forever. It's logic, it's common sense. Hillsboro had more depth than Epping in their legendary championship game. Hillsboro won a great game. Fast forward to the present and Beulah has more depth than North Star. Beulah won a great championship game.

Again, we are at six years in a row with a small public school reaching the state championship game in class B boys basketball, with North Star as a favorite to make it seven in a row. Parshall and North Star won state championships recently. So did the Beach girls and the Kidder County girls. If we had a Big B vs. Big B state championship game this year, that would truly be the 'fluke' or the exception, not the rule.

Your last question reads, "Smalls will always get to the B... but if it gets to be rarity, do we change it?"

It's not a rarity. Let's not change it. If it gets to be a rarity (and you'd need multiple years of evidence to reverse the trend), let's talk.

That's why I was playing devil's advocate with my questions...The B is fine right now, no need to change...It's a fact we wont' see the 8 "best" B teams there this year or any year...but as fans it doesn't take away from the product on and off the court...my concern is will there be a trend of the Big B's west of Highway 3 getting bigger, with the small B's east getting smaller(other than the GF & Fargo suburbs) and will this affect the "B"??? Are we seeing more David v. Goliath matchups at the B??? Personally I would like to see more of the small publics "Davids" and less of the Big B's and Privates kept at a balance..I worry we will start to consistently see an unbalance with less "Davids"

disclaimer - This is my selfish point of view as a fan of the "b"

When you talk about the west, some (but not all) of the Goliaths of class B are growing. Some of the Davids are growing, too. Ray, Tioga, Berthold, Divide County, Powers Lake, South Heart/Belfield/Billings County (Heart River), New England, Killdeer, and on and on.

I think you'd find that most of the growth is taking place with elementary enrollment, with less of an impact at the high school at this time (as someone has pointed out), but maybe a trickle effect on the way as the elementary kids move up.

The tide of the oil boom is lifting a lot of boats right now and is keeping a few others from sinking. It's not just lifting the Big B's. And don't forget the possibility that a couple of the Big B's could grow their way right out of class B altogether. Our two class system isn't broken. There is an enrollment cutoff (325 in grades 9-12) and a built-in solution to the "problems" that are being described.

[Bisonguy06]

Exactly ND so if they had to move up because of enrollment it would be unfair to them....a reason now some of the bigger schools like Watford may be interested in change.

Want to talk about unfair?

Beulah grew its way into class A basketball and battled the best they could while enrollment stayed above the A/B cutoff. They played with pride, struggled at times, and had some success at other times.

If Watford City grows above 325, the plan should be the same for them. If they get a bailout plan and a 3 class system, now that would be unfair.

[classB4ever]

I say leave it alone. Playing in a state tournament should be a privilege and achieved only by hard work and determination not by parents that just want to see little tommy at the state tourney so that it reflects on them they were great parents. I have kids that play ball and I think it should be harder for them to go. Parents in this society are at the point where they are just giving their children everything without hard work and dedication. I disagree, if my kids haven't worked hard enough and dedicated themselves to the sport and their team, they don't belong at a state tourney unless they are there to spectate. Just my opinion.

With all due respect, your post makes it sound like every player that isn't playing at the state, didn't work hard enough or isn't dedicated enough. Depending on what team you have the benefit of playing for, I would certainly be willing to bet there are many a hard working, dedicated players spectating at the state tournament while others, who possibly could have put in much less time, are there playing on more dominant teams. 2 cents.

[winner-within]

I say leave it alone. Playing in a state tournament should be a privilege and achieved only by hard work and determination not by parents that just want to see little tommy at the state tourney so that it reflects on them they were great parents. I have kids that play ball and I think it should be harder for them to go. Parents in this society are at the point where they are just giving their children everything without hard work and dedication. I disagree, if my kids haven't worked hard enough and dedicated themselves to the sport and their team, they don't belong at a state tourney unless they are there to spectate. Just my opinion.

With all due respect, your post makes it sound like every player that isn't playing at the state, didn't work hard enough or isn't dedicated enough. Depending on what team you have the benefit of playing for, I would certainly be willing to bet there are many a hard working, dedicated players spectating at the state tournament while others, who possibly could have put in much less time, are there playing on more dominant teams. 2 cents.

you could bet that...and it might even be true, but the thread is "three Class's" and the bottom lime is, the reason most want it, is exactly "what borbust" is talking about...good post borbust!
Cloan a few coaches (the ones who truly do it thier way and parents respect it and leave it at that) in Class B and watch it change dramatically in three years with the same enrollments as we speak...

[classB4ever]

"Cloan" Pat Riley, Phil Jackson and Eddie Beyer and roll them all up into one. If you don't have some horses in the stable, it doesn't matter. That's the bottom "lime".

[winner-within]

"Cloan" Pat Riley, Phil Jackson and Eddie Beyer and roll them all up into one. If you don't have some horses in the stable, it doesn't matter. That's the bottom "lime".

Thats right....you don't bring donkeys to the Kentucky derby..........but I could make a Boarder Collie retrieve a pheasant....before some could take a Champion bloodline Golden Retriever & do the same

[NDplayin]

The thread is named "why not add a class?" Here's my answer: Because their is no objective based reason to support the idea.

Notice how the supporter of the 3 class system avoids Bisonguy's fact that there has been a small, public school in the B championship game for 6 years in a row and very likely to be 7 soon. They avoid it like the plague because facts are the plague killing their argument. Rather than base their case on facts and logic, they hide behind propaganda to cover up their purely emotion based desire to institute a system in which they believe they might succeed without having to put in the long and tedious work of building a program.

There are some indisputable factors that need to be understood immediately
1: Enrollment is only one of the many factors that determine a teams ability to succeed.
2: Of all the factors referred to above, enrollment is the only objective factor which can be used to separate classes
3: Just because enrollment is the only objective factor, it cannot be the only one to blame when one team loses to another. Enrollment should not be used as the loan scapegoat of failure.

That being said, the question must then be asked, "At what point is an enrollment gap large enough that it can be blamed for a team's lack of success?" I have a tough time accepting any answer other than, "An enrollment gap is too large when the weight of all the other factors combined cannot be expected to overcome the enrollment factor."

Here are just some of the countless objective reasons that I know the enrollment gap provided by our current system is reasonable:
The most consistently successful Class B boys program of the last 5 years is North Star (enrollment 89).
The most consistently successful Class B girls program of the last 5 years is Beach (enrollment 110). Whenever one of the bigger Class A schools gripes about having to play weak teams like Valley City and Williston, they don't even mention Fargo Shanley- which has a smaller enrollment but is successful.

Questions:
Why are Beach girls so successful and Beach boys so unsuccessful?
North Star is at the top again- how come I never hear anything about North Star's girls?
Why do I hear even less about Beulah's girls?
How come Minot Our Redeemers and Williston Trinity Christian aren't at State as often as Shiloh Christian and Oak Grove?

The answers to these questions cannot have nothing to do with either enrollment of private/public or the class system. They can be answered with coaches and athletes putting in the years and the work to build a program. The current system is fair, the current system works, the current system is balanced. If you're not happy with your team's success it may be easy to blame enrollment, but that isn't the truth of where your problem really lies. Build a program.

[classB4ever]

"Cloan" Pat Riley, Phil Jackson and Eddie Beyer and roll them all up into one. If you don't have some horses in the stable, it doesn't matter. That's the bottom "lime".

Thats right....you don't bring donkeys to the Kentucky derby..........but I could make a Boarder Collie retrieve a pheasant....before some could take a Champion bloodline Golden Retriever & do the same

I like Going back to the original post, you are the coach I would pick to roam the State B stands and pick out 8 players there from across the state spectating. I am guessing in one week, your team would be capable of beating a number of teams playing at the tournament. Horses, collies, golden retrievers, or donkeys, wouldn't matter, there would be more then 8 very talented, dedicated, hard working kids in the stands to choose from. Wasn't trying to hijack the thread.

[gominers]

ND nailed this one the head

[sportsnut5]

We do not need 3 classes for the same reason not everyone needs a ribbon. Yes, in many small schools the reality is that getting to state is not a realistic goal most years. In region 7, when you get that group of dedicated and talented kids in your small school, you have to take advantage of it and beat a Beulah, Trinity, or Hazen. There will be very few times that all 3 of those teams will be down, but that is what makes athletics fun. Competitors want to compete and win or lose they will live with it, but it is the competition that drives them; not a trip to a state tournament.
As for building a program, there are many great programs out there where a .500 season is most typical, but every 5-6 years they have a run at the regional championship. The coaching fraternity knows which coaches can be taken advantage of and which you know will be fundamentally sound each and every time you play them regardless of the talent level of their players. We have all known coaches who get to the state tournament despite their coaching ability, and we all have known coaches that have never been there but are great, great coaches. We cannot judge our coaches and programs by just wins and loses. They must be judged also by their character and how hard they work at their craft. Do they give their athletes their best chance at winning? That is what is important. Coaches can only control how their kids play. They cannot control the fact that sometimes the opposite team is also well coached and just had better players.
North Dakota does not need a 3 class system. It needs to continue to produce hard working dedicated student-athletes. All athletes would love the opportunity to play in a state tournament, but it needs to remain a goal that when achieved means something. We need to continue teaching our kids to compete for the sense of pride, not for the ribbon.

[BB11]

We do not need 3 classes for the same reason not everyone needs a ribbon. Yes, in many small schools the reality is that getting to state is not a realistic goal most years. In region 7, when you get that group of dedicated and talented kids in your small school, you have to take advantage of it and beat a Beulah, Trinity, or Hazen. There will be very few times that all 3 of those teams will be down, but that is what makes athletics fun. Competitors want to compete and win or lose they will live with it, but it is the competition that drives them; not a trip to a state tournament.
As for building a program, there are many great programs out there where a .500 season is most typical, but every 5-6 years they have a run at the regional championship. The coaching fraternity knows which coaches can be taken advantage of and which you know will be fundamentally sound each and every time you play them regardless of the talent level of their players. We have all known coaches who get to the state tournament despite their coaching ability, and we all have known coaches that have never been there but are great, great coaches. We cannot judge our coaches and programs by just wins and loses. They must be judged also by their character and how hard they work at their craft. Do they give their athletes their best chance at winning? That is what is important. Coaches can only control how their kids play. They cannot control the fact that sometimes the opposite team is also well coached and just had better players.
North Dakota does not need a 3 class system. It needs to continue to produce hard working dedicated student-athletes. All athletes would love the opportunity to play in a state tournament, but it needs to remain a goal that when achieved means something. We need to continue teaching our kids to compete for the sense of pride, not for the ribbon.

I have no idea who you are, but that was one of the most intelligent posts I have ever read on this sight. I agree wholeheartedly with your statements. Very sensible and well-put.

[Indy5]

Then the privates could open up the doors to more Catholics or Lutherans and pump up their enrollments to compete with the schools who consolidate up.....and the ones that are froze in Class A as we speak.

Can everyone in the world stop being idiots and actually pay attention sometime when someone says what I'm about to say. Private schools do not limit enrollment. I'll repeat, private schools do not limit enrollment. These schools are almost all in the lower half of the enrollments. Some are running out of kids as we speak. They take anyone who will come. And it's not like they are quick to expell or anything like that either. They are desperate for kids.

[Bisonguy06]

We could put together a pretty long list of small schools that are expected to contend for a Regional championship this year on the boys side.

I haven't even been following the season all that closely, but I know that Maple Valley will be in the hunt in Region 1 and Cavalier in Region 2.

Region 3 doesn't have a truly "Big" class B school in it, so they'll be sending a small school as their representative. Right now, tiny Strasburg-Zeeland is undefeated.

Region 4 contenders include North Star and Four Winds.

Region 5 has Turtle Lake-Mercer as a slight favorite right now, and Berthold will be in the hunt in Region 6 again.

We know that the big schools are favored in Region 7, but Heart River is capable of pulling an upset and Mott-Regent is coming on strong.

Trenton and Powers Lake are the favorites in Region 8.

Look at the landscape. It is littered with competitive small schools.

[Bisonguy06]

And here's a quick list of small school contenders on the girls side:

Maple Valley, Napoleon, Hillsboro, Thompson, Northern Cass, Benson County, Ray, Midkota, Parshall, Beach, Grant County.

That's a very healthy list and a very different list than the boys. Hmm... maybe we do have some competitive balance in class B basketball???

[balla45]

How much of this is competitive balance and how much of it is star power?

[Bisonguy06]

Doesnt matter what you call it. The point is that many, many small schools can compete in B. It can be done with a solid starting five or with just one or two stars.