Fixing the problems

Class B Boys
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Postby Wild Wolves » Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:25 am

Initially I would have to agree with the private school arguement.  However, the real issue is creating a fair playing field for student-athletes.  This is a bigger question than private v. public in sports.  Look at the opportunities for kids educationally in the larger towns v. rural areas.   Everytime I drive by Fargo North's school and see that something is being added (pool, theater, FB field) it becomes clear that students will have opportunities that will not be afforded to them in a rural community. 

Or do rural communities really have more opportunities?  What percentage of class B kids are in multiple activities?  How about class A?  Beyond sports?  How about class offerings?  The options for a class A kid are far greater.  The academic attention that a class B kid gets because of low teacher to student ratios can make for some very good students.

 

Where is the equity?  I wish I knew the answer?
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Postby Double Bonus » Wed Mar 22, 2006 5:49 am

There are advantages to living in a bigger town and there are advantages to living in a small town. You can't have it both ways and life isn't fair. You just have to take advantage of the opportunities you have and now dwell on the ones you don't have.
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Postby Indians Alumni » Wed Mar 22, 2006 6:00 am

I agree with both of you on that.  I mean it is true that small class B schools have the smaller ratio, but they also do not have the resources to pay teachers to come in.  So some may get short changed in the quaility of teachers, Class A you may have quaility teachers, but larger ratio of student to teacher! 

This does not apply to athletics sometimes.  Most Class B schools do not hold try-outs, where kids are cut, unless you have the bigger Class B schools.  But most do not!  Class A schools have the advantage of multiple coaches, and sports specific.  Not taking away from any coaches.  Just stating that some schools cannot draw a quaility coach due to $$$!  Bigger schools have the money to get the coaches and they can also afford to have asst coaches.  Most Class B schools have a Head coach and an Asst/Trainer.  You look at Class A Schools they have a full coaching staff of 3 and a trainer. 

When it is all said and done, it all comes down to the quality of teachers and coaches in the school system. 
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Postby jimmie44 » Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:18 am

This is a toughie.  Kids in the big towns generally have more availability of things such as weight rooms, rec centers, etc. which will obviously help them become better athletes.  But these kids don't usually play multiple sports.  Rural kids on the other hand often times play 2-3 sports.  Although they don't have all the advantages of city kids, the techniques they use in one sport carry over to their others, so they get tons of practice on these things. 

One example: shuffling

      Football:  shuffling on the line

      Basketball:  shuffling on defense

      Baseball:  shuffling to a ground ball

    I'm sure there are many others, but this was the first example that came to mind. 
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Postby Wild Wolves » Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:09 am

I realize that you have to do the best you can as a high school athlete.  I am no longer an athlete and no longer in a small school. 

So as an adult, who can see that there is a discrepency between the two, not only on the athletic field but also in the classrroom, what can we do to give both groups all the advantages.

Can't there be smaller classes in class A schools and can't there be more electives in class b schools?  Is there a way to provide more coaching to class B kids and more opportunities to participate to class A kids.

A friend stated that Fargo South had requested to have two football teams compete at the varsity level and were rejected.  I don't know if this is true, but what would it hurt to have another team?  Their second team could compete with at least the middle of the pack in class A.

 

 
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Postby bigpoppakdog » Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:23 pm

Isn't the main issue when it comes to bismarckshiloh, minot ryan, williston trinity chistian, dickinson trinity, and the Fargo school is the fact that the students have the option to go to any high school in that city and the small towns you don't have that choice because of open enrollment issues?

I don't think private vs public is an issue...or more use of facilities a viable issue either...If Richardton taylor, glen ullin, hebron, mott, new salem allowed their best athletes to come together for one team would Dickinson Trinity have one their region 6 years in a row? I know years ago when this site allowed unedited comments there is ALOT of anger towards dickinson trinity, and I believe it really is this type of issue that I mentioned...not public vs private....
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Postby NDSportsFan » Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:38 pm

Unfortunately people are always going to rip on a school they think has an unfair advantage, that is an issue we will probably always have here. 

On a side note this website is completely different from the previous ndpreps site.  As the creator and administrator I never even saw the other site.  We have a good group of moderators here that wish to use this board to promote our states athletes and draw attention to the subjects and topics that interest us.  Hopefully we can keep things pointed in that direction for the benefit of all the members.
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Postby scruffy » Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:12 pm

There are pro's and con's to both big and small schools.  Hopefully the student and I want to emphasize the word STUDENT  will make the best of it.  The one key nobody has mentioned yet is the role of the parents.  Without strong parent support it doesn't matter how good  a schools faculty is, that school or program is destined to suffer.  I firmly believe the educational process begans at home.
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Postby bigpoppakdog » Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:15 pm

You know, Mayport CG seems to always be at state, yet nobody rips them...I haven't seen one posting ripping Mayport...another question...when Dickinson Trinity looks at all their Region Championship plaques and state plaques is there a feeling of unfullfillment due to the the fact they have won this region for so many years after coming from Class A to Class B?
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Postby scruffy » Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:43 pm

No, Trinity looks at their regional banners with pride.  The first five years THS played class "B" ball. we couldn't compete!  If I remember, I think it took three years before the boys team won half their games.  We didn't began to win consistently until 1997 or 1998.  Football is another story, the Titans have always been able to field a pretty competitive team
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Postby bigpoppakdog » Thu Apr 20, 2006 5:09 pm

OH...)i didn't know that...i thought Trinity has won 7 out of the last 8 years in bb....and that was immediately after they switched...guess i need to research a little more...
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Postby Wild Wolves » Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:16 pm

A co-worker suggested that all athletic activities be moved to club sports.  We had a lengthy discussion on the topic and I have to confess that the more we talked the more I liked the idea.
What would school be like if students were in school to learn and that was the focus.  No missing school for activities because the school didn't sponsor them.  I mentioned speech and the various music programs. And we discussed making those things club activities as well.

This is probably better suited for another board but this is where it started. 

Perhaps this would be an opening for class B towns to create teams that could compete with class A towns or class b schools in class A towns.
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Postby crazy » Fri Apr 21, 2006 2:00 pm

Tiger Pride the only problem with that is that even if the school didnt sponser these sports kids would still leave to go to them soo i dont think that would change anything.
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Postby Wild Wolves » Fri Apr 21, 2006 6:36 pm

Schools would have the chance to attach consequences for missing school.  Or better yet reward those who don't miss.
Most importantly the school could rent out facilities and not be paying for uniforms, coaches, transportation and officials.  I think that would make a difference.  Also there would be no need for eligibility issues. 
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Postby ndfan » Fri Apr 21, 2006 6:47 pm

[user=74]Tiger Pride[/user] wrote:
Schools would have the chance to attach consequences for missing school.  Or better yet reward those who don't miss.
Most importantly the school could rent out facilities and not be paying for uniforms, coaches, transportation and officials.  I think that would make a difference.  Also there would be no need for eligibility issues. 


Question: Who would be in charge of these club sports? Who would run it state wide? I could see some activities doing it but i don't see sports like Football, basketball, or baseball doing that and a few others. Could possibly work for other sports. And no issues for eligibility rules??? Are you talking academic or Minor type eligibility?
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Postby scruffy » Fri Apr 21, 2006 7:16 pm

The real problem all schools in the the state have (except Fargo & Bismarck) is declining enrollment.  Sadly, I don't think this will turn around.  It sounds like a lot of us are wishing for the days in the 70's and 80's when a story like an Epping could happen.  Those days are gone forever.  It is scary to think what the class "B" landscape will look like ten years from now..
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Postby bballuvr » Fri Apr 21, 2006 7:47 pm

Tiger, please don't be swayed by the "club" sports idea. That is scary. Learning is the focus now. Sure, there is a small percentage of kids in EVERY school that aren't focused on learning. Sports would not be the only "distraction" however.
There are many others.

Also, 98%+ of coaches are certainly aware that education is the most important part of what is happening. If the grades are down, no play.

As far as missing school, that does not happen much. Maybe some with track and golf, a little with wrestling. Not much beyond that.

I've noticed that most people that would talk about "club" type sports are those who are not overly talented, those who can't handle losing, and/or those who do not like or see the benefit of competition, and/or those with kids that are not in the top talent group of a particular school or sport.  We are basically talking about intramurals here. Ick.

Do some people take sports too seriously? Sure. There will always be those that do. They are not a reason to initiate "club" sports.

The reality of sports and competition, the reality of dealing with winning and losing, the reality of learning how to handle emotions, the reality of understanding that it is just a game but is worth working your tail off to be as good as you can, the reality of excellent life expereinces, etc.....These realities, and many more, are why you never eliminate sports and competition.

I certainly mean no disrespect Tiger, but please don't buy the "club " sports idea at all. You must avoid that co-worker. He/she has too much influence on you. LOL
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Postby Wild Wolves » Sat Apr 22, 2006 1:50 pm

First Basketball, baseball and football as club sports.
How do you think baseball got started as a high school sport?
Basketball has so many traveling teams and tournaments before and after the regular season I don't think this would be a stretch at all.
Football, you got me on this one, with the only comparative marker being hockey.  Which is run to a certain extent at a club level already.  So I don't think that the club idea is that far fetched in these areas.
School time, I will use the month of April, and just using meets that the Bismarck schools would be going to there are four days in which students will miss classes from about 1:30 on.  They miss a day of school in April.  I agree not really a major issue.

Who decides eligibility?  That would be a question for member teams to consider.  I can imagine a board more like a park board than the NDHSAA.  The reason I say this is that NDHSAA is made up of superintendents and ADs.  Supers really have more important things to consider and AD's would be out of the picture.

I would agree with scruffy, as to missing the good old days of class B.  This also lends itself to the idea of comparing this to intramurals. 

Think about this for just a second, How many teams were there in 1970 playing basketball?  How about 1980? 90? 00?   Now as the number of teams has dropped so has the number of kids playing sports.  Yes I want more kids to play sports.  Do I want it to be a joke, heck NO. 

As to the statements about those liking club sports being those who aren't good , don't like losing, and don't think competetion is a good thing.  i think the opposite is true.  (I was fortunate enough to play HS-FB BB and run track, I also competed in Legion baseball, the only one that I didn't get to go to state in was BB, I also played college sports)  Find me one person who does like losing and you then have found a loser.  My kid isn't old enough to talk so I am not worried about that yet.
  What I am worried about is that they aren't going to have the same opportunities that I had to compete.  I din't say win i said compete.  How many kids get a chance to play four sports?

Wow I am full of hot air.  I could argue this point on numerous levels.
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Postby point/center » Sat Apr 22, 2006 4:50 pm

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Here's something guaranteed to ease your tension. Take your kids fishing. You spend 1:1 time with them. Nobody loses, yet everybody wins. Today we didnt catch a fish. BUT had a blast throwing rocks, casting, playing with worms...then went to the DQ. Does it get any better?
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Postby Wild Wolves » Sat Apr 22, 2006 5:49 pm

There is no way that was really written at 8:50 PM!
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Postby bballuvr » Sun Apr 23, 2006 3:42 am

Tiger Pride wrote:First Basketball, baseball and football as club sports.
How do you think baseball got started as a high school sport?
Basketball has so many traveling teams and tournaments before and after the regular season I don't think this would be a stretch at all.
Football, you got me on this one, with the only comparative marker being hockey.  Which is run to a certain extent at a club level already.  So I don't think that the club idea is that far fetched in these areas.
School time, I will use the month of April, and just using meets that the Bismarck schools would be going to there are four days in which students will miss classes from about 1:30 on.  They miss a day of school in April.  I agree not really a major issue.

Who decides eligibility?  That would be a question for member teams to consider.  I can imagine a board more like a park board than the NDHSAA.  The reason I say this is that NDHSAA is made up of superintendents and ADs.  Supers really have more important things to consider and AD's would be out of the picture.

I would agree with scruffy, as to missing the good old days of class B.  This also lends itself to the idea of comparing this to intramurals. 

Think about this for just a second, How many teams were there in 1970 playing basketball?  How about 1980? 90? 00?   Now as the number of teams has dropped so has the number of kids playing sports.  Yes I want more kids to play sports.  Do I want it to be a joke, heck NO. 

As to the statements about those liking club sports being those who aren't good , don't like losing, and don't think competetion is a good thing.  i think the opposite is true.  (I was fortunate enough to play HS-FB BB and run track, I also competed in Legion baseball, the only one that I didn't get to go to state in was BB, I also played college sports)  Find me one person who does like losing and you then have found a loser.  My kid isn't old enough to talk so I am not worried about that yet.
  What I am worried about is that they aren't going to have the same opportunities that I had to compete.  I din't say win i said compete.  How many kids get a chance to play four sports?

Wow I am full of hot air.  I could argue this point on numerous levels.


I guess I not sure what you mean by club sports. My experience  and understanding of club sports is to minimize or eliminate competition.

I didn't say "don't like losing",  I said" can't handle losing". BIG difference.

Regarding kids playing sports and number of teams, I lost you again. There are fewer people and fewer students. Unfortunate fact. There are still the same opportunities now as any time if not more with a couple more sports. There are many kids that participate in 4 sports.

As always, in Class B schools, the chance of competing in a larger number of sports is more likely due to size. I wasn't as good of an athlete as you, but played 3 sports. In a class A school, I may or may not have made varsity. That's life.

Why do you want to change the system? Kids ARE in school to learn. They do not miss much school at all for sports. If they do, what is the difference? They are responsible for the work and assignments.

No system is perfect, but the one we have is fine. There are great opportunities for our kids. From athletics, speech and drama, to music, etc. I think working to improve what we have is a better idea than my understanding of "CLUB" sports.

If I'm misunderstanding your reasoning for the Club idea, I apologize.

If I appear a bit sensitive, it is because I'm just a little wore out by my exposure to the angle of not keeping score and non-competetion philosophies. These are not productive ideas. They are not realistic. Young people should learn to strive for excellence. They should be in supportive enviroments where they are coached, taught, challenged, and supported as they grow and learn. They should be taught how to handle winning and losing with class, to respect teammates and opponents, to understand the it is a privelege to compete, and to realize that it is a game.

I would just say please don't water things down. Thanks
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Postby point/center » Sun Apr 23, 2006 3:46 am

Without the MONEY from school systems how would club sports stay afloat. Gas at 3$ gallon.

There is a reason that towns/schools pushed baseball to move into the sanctioned designation by their school, and it's called money. Plain and simple.
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Postby Wild Wolves » Sun Apr 23, 2006 5:32 am

How does legion baseball survive with $3 gas?
Why are our public tax dollars going to fund extra-curricular activities? I thought school was about learning?
Based only on traveling basketball teams, I think that there are plenty of sponsors out in the community that would fund the teams.
Just saw traveling teams in basketball in the Sunday paper.

Yes there are fewer kids in most Class B schools and there are fewer class B school.  But there are more kids at clas A schools.  The enrollment of places like Bismarck and Fargo have continued to increase and has there been an addition of schools or teams in those areas? 
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Postby point/center » Sun Apr 23, 2006 7:54 am

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Legion baseball does IT with MONEY from the Americna Legion? Who are these companies that will start writing the checks for 'club' activities on a WIDE scale?

With money comes influence...even now schools get frustrated with the NDHSAA regulations. What would it be like when Old Mill is sponsoring your kids BB program?

If Club is THE way to go....I am a true point/center
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Postby BBall dominator » Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:08 am

Ha not cool when the moderator makes fun of you anyways class B people are going to whine about getting killed each year by a private school so it doesn't really matter if we go to club system someone would whine about that how about we get a system where every team gets to go 28-0 then everyone would be happy
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