3 class proposal

[WalkingStick]

How does having Wahp, DL, VC, and WC in the largest class change anything for the top class?

DL boys would not be a guaranteed state championship team year in and year out. FW has been a better program over the last decade.

Those Minot schools aren't even in the same class.

Like I said above, get the 3-class plan passed and then make changes every two years, like football. If DL is winning the state titles every year, force them to move up. If HCV can't win a game allow them to move down.

But how do you allow movement up and down...will HCV girls be allowed in low class and their boys in the middle?? Moving up and down classes isn't going to be easy cause I could see the State saying if the boys are in the middle then so are the girls

I think they should allow HCV boys in the middle and the girls in B if the girls qualify. I could also see the state saying that isn't allowed.

Not quite the same, but you'll have schools in MN where the boys are in one section (region) and the girls are in another. The world doesn't end either.

Ada-Borup-West but they are both in Class A.

Another example...Oak Grove: their girls aren't a problem in Class B but the boys program is successful; girls aren't going to win many games in the middle class...boys should be successful. State (NDHSAA and all y'all) wouldn't allow their girls down.

Don't get me wrong...I want 3-classes, but a lot has to be worked out by the NDHSAA and I just don't see creative people there to get this done.

[packers21]

How does having Wahp, DL, VC, and WC in the largest class change anything for the top class?

DL boys would not be a guaranteed state championship team year in and year out. FW has been a better program over the last decade.

Those Minot schools aren't even in the same class.

Like I said above, get the 3-class plan passed and then make changes every two years, like football. If DL is winning the state titles every year, force them to move up. If HCV can't win a game allow them to move down.

Makes a huge difference in competitive balance in the middle class.

I would bet my life with this plan passes Ryan plays in the lowest class.

I would like the plan better if they allowed movement, but they wont. I would also like it more if they allowed different programs to (Boys/Girls) to play at different classes but it doesn't. It also doesn't even mention all of the other sports. And they want it to start next year. Good Luck

[BasketballMind]

https://www.hillsborobanner.com/news/article_55d88320-35b4-11ed-93ec-eb08a624b4d6.html

Of course HCV is opposed....which 8 teams will they kill by 40+ points a season? How will they be guaranteed a trip to state ever 2 or 3 years? How will they be a virtual lock every season to be in the region semifinal?

Ebbs and Flows of high school basketball never change. Here are the state tournament appearances by year by the two big bad boys teams in R1 and R2 right now. HCV and Kindred.

Kindred (2002, 2003, 2021, 2022) - Four times in 21 years with an 18 year break.

HCV (1993-CV, 1999 Hillsboro, 2017,2018, 2020) - So HCV went three out of four years after 6 years in their co-op. Hillsboro went 18 years without going and CV had waited 24 years.

Both programs went a generation of kids from birth to graduation without going back. If this was proposed 20 years ago, everyone would've said MPCG had to get out of Class B. They have a similar rate of appearances as Kindred/HCV does since then. (2002, 2003, 2014,2015)

This always finds a way back to being about boys basketball. There hasn't been 5 seconds of consideration on the girls side. If you compare HCV and Kindred in girls basketball right now, they're on complete opposite ends of the spectrum. These proposals don't allow movement based on where your program is at, which makes no sense. It's very specific math to get the privates out of boys basketball, and if they can get rid of the good boys programs from bigger Bs then they're fine with it. The 170 enrollment cutoff number to be considered a "small school" is as big as they could make it to get the big 4 private schools out. Even Bishop Ryan with all 90 of their kids on a 2x multiplier.

[Sparty48]

I think we need to at least try it for 3 years, try a 3 class system just to see what it looks like and how we could improve it. Like a trial run. Then some of the smaller schools that never really have a chance to even compete for a chance to go to state at least will have more of a positive outlook, and the teams/programs will actually get more kids to want to play instead of not coming out cause you have no shot to go far at the end of the season.
That is where the big schools thrive, they don’t care if kids don’t come out cause they already have extras that they can toss in, little schools need every kid they can find.

You look at the big schools in region 1, They are twice the size of the smaller schools, I mean even play 11 man football and their schools who played nine man you can’t even field a team how are you supposed to compete

[packers21]

Region 1 recent past

W/L wins the region
Richland wins it twice makes another title game appearance
Tri-State makes the semi-finals
Milnor semi-finals, wins state in 13
Enderlin makes a title game appearance

Does Kindred get a lot of girls out for Basketball?
How about Davies?

[BasketballMind]

This is teetering on the "everyone gets a trophy" philosophy. There isn't a good plan out there. The Class A schools are only thinking about themselves, but can play on the heart strings of the smaller schools to convince them that this third class is going to solve their problems. It won't solve anything and many "fringe" middle class schools are going to see their program numbers implode.

I think we need to at least try it for 3 years, try a 3 class system just to see what it looks like and how we could improve it. Like a trial run. Then some of the smaller schools that never really have a chance to even compete for a chance to go to state at least will have more of a positive outlook, and the teams/programs will actually get more kids to want to play instead of not coming out cause you have no shot to go far at the end of the season.
That is where the big schools thrive, they don’t care if kids don’t come out cause they already have extras that they can toss in, little schools need every kid they can find.

You look at the big schools in region 1, They are twice the size of the smaller schools, I mean even play 11 man football and their schools who played nine man you can’t even field a team how are you supposed to compete

[WalkingStick]

Valley City's plan is better for the reasoning behind creating it...they are about to be below the 325 threshold and don't feel they belong in Class B (which they don't) and don't belong in Class A (they don't); but they must belong somewhere; I just still see flaws to it

Sheyenne's plan was created to benefit the large schools and he was not shy about saying that...was never anything about the smaller schools ("even told me 'screw' the small schools we don't want to play VC anymore...we want more non-conference games"). That's NOT a plan for anyone that the plan is really needed for.

[packers21]

Valley City's plan is better for the reasoning behind creating it...they are about to be below the 325 threshold and don't feel they belong in Class B (which they don't) and don't belong in Class A (they don't); but they must belong somewhere.

Sheyenne's plan was created to benefit the large schools and he was not shy about saying that...was never anything about the smaller schools ("even told me 'screw' the small schools we don't want to play VC anymore...we want more non-conference games"). That's NOT a plan for anyone that the plan is really needed for.

Northstar is a great place

[Flying Wallenda]

Devils Lake's girls team has made the state 5 of the last 6 years and has one of the top class A programs in the state - what will they do in a middle class?

Oh yeah, this isn't about GBB......

[The Schwab]

Valley City's plan is better for the reasoning behind creating it...they are about to be below the 325 threshold and don't feel they belong in Class B (which they don't) and don't belong in Class A (they don't); but they must belong somewhere.

Sheyenne's plan was created to benefit the large schools and he was not shy about saying that...was never anything about the smaller schools ("even told me 'screw' the small schools we don't want to play VC anymore...we want more non-conference games"). That's NOT a plan for anyone that the plan is really needed for.

Northstar is a great place

When this whole things started I believed that expanding class A with the NorthStar conference was a good idea. What would be your parameters for this?

[WalkingStick]

Devils Lake's girls team has made the state 5 of the last 6 years and has one of the top class A programs in the state - what will they do in a middle class?

Oh yeah, this isn't about GBB......

I don't even have DL in my middle class; Watford City, Valley City, Wahpeton are my only Class A drops

But you aren't wrong...the whole 3 class thinking has been driven by BBB and very few look into GBB.

[Flip]

If there was a proposal that cared about GBB/BBB equally how would it differ from the current proposal?

[Thundersnow]

By nature, Girls Basketball has more dynasties than Boys Basketball. There's a smaller number of teams who are better for longer while teams who struggle tend to take longer in a rebuilding phase. Boys basketball tends to have more one-year wonders, teams can easily jump from 5 wins to 15 in a season and vice versa. I don't think there should be a "success factor" in a 3-class system right away. I'd give any 3-class system at least 4 years to evaluate what should be done after that. I think schools should have their boys and girls teams in the same class. What would be interesting to me is to see if there would be co-ops dissolving. Personally, I think co-ops have hurt participation numbers in basketball. Students who may play for a hometown team decide they don't want to drive 30 miles one way for practice. Teams have sacrificed participation numbers for a chance at (often fleeting) competitiveness. It depends on the individual programs, coaches, families and athletes what they value more. If a 3-class system incentivizes even a few teams to break up a co-op to go from the middle class to the small class, I think that's a win in the long run.

[ndlionsfan]

What would be interesting to me is to see if there would be co-ops dissolving. Personally, I think co-ops have hurt participation numbers in basketball. Students who may play for a hometown team decide they don't want to drive 30 miles one way for practice. Teams have sacrificed participation numbers for a chance at (often fleeting) competitiveness. It depends on the individual programs, coaches, families and athletes what they value more. If a 3-class system incentivizes even a few teams to break up a co-op to go from the middle class to the small class, I think that's a win in the long run.

You hit the nail on the head here. Co-ops kill participation numbers in the long run. You can see it in almost all cases. However, I don't think a new 3-class plan will cause any co-ops to dissolve. That is just wishful thinking and a feel-good item to push a 3-class proposal, especially since the enrollment number for the middle class keeps going up. Bring it back down to 150 and some of those co-op teams who don't want to be in the middle class might split. However, I do see the 3-class system reducing new co-ops in the future. More of these smaller schools will still be able to compete and not get beat down by 50 half the season. In my opinion, we should have moved to a 3-class system 10+ years ago and we would see much fewer co-ops as present day.

[Flying Wallenda]

By nature, Girls Basketball has more dynasties than Boys Basketball. There's a smaller number of teams who are better for longer while teams who struggle tend to take longer in a rebuilding phase. Boys basketball tends to have more one-year wonders, teams can easily jump from 5 wins to 15 in a season and vice versa. I don't think there should be a "success factor" in a 3-class system right away. I'd give any 3-class system at least 4 years to evaluate what should be done after that. I think schools should have their boys and girls teams in the same class. What would be interesting to me is to see if there would be co-ops dissolving. Personally, I think co-ops have hurt participation numbers in basketball. Students who may play for a hometown team decide they don't want to drive 30 miles one way for practice. Teams have sacrificed participation numbers for a chance at (often fleeting) competitiveness. It depends on the individual programs, coaches, families and athletes what they value more. If a 3-class system incentivizes even a few teams to break up a co-op to go from the middle class to the small class, I think that's a win in the long run.

The current proposal has 3 cooped teams in the middle class:
FWM
HCV
DeLacs Burlington

Do you think any of those 3 are going to dissolve?

[Thundersnow]

By nature, Girls Basketball has more dynasties than Boys Basketball. There's a smaller number of teams who are better for longer while teams who struggle tend to take longer in a rebuilding phase. Boys basketball tends to have more one-year wonders, teams can easily jump from 5 wins to 15 in a season and vice versa. I don't think there should be a "success factor" in a 3-class system right away. I'd give any 3-class system at least 4 years to evaluate what should be done after that. I think schools should have their boys and girls teams in the same class. What would be interesting to me is to see if there would be co-ops dissolving. Personally, I think co-ops have hurt participation numbers in basketball. Students who may play for a hometown team decide they don't want to drive 30 miles one way for practice. Teams have sacrificed participation numbers for a chance at (often fleeting) competitiveness. It depends on the individual programs, coaches, families and athletes what they value more. If a 3-class system incentivizes even a few teams to break up a co-op to go from the middle class to the small class, I think that's a win in the long run.

The current proposal has 3 cooped teams in the middle class:
FWM
HCV
DeLacs Burlington

Do you think any of those 3 are going to dissolve?

No, probably not. Like ndlionsfan stated, it's probably wishful thinking and too late. But look at the smallest class in the 3-class system proposal. If we stay with our current 2-class system, how long will can Max, New England, Solen, White Shield, Drake-Anamoose, Westhope-Newburg, Lakota, etc. continue to play? There is zero chance they can compete with Kindred, Central Cass, Beulah, Dickinson Trinity, Grafton, etc. long term. In just the last few years, we have new co-ops like Maple River, Tri-State, Sargent County, Griggs-Midkota, Central McLean, Kenmare-Bowbells, Grant County/Mott-Regent, Powers Lake-Burke Central and probably others. Are you telling me ALL of these co-ops were inevitable?

I believe they were made because of wishful thinking that somehow co-opping could keep them competitive. While it may work in the short-term, it just kills participation numbers, school pride, and town pride in the long run. The very best athletes (I'd estimate about 10%) will continue to play and they have the chance to succeed. Is that what high school athletics are about? To some, it obviously is. With their adamant opposition to three classes, it seems the NDHSAA wants fewer teams, schools, kids, families and towns involved in high school sports. Let's make families in smaller communities drive further and further every year, not only for games, but also for practices.

[The Schwab]

By nature, Girls Basketball has more dynasties than Boys Basketball. There's a smaller number of teams who are better for longer while teams who struggle tend to take longer in a rebuilding phase. Boys basketball tends to have more one-year wonders, teams can easily jump from 5 wins to 15 in a season and vice versa. I don't think there should be a "success factor" in a 3-class system right away. I'd give any 3-class system at least 4 years to evaluate what should be done after that. I think schools should have their boys and girls teams in the same class. What would be interesting to me is to see if there would be co-ops dissolving. Personally, I think co-ops have hurt participation numbers in basketball. Students who may play for a hometown team decide they don't want to drive 30 miles one way for practice. Teams have sacrificed participation numbers for a chance at (often fleeting) competitiveness. It depends on the individual programs, coaches, families and athletes what they value more. If a 3-class system incentivizes even a few teams to break up a co-op to go from the middle class to the small class, I think that's a win in the long run.

The current proposal has 3 cooped teams in the middle class:
FWM
HCV
DeLacs Burlington

Do you think any of those 3 are going to dissolve?

1. I don't think that FWM would want to be in the small class, I think they would want to be in the middle class as they already have one of the toughest schedules in the state year in and year out.

2. I don't see the HCV co-op dissolving as the CV kids have been some of the star athletes for that co-op. I could see their girls sports as not wanting to be part of the middle class.

3. DLB is a consolidation not a co-op.


I know that there are a lot of teams where the boys program is far more dominant than the girls. I think by putting an option in where you don't have to play a certain schedule and seed everything off of a power point/rpi formula that is public knowledge, schools would be able to play whoever they want. I also think that there could be an opt down policy where certain criteria would have to be met for a team (bbb/gbb/vb one or more, individual sports) to move down by taking into account participation numbers, past success etc... I think this could really be achieved if you had a system where really the only thing that needs to change is the post season tournament schedule. It is possible with a little creativity and a growth mindset.

[Sportsrube]

What would be interesting to me is to see if there would be co-ops dissolving. Personally, I think co-ops have hurt participation numbers in basketball. Students who may play for a hometown team decide they don't want to drive 30 miles one way for practice. Teams have sacrificed participation numbers for a chance at (often fleeting) competitiveness. It depends on the individual programs, coaches, families and athletes what they value more. If a 3-class system incentivizes even a few teams to break up a co-op to go from the middle class to the small class, I think that's a win in the long run.

You hit the nail on the head here. Co-ops kill participation numbers in the long run. You can see it in almost all cases. However, I don't think a new 3-class plan will cause any co-ops to dissolve. That is just wishful thinking and a feel-good item to push a 3-class proposal, especially since the enrollment number for the middle class keeps going up. Bring it back down to 150 and some of those co-op teams who don't want to be in the middle class might split. However, I do see the 3-class system reducing new co-ops in the future. More of these smaller schools will still be able to compete and not get beat down by 50 half the season. In my opinion, we should have moved to a 3-class system 10+ years ago and we would see much fewer co-ops as present day.

I agree. The first few years of our Co-Op we had large numbers in VB, GBB and BB. SInce then the numbers have declined. Some kids got tired of getting home at 7 PM if they had to travel that day for practice, some kids did not want to have to compete for playing time others quit because their parents did not support the Co-Op

[Flying Wallenda]

2. Believe 38 is too high for middle class. When comparing SD and ND in their proposal, it's obvious that SD has always had more middle class schools and was easier for them to start a 3-class plan. Believe 28 - 32 is the correct number and will allow for some upward movement if necessary in the future.

EXACTLY! I could not agree more. The easiest way to make the plan fail is to make the middle class huge, which is exactly what they did. Cut out 6-10 teams from A and you have 6-10 more "yes" votes. I felt like some ADs sabotaged the plan by making it a plan they knew wouldn't get support.

Isn't this just sabotaging it to get it to pass?

[Mandan]

In my opinion, we should have moved to a 3-class system 10+ years ago and we would see much fewer co-ops as present day.

We should have moved to 3 classes back in 1990, when it failed by only 5(I think) votes. That failure to approve 3 classes is what lead to the North Star dissolving and most of those schools moving to class B with Dickinson Trinity. If that vote succeeds, those bigger schools would never have been mixed in with the small schools to begin with.

[Flip]

2. Believe 38 is too high for middle class. When comparing SD and ND in their proposal, it's obvious that SD has always had more middle class schools and was easier for them to start a 3-class plan. Believe 28 - 32 is the correct number and will allow for some upward movement if necessary in the future.

EXACTLY! I could not agree more. The easiest way to make the plan fail is to make the middle class huge, which is exactly what they did. Cut out 6-10 teams from A and you have 6-10 more "yes" votes. I felt like some ADs sabotaged the plan by making it a plan they knew wouldn't get support.

Isn't this just sabotaging it to get it to pass?

Some may see it like that. I've always thought the middle class should be around 32 teams. I've also been ok with making the classes based strictly on enrollment as long as you allow schools to opt-up. If Ryan wants to be the most hated team in the state let them play class B.

[ndlionsfan]

In my opinion, we should have moved to a 3-class system 10+ years ago and we would see much fewer co-ops as present day.

We should have moved to 3 classes back in 1990, when it failed by only 5(I think) votes. That failure to approve 3 classes is what lead to the North Star dissolving and most of those schools moving to class B with Dickinson Trinity. If that vote succeeds, those bigger schools would never have been mixed in with the small schools to begin with.

It definitely would be interesting to see what the state of basketball would look like now if this did happen back in 1990. When I was coaching back in the mid 2000s, District 7 had 10 teams. All of Region 4 only has 12 teams now.

[packers21]

In my opinion, we should have moved to a 3-class system 10+ years ago and we would see much fewer co-ops as present day.

We should have moved to 3 classes back in 1990, when it failed by only 5(I think) votes. That failure to approve 3 classes is what lead to the North Star dissolving and most of those schools moving to class B with Dickinson Trinity. If that vote succeeds, those bigger schools would never have been mixed in with the small schools to begin with.

It definitely would be interesting to see what the state of basketball would look like now if this did happen back in 1990. When I was coaching back in the mid 2000s, District 7 had 10 teams. All of Region 4 only has 12 teams now.

I do not think the state of basketball would be different than it is right now.

[The Schwab]

In my opinion, we should have moved to a 3-class system 10+ years ago and we would see much fewer co-ops as present day.

We should have moved to 3 classes back in 1990, when it failed by only 5(I think) votes. That failure to approve 3 classes is what lead to the North Star dissolving and most of those schools moving to class B with Dickinson Trinity. If that vote succeeds, those bigger schools would never have been mixed in with the small schools to begin with.

It definitely would be interesting to see what the state of basketball would look like now if this did happen back in 1990. When I was coaching back in the mid 2000s, District 7 had 10 teams. All of Region 4 only has 12 teams now.

I do not think the state of basketball would be different than it is right now.

I disagree. In my opinion, if 3 class system would have happened in 1990 I feel that these schools could still be on their own today

Hettinger/Scranton
Four Winds/Minnewauken
Maple Valley/Hope Page
Hatton Northwood
Elgin New Leipzig/ Mott-Regent
Midway Minto
Ashley-Wishek
Drayton-Valley/Edinburg
Wyndmere/Lidgerwood
Rolla/Rolette
Milnor/North Sargent/Sgt Central
Belfield/South Heart
Hillsboro/Central Valley
Harvey/Wells County
Grenora could still be playing in ND

This is my opinion, but if we were to have 3 classes these schools have the enrollment numbers to compete against the small class schools. Obviously, if you did this today some of these schools would struggle as their participation numbers have no doubt dwindled with the co-op they are currently in.

[Thundersnow]

The Schwab, I agree with you 100%. Since we don't have a time machine to break up any/many of these co-ops, the next best thing is to get a 3-class system passed as soon as possible.