3 class proposal

[bk1990]

[quote][/quote]by maddog1971 » Mon Feb 20, 2023 2:56 pm

Ryan will never opt up. They want to win and they always find a way to win. " Oh they will be down next year" Maybe one year but they will be back and dominate Class B. They have a really good chance of being state Champs this year... Just like they had a Chance last year and so on. That was the reason I argued for and support the 3 Class System is to get Minot Ryan, Dickinson Trinity, Fargo Oak Grove and Bismarck Shiloh out of class B. But Ryan found a way to sneak in.


I think what people don't want to recognize when the parochial schools are involved is the access to resources as pointed out while ago in the Grand Forks Herald article. Yes, living in a larger city, the kids are able to go a gym and work out, get involved in a pick up game at the YMCA or go to training programs that larger towns have.
I think the argument that just because a school is located in a larger city they automatically have an advantage and it is "unfair" to smaller schools. The kids still have to put in the work.
I have been around the travel ball and AAU circuit and can tell you it makes a difference. You don't have to live in a bigger city to play outside the school ball season, this is where it makes a difference. These kids that play in the summer are playing anywhere from 25-32 games in the summer against high level competition, you don't thing this translates to the school ball season? Some of these 15U or 16U teams would make a serious run at a region titles for North Dakota class B. When I hear about the advantage privates have, look what they do in the offseason. Each and every one of the privates have kids who do AAU in the summer, they are putting in the time, and it is not because it is more convenient, the nearest AAU tourney is probably St. Cloud, Minneapolis or Sioux Falls. The kid from Hettinger can go there just as easily as the kid from MInot.
Velva always has great football teams, wrestlers and baseball players. They haven't been to state basketball since the 60's I'm told. Why? Because as one of their coaches said, they don't touch a basketball from March until November. That is their culture, they concentrate on other sports, and they are successful at them.
I do feel three class basketball is needed, I don't think it will solve the problems everyone thinks they will. The teams that never make it to state are still not going to make it unless something changes in their culture and the kids start putting the time in, whether it is in the driveway or they get in the vehicle and get involved in off season activities. I am not going to throw the predictions out, but based on how the Class B is set up next year, I have a pretty good idea of who will be at State. Part of the prediction is if they are 'Traditional Powers" and the other part is who the kids are that will be doing something to make themselves better before the season starts next year. The thing so many people fail to remember is you don't get better during the season, you get better during the offseason.
I'm sure I will get hammered for some of my thoughts, such as "not everybody can afford AAU, etc.", I get it, but that is life, if you want it enough, you will find a way.
Enough of my rant, but I've held my tongue for quite awhile with my thoughts, let me know how wrong you think I am

[The Schwab]

bk. I don't disagree with your points about private schools putting in the time. They definitely put in the time and have great coaches and programs. However, I strongly disagree with your sentiment that if you want it enough, you will find a way. I disagree with this comment when it comes to high school aged students. These students do not get to choose who their parents are, what kind of income their family has, where they live etc... This is one of the reasons why private schools have an advantage in my opinion. A majority of their students come from families who are very invested in their lives and giving them the best possible opportunities. This is not always the case for students in public schools. I truly believe that most people in this world do the absolute best with what they have, but the resources aren't always comparable.

[bk1990]

I hope this isn't made out to be a financial issue, that was never my intent. When I referenced private schools and opportunities,, I was referring to the fact that since they are typically in larger cities in the state, the opportunities were more geared towards resources such as YMCA's, city leagues, readily available competition to play against, where as smaller towns typically don't have those types of resources or facilities. From what I saw on the travel and AAU circuit, it typically was not a financial issue, the clubs would do there best to help anyone who wanted to play and would help people find a way to make it work.

[olufsen2022]

I hope this isn't made out to be a financial issue, that was never my intent. When I referenced private schools and opportunities,, I was referring to the fact that since they are typically in larger cities in the state, the opportunities were more geared towards resources such as YMCA's, city leagues, readily available competition to play against, where as smaller towns typically don't have those types of resources or facilities. From what I saw on the travel and AAU circuit, it typically was not a financial issue, the clubs would do there best to help anyone who wanted to play and would help people find a way to make it work.

I agree with a lot of what you said in your previous post. The part I don't always agree with is how much of a benefit you think AAU and city leagues are. I won't say they are a waste of time at all, and there can be value in both for sure. But getting in the gym and getting shots up....not just wandering around being lazy shooting....doing actual shooting drills and working at it is a huge deal. Also finding a weight room is very important. Both of those things can be accomplished in whatever town you live in, big or small, and are much more important then playing AAU or pick up games at the YMCA. Both can also be accomplished no matter what a families financial situations are.

[maddog1971]

I have been saying it for years. It comes down to the fact if the family wants it. It can not be just the kid. It takes Parents, Grandparents, Aunts and Uncles to get these kids involved and to instill what it takes to succeed. The weight Room at 5:30 all year... after... taking 500 shots in the gym... then work on jumping drills and footwork... that is every day...And yes the kid needs to be a special person but the mom that gets up and makes them breakfast... or drives them to the school 30 miles each direction... the Adults willing to give up their time coaching not only their own kid but other peoples kids. Give up golfing and fishing. cable TV, going out on the town every week..... Going out an raising money for good equipment and facilities.... It takes way more than the population that live in your town... it takes a whole group of people to come together.... (and also if you kid grows to 6'5 and has a 38 inch vertical also helps... or having 4 or 5 kids that kids do the same thing)

[Nala1]

Don't forget that Kindred gets Riley Sunram back as well. He will make a big difference.

[maddog1971]

Don't forget that Kindred gets Riley Sunram back as well. He will make a big difference.

Well according to some people on this site... that did not or will not make a difference in Kindreds chances. Because nobody wants a 6'5 280lb athlete that has a great looking shot....

[RiverMiner99]

Don't forget that Kindred gets Riley Sunram back as well. He will make a big difference.

Well according to some people on this site... that did not or will not make a difference in Kindreds chances. Because nobody wants a 6'5 280lb athlete that has a great looking shot....

After missing a season and having the college football opportunities he has, will he even play basketball next season?

[RiverMiner99]

With this new 3 class proposal and the challenge games in the new class A who do you think will be the 4 teams to represent region 3 and 4 in the new class A division? The top 4 teams in the west might all be in Region 4, but there will be at least 1 from Region 3. I'll go with Turtle Mountain, Beulah, Hazen, and Dickinson.

[Thundersnow]

Still too early to be confident, but my initial prediction would be Turtle Mountain, Beulah, Shiloh Christian and Stanley. And then from the east, I would go with Devils Lake, Four Winds-Minnewauken, Wahpeton and Central Cass.

[maddog1971]

Don't forget that Kindred gets Riley Sunram back as well. He will make a big difference.

Well according to some people on this site... that did not or will not make a difference in Kindreds chances. Because nobody wants a 6'5 280lb athlete that has a great looking shot....

After missing a season and having the college football opportunities he has, will he even play basketball next season?

It depends on the College he selects. Some places want him to play multiple sports and some want to get him a training program right after football. If he does play I would put Kindred in the State tournament out of the East.

[bk1990]

I hope this isn't made out to be a financial issue, that was never my intent. When I referenced private schools and opportunities,, I was referring to the fact that since they are typically in larger cities in the state, the opportunities were more geared towards resources such as YMCA's, city leagues, readily available competition to play against, where as smaller towns typically don't have those types of resources or facilities. From what I saw on the travel and AAU circuit, it typically was not a financial issue, the clubs would do there best to help anyone who wanted to play and would help people find a way to make it work.

I agree with a lot of what you said in your previous post. The part I don't always agree with is how much of a benefit you think AAU and city leagues are. I won't say they are a waste of time at all, and there can be value in both for sure. But getting in the gym and getting shots up....not just wandering around being lazy shooting....doing actual shooting drills and working at it is a huge deal. Also finding a weight room is very important. Both of those things can be accomplished in whatever town you live in, big or small, and are much more important then playing AAU or pick up games at the YMCA. Both can also be accomplished no matter what a families financial situations are.

Not to belabor the point, I don't think AAU and leagues are the end all to a better player also, however you can't underestimate their value. If you have a kid who plays in 8th and 9th grade, and plays an AAU season after each year, in my view they just played two additional seasons, they can usually get 25-30 games in over the summer against quality level competition. I feel this translates to two additional season, basically they played their junior and senior years. So that true 10th grader I feel should be playing at senior level experience as it translates to court time. I agree, AAU and pick up games can develop bad habits, but their still isn't any substitution for experience. I'm sure the high school coaches don't like having to get rid of any bad habits the player developed, but I'm pretty sure they will take the trade off of having a kid who was playing in the offseason.
Don't take it the wrong way, I have a hard time watching AAU games sometimes due to selfish play and lack of teamwork sometimes, but if a kid is able to get on a team with a coach who believes it is to develop players, not just put a team together, it can be very benificial.

[olufsen2022]

I hope this isn't made out to be a financial issue, that was never my intent. When I referenced private schools and opportunities,, I was referring to the fact that since they are typically in larger cities in the state, the opportunities were more geared towards resources such as YMCA's, city leagues, readily available competition to play against, where as smaller towns typically don't have those types of resources or facilities. From what I saw on the travel and AAU circuit, it typically was not a financial issue, the clubs would do there best to help anyone who wanted to play and would help people find a way to make it work.

I agree with a lot of what you said in your previous post. The part I don't always agree with is how much of a benefit you think AAU and city leagues are. I won't say they are a waste of time at all, and there can be value in both for sure. But getting in the gym and getting shots up....not just wandering around being lazy shooting....doing actual shooting drills and working at it is a huge deal. Also finding a weight room is very important. Both of those things can be accomplished in whatever town you live in, big or small, and are much more important then playing AAU or pick up games at the YMCA. Both can also be accomplished no matter what a families financial situations are.

Not to belabor the point, I don't think AAU and leagues are the end all to a better player also, however you can't underestimate their value. If you have a kid who plays in 8th and 9th grade, and plays an AAU season after each year, in my view they just played two additional seasons, they can usually get 25-30 games in over the summer against quality level competition. I feel this translates to two additional season, basically they played their junior and senior years. So that true 10th grader I feel should be playing at senior level experience as it translates to court time. I agree, AAU and pick up games can develop bad habits, but their still isn't any substitution for experience. I'm sure the high school coaches don't like having to get rid of any bad habits the player developed, but I'm pretty sure they will take the trade off of having a kid who was playing in the offseason.
Don't take it the wrong way, I have a hard time watching AAU games sometimes due to selfish play and lack of teamwork sometimes, but if a kid is able to get on a team with a coach who believes it is to develop players, not just put a team together, it can be very benificial.

I definitely agree it can be a benefit. I especially agree with the point you ended with....if you have a good AAU coach it can be a bigger benefit then having a random parent or college student who is just throwing together a team and doesn't know much about coaching things the right way. There are tons and tons of great coaches in AAU. There are also tons and tons of bad ones. My point wasn't to put down AAU or pickup games. There is definitely a benefit to playing. And you are right, having a ball in your hands outside of basketball season, AAU or shooting on your own, is very important to being a good player.
I do believe the kids who show the most growth aren't just playing AAU though. They are the kids that are spending hours and hours in the gym and weight room....which any kid can do whether they live in Cando, Minot, Ellendale, or another other big or small town. These are the kids that really benefit from AAU also because they are committed to the game of basketball and not just weekend warriors playing with a group of kids they may never even practice with. My intention isn't to blast AAU or summer leagues at all. It's just my belief there are other ways to become a great player if AAU or summer leagues aren't an option for a kid.

[maddog1971]

I can not disagree more on this subject of AAU. Kids can not get in the weight room and just throwing up 500 shots a day. Going on youtube and finding drills to help their skill set will not make them better. They need live within 50 miles of Fargo is the only way kids get better. They have to get training in Fargo to be any good. That is why we need this 3rd Class....

[WalkingStick]

I can not disagree more on this subject of AAU. Kids can not get in the weight room and just throwing up 500 shots a day. Going on youtube and finding drills to help their skill set will not make them better. They need live within 50 miles of Fargo is the only way kids get better. They have to get training in Fargo to be any good. That is why we need this 3rd Class....

Dude the school you support has 250+ kids...that's why the 3rd class is implemented and as you have always stated to get rid of the Private schools.

[bk1990]

I can not disagree more on this subject of AAU. Kids can not get in the weight room and just throwing up 500 shots a day. Going on youtube and finding drills to help their skill set will not make them better. They need live within 50 miles of Fargo is the only way kids get better. They have to get training in Fargo to be any good. That is why we need this 3rd Class....

I sincerely hope you are saying this with sarcasm. If that is how you truly feel, how do you explain the two brothers from Bowman County who made All State, the kid from Flasher, first team All State, I could go on with the good players that are not "50 miles from Fargo". The disdain and intense dislike you have for anyone near a larger town, i.e. Bedroom communities and privates astound me.

[WalkingStick]

I can not disagree more on this subject of AAU. Kids can not get in the weight room and just throwing up 500 shots a day. Going on youtube and finding drills to help their skill set will not make them better. They need live within 50 miles of Fargo is the only way kids get better. They have to get training in Fargo to be any good. That is why we need this 3rd Class....

I sincerely hope you are saying this with sarcasm. If that is how you truly feel, how do you explain the two brothers from Bowman County who made All State, the kid from Flasher, first team All State, I could go on with the good players that are not "50 miles from Fargo". The disdain and intense dislike you have for anyone near a larger town, i.e. Bedroom communities and privates astound me.

His school support is for a team that falls within 30 miles of Fargo and is a LARGE Class B School

[Region 1 Fan]

Strong programs consist of a coach that is invested in the program at all levels, organizes team camps over the summer for his kids to attend, encourages kids to attend strength training sessions that is organized at the school level and in communities where they may not be near a larger city...sets up weekly scrimmages with other nearby small towns. All of this can be done without living near a larger city.
AAU is a mixed bag for me - Good to have kids get in 30 or so extra games per year to work on skills. You see some extremely talented kids but the downside to some AAU programs is that it is more one one one with a lot of transition play. Not a lot of sets being ran. There are some really good programs that get together weekly or twice a week, during weeks of tourneys and you usually see more organized brand of basketball. Players love it as they get to continue playing during the off season. My personal opinion, if the player is skilled enough to play at the next level, it could be beneficial as they do get in front of some college scouts and yes, that is probably one reason why you may see some more one on one vs a 5 man set offense. AAU teams have kids from all State on one team. This years top ECI team has several from out west playing on it. Kids from ND play on the Minneapolis AAU teams. Doesn't matter where you live, you can still develop your team/program. There are advantages living near a bigger city as you have more resource but you can certainly hone your skills if the interest is there. Don't need to live near Fargo/Bismarck/Minot/Grand Forks to have a strong program. I'm all for the 3 class system but don't feel this will increase participation for say. You are going to have perennial dominance in each of the 3 classes instead of 2 now and I'm fine with that. It is always fun to watch a Cinderella take down a favorite, unless you are a fan of that favorite of course. Can make for compelling story lines. With that said, it isn't fun to watch a team win by 40 plus or more either. You still will see that happen, just not as often and that's one of the big reason I support the 3 classes.

[maddog1971]

I can not disagree more on this subject of AAU. Kids can not get in the weight room and just throwing up 500 shots a day. Going on youtube and finding drills to help their skill set will not make them better. They need live within 50 miles of Fargo is the only way kids get better. They have to get training in Fargo to be any good. That is why we need this 3rd Class....

YES I am just joking around... Programs can develop anywhere. I have said it a 100 times on here.. I have beat that horse to death. I give you Linton .... they are always putting together a Team that can compete and win. They have a community of parents and coaches that put time in their program.

[Thundersnow]

I had heard that there was going to be a meeting in April to make some of the decisions about finalizing the details of the new 3-class system. Shot clock, halves vs. quarters, realignment of which teams are in which region, etc. Does anyone know if this meeting has taken place and if so, what decisions were made?

[WalkingStick]

I had heard that there was going to be a meeting in April to make some of the decisions about finalizing the details of the new 3-class system. Shot clock, halves vs. quarters, realignment of which teams are in which region, etc. Does anyone know if this meeting has taken place and if so, what decisions were made?

It was supposed to be 2 weeks ago but we had a storm. I believe the meeting is today.

[RiverMiner99]

I had heard that there was going to be a meeting in April to make some of the decisions about finalizing the details of the new 3-class system. Shot clock, halves vs. quarters, realignment of which teams are in which region, etc. Does anyone know if this meeting has taken place and if so, what decisions were made?

It was supposed to be 2 weeks ago but we had a storm. I believe the meeting is today.

1st order of business should be to make sure the middle class state tournament is in the SHAC and NOT Fargodome!

Play halves with the 30 second shot clock. More minutes means there will be a better chance of more kids playing and that was one of the reasons for creating a 3rd class.

Last thing would be to not have the cross over play in games be against the same region every year. Find another way. Rotate or based on ranking. Anything other than always the same.

[packers21]

I had heard that there was going to be a meeting in April to make some of the decisions about finalizing the details of the new 3-class system. Shot clock, halves vs. quarters, realignment of which teams are in which region, etc. Does anyone know if this meeting has taken place and if so, what decisions were made?

It was supposed to be 2 weeks ago but we had a storm. I believe the meeting is today.

1st order of business should be to make sure the middle class state tournament is in the SHAC and NOT Fargodome!

Play halves with the 30 second shot clock. More minutes means there will be a better chance of more kids playing and that was one of the reasons for creating a 3rd class.

Last thing would be to not have the cross over play in games be against the same region every year. Find another way. Rotate or based on ranking. Anything other than always the same.

The NDHSAA Board of Directors approved an Executive
Board recommendation for Division A boys and girls
basketball to mirror Division B boys and girls regulations
in 2023-24. This includes eight-minute quarters, a 35
second shot clock, and a 30-point mercy rule in the 4th
quarter.

[RiverMiner99]

I had heard that there was going to be a meeting in April to make some of the decisions about finalizing the details of the new 3-class system. Shot clock, halves vs. quarters, realignment of which teams are in which region, etc. Does anyone know if this meeting has taken place and if so, what decisions were made?

It was supposed to be 2 weeks ago but we had a storm. I believe the meeting is today.

1st order of business should be to make sure the middle class state tournament is in the SHAC and NOT Fargodome!

Play halves with the 30 second shot clock. More minutes means there will be a better chance of more kids playing and that was one of the reasons for creating a 3rd class.

Last thing would be to not have the cross over play in games be against the same region every year. Find another way. Rotate or based on ranking. Anything other than always the same.

The NDHSAA Board of Directors approved an Executive
Board recommendation for Division A boys and girls
basketball to mirror Division B boys and girls regulations
in 2023-24. This includes eight-minute quarters, a 35
second shot clock, and a 30-point mercy rule in the 4th
quarter.

Sorry to hear they went that direction. One of the listed reasons for a 3 class system was to increase participation. More minutes in a game would create more participation. Makes you think the reasons stated for a 3 class system were maybe less than honest!

[WalkingStick]

I had heard that there was going to be a meeting in April to make some of the decisions about finalizing the details of the new 3-class system. Shot clock, halves vs. quarters, realignment of which teams are in which region, etc. Does anyone know if this meeting has taken place and if so, what decisions were made?

It was supposed to be 2 weeks ago but we had a storm. I believe the meeting is today.

1st order of business should be to make sure the middle class state tournament is in the SHAC and NOT Fargodome!

Play halves with the 30 second shot clock. More minutes means there will be a better chance of more kids playing and that was one of the reasons for creating a 3rd class.

Last thing would be to not have the cross over play in games be against the same region every year. Find another way. Rotate or based on ranking. Anything other than always the same.

The NDHSAA Board of Directors approved an Executive
Board recommendation for Division A boys and girls
basketball to mirror Division B boys and girls regulations
in 2023-24. This includes eight-minute quarters, a 35
second shot clock, and a 30-point mercy rule in the 4th
quarter.

Not shocked they went with quarters and same shot clock...more likely to see A play B schools then A playing AA schools (that is what I'm seeing in schedules too).