3 Class System for Basketball

[WalkingStick]

Make it all privates and get rid of the transfer rule. No sitting out if you transfer schools.

There is a private school in Niche. They have 14 students K-12. If they create a coop with North Border should they be in the middle class?

According to Maddog1971 yes.

Good thing is maddog's opinion won't matter as not all private schools will be in the middle class...that's a given. The transfer rule will also go nowhere either.

WTC/Alexander for GBB would NOT make it as a middle class school. They don't even make it to regions in GBB. Does WTC students have the same opportunities as Shiloh students?

[Flip]

Final four in girls basketball are all "middle class" teams IMO and have won 5 of the last 6 championships.

[ndlionsfan]

Final four in girls basketball are all "middle class" teams IMO and have won 5 of the last 6 championships.

After watching the games yesterday, I don't think too many people would argue that FWM, CC, NC, and Thompson weren't in the top 8 teams in the state with the 4 winners last night. All middle class teams and that would be a heck of a tournament to watch. (Yes, I know all 8 would not be in an actual state tournament since they are all from the east...) Mix in a Watford and DL who have had some recent success in Class A and you have a ton of competitive games.

Take Kenmare, MLS, Linton and add in Garrison, Richland, Benson County, etc. some of these other schools that had good teams but couldn't ever beat the "big" guys and you have another great tournament to watch. Plus the state gets a chance to see more of the top players on all these teams such as Megan Roob, Quinn Neppl, Sweet Cedar Perkins that they normally probably don't get to see. Probably not going to be the same level as basketball as the middle class, but you would have highly competitive games.

This isn't about a participation trophy for everyone....its about competitive balance in our state.

[packers21]

Final four in girls basketball are all "middle class" teams IMO and have won 5 of the last 6 championships.

After watching the games yesterday, I don't think too many people would argue that FWM, CC, NC, and Thompson weren't in the top 8 teams in the state with the 4 winners last night. All middle class teams and that would be a heck of a tournament to watch. (Yes, I know all 8 would not be in an actual state tournament since they are all from the east...) Mix in a Watford and DL who have had some recent success in Class A and you have a ton of competitive games.

Take Kenmare, MLS, Linton and add in Garrison, Richland, Benson County, etc. some of these other schools that had good teams but couldn't ever beat the "big" guys and you have another great tournament to watch. Plus the state gets a chance to see more of the top players on all these teams such as Megan Roob, Quinn Neppl, Sweet Cedar Perkins that they normally probably don't get to see. Probably not going to be the same level as basketball as the middle class, but you would have highly competitive games.

This isn't about a participation trophy for everyone....its about competitive balance in our state.

Linton literally just won the state vb championship

[BasketballMind]

Final four in girls basketball are all "middle class" teams IMO and have won 5 of the last 6 championships.

After watching the games yesterday, I don't think too many people would argue that FWM, CC, NC, and Thompson weren't in the top 8 teams in the state with the 4 winners last night. All middle class teams and that would be a heck of a tournament to watch. (Yes, I know all 8 would not be in an actual state tournament since they are all from the east...) Mix in a Watford and DL who have had some recent success in Class A and you have a ton of competitive games.

Take Kenmare, MLS, Linton and add in Garrison, Richland, Benson County, etc. some of these other schools that had good teams but couldn't ever beat the "big" guys and you have another great tournament to watch. Plus the state gets a chance to see more of the top players on all these teams such as Megan Roob, Quinn Neppl, Sweet Cedar Perkins that they normally probably don't get to see. Probably not going to be the same level as basketball as the middle class, but you would have highly competitive games.

This isn't about a participation trophy for everyone....its about competitive balance in our state.

This is about boys basketball. If anyone believes it's about girls basketball and volleyball I have a bridge to sell you. I'd like anyone to discuss the travel budget for the middle division schools if it was to happen. Never gets brought up. West Fargo Sheyenne isn't thinking about Garrison and Kenmare despite how they're trying to spin it.

[ndlionsfan]

Final four in girls basketball are all "middle class" teams IMO and have won 5 of the last 6 championships.

After watching the games yesterday, I don't think too many people would argue that FWM, CC, NC, and Thompson weren't in the top 8 teams in the state with the 4 winners last night. All middle class teams and that would be a heck of a tournament to watch. (Yes, I know all 8 would not be in an actual state tournament since they are all from the east...) Mix in a Watford and DL who have had some recent success in Class A and you have a ton of competitive games.

Take Kenmare, MLS, Linton and add in Garrison, Richland, Benson County, etc. some of these other schools that had good teams but couldn't ever beat the "big" guys and you have another great tournament to watch. Plus the state gets a chance to see more of the top players on all these teams such as Megan Roob, Quinn Neppl, Sweet Cedar Perkins that they normally probably don't get to see. Probably not going to be the same level as basketball as the middle class, but you would have highly competitive games.

This isn't about a participation trophy for everyone....its about competitive balance in our state.

This is about boys basketball. If anyone believes it's about girls basketball and volleyball I have a bridge to sell you. I'd like anyone to discuss the travel budget for the middle division schools if it was to happen. Never gets brought up. West Fargo Sheyenne isn't thinking about Garrison and Kenmare despite how they're trying to spin it.

Wait until after the first round of the boys tournament. I'm sure we'll be able to copy this same post and just change a few teams, but it will be the same point.

Travel budget is nonsense to me. Teams are traveling all over the place and its not just the really good programs. You do not have to only play the teams in your class. People need to stop being so narrow minded. Continue to play the same rivals and teams close to you, just play all the teams in your region (which will be 7-8 required games out of a 19-21 game schedule).

No, the class A schools don't care about the small Bs. But if you have the class A teams behind this and you have the small Bs behind it, it has a good chance at passing.

[The Schwab]

Sheyenne's plan is not the answer. It doesn't address the major issues that class B basketball has. My plan addresses travel concerns by not putting requirements on who you play during the regular season. Most of those schools in the middle class put on the miles traveling all over the state the way it is in our current system.

[ndlionsfan]

Sheyenne's plan is not the answer. It doesn't address the major issues that class B basketball has. My plan addresses travel concerns by not putting requirements on who you play during the regular season. Most of those schools in the middle class put on the miles traveling all over the state the way it is in our current system.

I'm not 100% on how the process all works, but I'm assuming a 3-class system is put up for vote at district chairs in two weeks. Are they voting on a specific, detailed plan such as WF Sheyenne's or are they voting on just the concept of a 3-class system and the plan gets ironed out by NDHSAA if it is approved?

[Flying Wallenda]

Sheyenne's plan is not the answer. It doesn't address the major issues that class B basketball has. My plan addresses travel concerns by not putting requirements on who you play during the regular season. Most of those schools in the middle class put on the miles traveling all over the state the way it is in our current system.

What middle class teams travel all over? I know Enderlin has this year, but they are lower class. FW does yearly. Did Beulah? DT?

[The Schwab]

Sheyenne's plan is not the answer. It doesn't address the major issues that class B basketball has. My plan addresses travel concerns by not putting requirements on who you play during the regular season. Most of those schools in the middle class put on the miles traveling all over the state the way it is in our current system.

I'm not 100% on how the process all works, but I'm assuming a 3-class system is put up for vote at district chairs in two weeks. Are they voting on a specific, detailed plan such as WF Sheyenne's or are they voting on just the concept of a 3-class system and the plan gets ironed out by NDHSAA if it is approved?

If I understand it correctly the NDHSAA wants a 60 percent approval before they will even look at something. So I believe Sheyenne will have to send their plan out to the AD's and get approval before submitting an option.

[Flip]

Sheyenne's plan is not the answer. It doesn't address the major issues that class B basketball has. My plan addresses travel concerns by not putting requirements on who you play during the regular season. Most of those schools in the middle class put on the miles traveling all over the state the way it is in our current system.

What middle class teams travel all over? I know Enderlin has this year, but they are lower class. FW does yearly. Did Beulah? DT?

Shiloh, Thompson, Grafton.

[Flip]

I hate that 60% approval thing. What percent approval did they need to move the A/B cutoff from 325 to 400? or to radically change the football plan?

[The Schwab]

Sheyenne's plan is not the answer. It doesn't address the major issues that class B basketball has. My plan addresses travel concerns by not putting requirements on who you play during the regular season. Most of those schools in the middle class put on the miles traveling all over the state the way it is in our current system.

What middle class teams travel all over? I know Enderlin has this year, but they are lower class. FW does yearly. Did Beulah? DT?

I guess it all depends on what you consider all over. Teams in my proposed middle class have traditionally traveled or scheduled teams from other regions to meet at a neutral site (ex. Jamestown), your small town class B schools don't get a lot of options to do that as they aren't usually invited to those type of shootouts. Teams like HCV, Thompson, Kindred and CC can find a lot of great competition when traveling within 100 miles. Teams out west don't have that luxury as the regions are more spread out and Montana teams rarely schedule ND teams. Dickinson Trinity and Bismarck Shiloh routinely host shoot-outs and different events to bring better competition to their schools. IMO if schools like HCV, Kindred, CC and Thompson had fewer options for higher competition in their areas they would travel to find it. It's how you build programs. Schools in my proposed middle class would have the resources to do that travel. Also, one of my main priorities with my plan is to have the RPI/Power point system that doesn't require all of that travel. There would be no requirements for regular season games. I also really don't want to hear the argument about travel for tournaments as football does whole-state seeding during the playoffs before the state title games.

[WalkingStick]

Sheyenne's plan is not the answer. It doesn't address the major issues that class B basketball has. My plan addresses travel concerns by not putting requirements on who you play during the regular season. Most of those schools in the middle class put on the miles traveling all over the state the way it is in our current system.

What middle class teams travel all over? I know Enderlin has this year, but they are lower class. FW does yearly. Did Beulah? DT?

Shiloh, Thompson, Grafton.

OG, CC travels a bit, HCV will too

[The Schwab]

I hate that 60% approval thing. What percent approval did they need to move the A/B cutoff from 325 to 400? or to radically change the football plan?

Ah yes, I almost forgot about the time when we didn't have class B we had division B.

[HONKER]

It seems everyone has forgotten that we had a 3 class system that worked once. No reason it won"t work again

[packers21]

It won't work. One of the selling points of the 3-class plan being floated around is the opting up of private schools. It's not happening. Sure, it's a good way to sell the idea to schools so they'll vote on it.

Exactly right

[ndlionsfan]

This is my proposal for a 3 class system for basketball. I am using the same multiplier used for the football:
If your school has a Free and Reduced percentage less than 10 your number is multiplied by 1.4
If your school has a Free and Reduced percentage between 10-19 your number is multiplied by 1.25
If your school has a Free and Reduced percentage between 20-39 your number is multiplied by 1
If your school has a Free and Reduced percentage between 40-49 your number is multiplied by .75
If your school has a Free and Reduced percentage greater than 49 your number is multiplied by .6


I realize that not every school has an equal number of boys and girls, but for this case I'm assuming they do. I am also going to use some common sense when it comes to teams not co-oped the same for football as basketball.

State tournaments can still be held over 3 weekends with Class A and B girls, Class AA boys and girls and Class A and B boys being played over the same weekends.

This is a solid plan. The teams you show opting up would be a very important piece to the puzzle. With that said, this would be a money generating cash cow. Imagine the region and state tourneys. Most important, participation numbers would increase immediately and with the right scheduling, a semblance of parity could be brought back into regular season games. Job well done.

Schwab, how would your divisions change if it were simplified slightly for the multiplier? If FR is 50% and above, multiply enrollment by .75 and if FR is 15 or 20% and below, multiply by 1.25. I just think something that easier for everyone to understand and has minimal levels might be the easiest to back for a number of schools. Also, are you going with an enrollment number for cutoffs or just a number of teams for each of the top 2 divisions?

[The Schwab]

I would have to go back through and look at it some more to adjust enrollments. I don't have exact enrollments in front of me and I used the football numbers, all of my figuring what done hypothetically (same number of boys and girls which know isn't the case. Also my numbers I have access to are only schools in the football plan.

There would be 8 schools that would have the .75 multipler if 50 and above, 14 schools if the number is 40 and above. 34 schools if the number is 30 and above.

If the percentage for the 1.25 multiplier was 10 or under- 5 schools, 15 or under- 12 schools, 20 or under- 23 schools.

I think if your goal is to do one multiplier for above and one for below you would want to choose 40 or above (.75) and 15 or under (1.25)

[Baller]

Sheyenne's plan is not the answer. It doesn't address the major issues that class B basketball has. My plan addresses travel concerns by not putting requirements on who you play during the regular season. Most of those schools in the middle class put on the miles traveling all over the state the way it is in our current system.

So....Are you submitting your plan?? At least they have a plan and are taking steps to get something implemented. We can talk all we want about yours being a better plan but someone needs to actually submit it.

[The Schwab]

Sheyenne's plan is not the answer. It doesn't address the major issues that class B basketball has. My plan addresses travel concerns by not putting requirements on who you play during the regular season. Most of those schools in the middle class put on the miles traveling all over the state the way it is in our current system.

So....Are you submitting your plan?? At least they have a plan and are taking steps to get something implemented. We can talk all we want about yours being a better plan but someone needs to actually submit it.

Working on it, I'm taking feedback on it and getting the kinks ironed out. IMO we only have one shot at getting this implemented so it needs to be the right plan.

[Vikings2009]

Devils lake, turtle mountains, wahpeton and valley city have no business opting down playing smaller schools.
500 enrollment vs 150-250 that’s bs. Leave them in the class there in already.

Schools with around 100 or less should be class c. And leave it at that if there’s a change.

[WalkingStick]

Devils lake, turtle mountains, wahpeton and valley city have no business opting down playing smaller schools.
500 enrollment vs 150-250 that’s bs. Leave them in the class there in already.

Schools with around 100 or less should be class c. And leave it at that if there’s a change.

But the same ratio of 250 vs. 100 is the problem?!?!

Plus it's not like any of these schools will be undefeated in that middle class...VC & Watford City would still lose to some small school teams...VC lost to Lisbon, Kindred & OG quite often in the past

[tmd33643]

I am Thomas Dwyer, head coach for the Watford City GBB. I have long been a supporter of a 3-class system. My dad is Mike Dwyer, who was the BBB head coach at Shiloh for almost 30 years. My dad has been trying to push a 3-class system for 20 some years. He retired from coaching a while back and his long-time assistant and close friend, Brad Miller took over. My dad was the superintendent at Shiloh for a couple years after that but eventually retired from that as well.

My main point of this post: I saw some comments about how Shiloh would not opt up if they were put in the smallest class. I have it on good authority that Shiloh would opt up. I don't know about the other private schools. That being said, I also have no problem coming up with a system that has multipliers so that some of the private schools have no choice to be in the middle class. But Shiloh would opt up to the middle class even if there weren't any multipliers forcing them to be in the middle class.

I want to clarify that I have supported a 3-class system for a long time; not just because I am in Watford City and want to be moved to a middle class. Even if a 3-class system gets approved, WC will most likely be in the biggest class at some point anyway. Perhaps there would be a year or two of being in the middle class depending on the system that gets approved, but WC will continue to get bigger and eventually get moved up anyway. Currently, we have around 442 HS students. Even if we did stay in the middle class for an extended period, I don’t think Watford City would dominate and win the state championship every year. I would do everything I could to try to make that happen as a coach but again, that is not why I want a 3-class system.

I think a system that can find some more competitive balance overall is crucial. It's not fun for parents, fans, coaches, refs, and players to have so many games throughout the year in both class A and class B in which one team wins by +30 points. A 3-class system won't entirely get rid of that but I do think it will help. I am concerned about the numbers in girls basketball and how it seems to be dropping in every community. Perhaps a 3-class system wouldn’t help that but it certainly wouldn’t hurt and there is a chance it would greatly help some communities as it could allow for a bigger chance for success. Bottom line is our current system has been in place for nearly 60 years and so much has changed since then. There will be pros and cons no matter what we do but it is time to update our current system. I think Schwab’s proposal is a good one and I would love watching the state tournaments for all three classes.

[Flip]

Coach Dwyer, THANK YOU! I even mentioned in the last week or two that your dad had said he wanted three classes.