Sweet 16: Why?

[heimer]

Currently engaged in a Twitter conversation that has leaked into Sweet 16 talk.

If you're in favor of the Sweet 16, why do you want it? What is the reason for it?

Hypothetical: Sweet 16, each region gets two berths, and we all play super-regionals:

#1 seed and #2 seed meet in the finals. I would assume both go to state.

#1 seed and #3 seed meet in finals. #1 seed wins title. Who goes? #1 seed and #3 seed, or #1 seed and the next highest regular season finisher in the regional standings (which would be #2 seed)?

#1 seed upset by #5 seed in the semis. #2 seed wins title. Who goes? #2 seed and #5 seed, or #2 seed and the highest regular season finisher that didn't qualify (#1 seed in this case)

If using districts: If two district champs make the finals, they both go. If a district champ is upset in their half of the bracket, who goes? The finalists?

[Aces]

I saw the Twitter conversation so I want to add a bit of context to this. It was based on a QRF convo for Football, to fix the 11-AA (predominately, correct me if I'm wrong).

I think there already is a Sweet-16 (Regionals). Heimer, help me understand your hypotheticals: Does this mean Regionals and Districts would be removed altogether? That's essentially how I'm understanding it right now. If we're going to "send to state" teams based on final ranks and not on playoff performance, then is there a point to regionals?

Bigger question, what is the reasoning behind the Sweet 16? Is it for better representation? Is it so that we don't have those odd scenarios where (an example) R1:#1 (Ranked in State #1) plays R1:#2 (Ranked in state #3) and R1:#2 wins? If so, I'd propose this as the solution (stealing a bit from FCS).

My proposal:
12-team bracket (I can be swayed to go to 16). Regional Winners receive auto-bid. Top 4 - WRF Ranked in the state that didn't win regionals are in. 12 teams, seeded by QRF make up the bracket determination (must make regionals though for the non-super regional regions). Makes both the regular season and final tournament necessary and important.

[BelfieldBantams]

I think it would be amazing to go to a Sweet 16 but I don't know how well that would work logistically in our state. I don't think you'd be able to do a 16 team state tournament.I also don't think a mammoth sweet 16 game should go up against the Class A tournament maybe the weekend before state. But I do think it's a great idea as we have had a lot of top 5 times not even make it to the state tournament because they got beat by another top 10 team.

If it were to happen though I say the top 2 teams from each region based on the tournament make up the Sweet 16. The regular season makes up the seeds and we know there are regions where there are 3 legit teams before a big drop off. In that case the #1 seed is a big advantage, BUT you still need to win games that count. I personally don't trust the QRF from what I saw during football and I do believe you've got to win games at the end of the season to get to where you want to go.

Sorry if this side tracks your conversation, but before this happens, we need to see a 3rd class. That would probably solve more issues that a Sweet 16 would.

[defensewinsgames]

I wasn't part of the original discussion but the logic is easy to understand to me. Look at region 1 and 2 this year. Kindred, Enderlin, Central Cass, HCV, Thompson, and North Border. Only two of those teams will make the state tournament even though 5 of them are ranked/receiving votes right now and all of them are capable of winning a game at state. You won't even convince me some of those teams wouldn't win regions out west - in previous years the same can be said about west teams winning out east. Let's say Enderlin beat Kindred in the regional tournament or vice versa. Does anyone believe the other team (who lost and doesn't even make the tournament) wouldn't have a shot to make a state championship game? I would say the answer is probably no. I like the idea of opening a few at large bids because it allows top teams in the state who are in a region with other top teams to have a chance.

Someone mentioned logistics and that becomes the hard part. I would say one idea is to look at doing it play-in game style where the week before the tournament the non-seeded teams (and seeds have to go to region winners) play each other on a random draw to make the tournament field of 8. Or you go full on bye for the region winners and then have the remaining 4 or 8 play to get in like the do at the NCAA and expand the B.

Above all I agree with someone else's previous comment that a 3rd class would probably take care of this issue. Look at those plan proposals and who would go out of the smallest class to the middle class and it opens up the regions in a way that would make most people happy I think. Of the 6 teams I mentioned at least 3 if not 4 of the teams are always in the middle class of the proposals I have seen. But then again, maybe this creates new issues.

[lennylive]

I posted this in another thread

How about this for a twist on tournament time. All regionals play out. Then 2 mini-state tourneys..sort of a EDC/WDC top 2 of Regions 1,2,3,4...and 5,6,7,8 play to determine the top 8 teams that go to state. Toss in the Challenge game(in this mini-state tourney) if 3rd place never played 2nd , I'm betting a few upsets on that platform. Plus we get 1 more week of BBB.. IMO that would be Great (can we ever get enough of BBB?).

I also support a 3 class system. Should've happened several years ago.. but until that happens(which will be never) we are stuck whining and complaining about the Big Bs and the privates. It won't be long and CC,NC and Kindred will have to go into being class A like Watford city, at the current rate of school enrollment growth. You could throw HCV and Thompson and maybe Grafton into that also.

[The Schwab]

I am fully in favor of a sweet 16, but I don't like it without a 3 class system as well because currently we have two regions where we are almost guaranteed a small school rep ( 3 and 8 ). I think with the sweet 16 you will end up with very few "small schools" making it.

If we go to a sweet 16 I would want to put it in like South Dakota has it. They play a regional tournament where teams are seeded by their "Power Points" (similar to QRF). They play down to the championship game, but don't play the game so one of the region representatives aren't hurt in the power points by a loss. The state then seeds the teams 1-16 and plays them at a neutral site. There are coaches in SD that aren't very happy with the system due to the fact that most teams don't ever get to play for a championship as they got rid of districts and no regional championship game.

However, if we were to put it in to our state right now. Using KMAV's computer rankings these would be the matchups:

#1 Enderlin (R1 #1) vs. #16 Surrey (R6 #2)- This game would be a blowout
#2 FWM (R4 #1) vs. #15 Dunseith (R4 #2)- This game would be 20+
#3 Kindred (R1 #2) vs. #14 Stanley (R8 #2)- Wouldn't be close
#4 Ellendale (R3 #1) vs. #13 Beulah (R7 #2)- I'd give Beulah a slight edge.
#5 Bismarck Shiloh (R5 #1) vs. 12 Powers Lake (R8 #2)- Shiloh by double digits
#6 Thompson (R2 #1) vs. #11 HCV (R2 #2)- Close game IMO, Thompson has 2 wins over them, I'd say HCV
#7 LaMoure (R3 #2) vs. #10 Minot Bishop Ryan (R6 #1)- I'd say MBR would be a favorite
#8 Flasher (R5 #2) vs. #9 Dickinson Trinity- DT beat them earlier, slight favorite

If my predictions would hold we would have: 3 privates, 4 very large schools and Enderlin

It would make for a higher quality state tournament, and might even make a better case for the 3 class system.

[defensewinsgames]

The more I have thought about the way to do this the more I have come to the same conclusion as Schwab.

If you do the 16 with a pre-qualifier or play-in or whatever you want to call it you probably end up squeezing out some small schools for privates and large class b schools which probably doesn't make the whole system a lot more gratifying. I think he said it best "I don't like it without a 3 class system.....you will end up with very few 'small schools' making it."

[senditin]

#1 Enderlin (R1 #1) vs. #16 Surrey (R6 #2)- This game would be a blowout
#2 FWM (R4 #1) vs. #15 Dunseith (R4 #2)- This game would be 20+ ?????