General Boys BB thread

[momofathletes]

Past state champs..2nd...3rd,4th
2021..Kindred,EKM,Grafton,4WM
2020...covid..I would say Richland, 4WM ,Grafton and EKM would have done Very well
2019...Thompson, Shiloh Christian, Richland,Bishop Ryan
2018...Hillsboro-Central Valley, Bishop Ryan, St. John, Carrington
2017...Hillsboro-Central Valley, Four Winds-Minnewaukan, Ellendale, Fargo Oak Grove
2016... Four Winds-Minnewaukan, Our Redeemer's, Dickinson Trinity, Shiloh Christian, Northern Cass
2015....Rugby, Four Winds-Minnewaukan, Fargo Oak Grove, LaMoure-LM,
2014...Fargo Oak Grove, Rugby, North Star, Linton-HMB
2013...: Milnor, Four Winds-Minnewaukan, Trenton, LaMoure-LM

Taking 22 of the 32 top 4 places pretty much says it..and of the covid year I would say at least 2 wouldve placed top 4..if not 3


I was just stating that the East has dominated as of recently..wasnt saying the West didnt have any talent Region wise..but the EAST has dominated...BigTime in the past 9 years.. And yes..High Density in population makes for the opportunity to have more talent so to speak.
Prior to 2013..The west dominated...many Western teams placed in the top 4 spots from 2000-2013

No offense to Grafton, but it is guaranteed that they would not have done well at state 2020 covid year since they didn't make it past semis in regionals. HCV cruised through regionals that year, beating Hatton-Northwood in the finals. HCV should have represented region 2 quite well however.

[lennylive]

Past state champs..2nd...3rd,4th
2021..Kindred,EKM,Grafton,4WM
2020...covid..I would say Richland, 4WM ,Grafton and EKM would have done Very well
2019...Thompson, Shiloh Christian, Richland,Bishop Ryan
2018...Hillsboro-Central Valley, Bishop Ryan, St. John, Carrington
2017...Hillsboro-Central Valley, Four Winds-Minnewaukan, Ellendale, Fargo Oak Grove
2016... Four Winds-Minnewaukan, Our Redeemer's, Dickinson Trinity, Shiloh Christian, Northern Cass
2015....Rugby, Four Winds-Minnewaukan, Fargo Oak Grove, LaMoure-LM,
2014...Fargo Oak Grove, Rugby, North Star, Linton-HMB
2013...: Milnor, Four Winds-Minnewaukan, Trenton, LaMoure-LM

Taking 22 of the 32 top 4 places pretty much says it..and of the covid year I would say at least 2 wouldve placed top 4..if not 3


I was just stating that the East has dominated as of recently..wasnt saying the West didnt have any talent Region wise..but the EAST has dominated...BigTime in the past 9 years.. And yes..High Density in population makes for the opportunity to have more talent so to speak.
Prior to 2013..The west dominated...many Western teams placed in the top 4 spots from 2000-2013

No offense to Grafton, but it is guaranteed that they would not have done well at state 2020 covid year since they didn't make it past semis in regionals. HCV cruised through regionals that year, beating Hatton-Northwood in the finals. HCV should have represented region 2 quite well however.

woops my bad...thanks for correcting me on that...and yes HCV wouldve done quite well

[WalkingStick]

Past state champs..2nd...3rd,4th
2021..Kindred,EKM,Grafton,4WM
2020...covid..I would say Richland, 4WM ,Grafton and EKM would have done Very well
2019...Thompson, Shiloh Christian, Richland,Bishop Ryan
2018...Hillsboro-Central Valley, Bishop Ryan, St. John, Carrington
2017...Hillsboro-Central Valley, Four Winds-Minnewaukan, Ellendale, Fargo Oak Grove
2016... Four Winds-Minnewaukan, Our Redeemer's, Dickinson Trinity, Shiloh Christian, Northern Cass
2015....Rugby, Four Winds-Minnewaukan, Fargo Oak Grove, LaMoure-LM,
2014...Fargo Oak Grove, Rugby, North Star, Linton-HMB
2013...: Milnor, Four Winds-Minnewaukan, Trenton, LaMoure-LM

Taking 22 of the 32 top 4 places pretty much says it..and of the covid year I would say at least 2 wouldve placed top 4..if not 3

I was just stating that the East has dominated as of recently..wasnt saying the West didnt have any talent Region wise..but the EAST has dominated...BigTime in the past 9 years.. And yes..High Density in population makes for the opportunity to have more talent so to speak.
Prior to 2013..The west dominated...many Western teams placed in the top 4 spots from 2000-2013

No offense to Grafton, but it is guaranteed that they would not have done well at state 2020 covid year since they didn't make it past semis in regionals. HCV cruised through regionals that year, beating Hatton-Northwood in the finals. HCV should have represented region 2 quite well however.

Also remember that they did the seeding that year as well and FWM/Richland were to play each other; Richland was unseeded and on the tougher side of the bracket. EKM would have struggled with a solid Beulah team as well.

Seedings were:
#2 Rugby vs. New Town
#3 Beulah vs. E-K-M
#1 Four Winds-Minn. vs. Richland
#4 Hillsboro-CV vs. #5 Shiloh Christian

[lennylive]

so, It may have been,????
4WM vs Rugby for championship
HCV vs Beulah for 3 and 4
and probably Richland vs ??? for 5 ????

as I had stated a good chance 2 East teams wouldve been in top 4 spots

[classB4ever]

Past state champs..2nd...3rd,4th
2021..Kindred,EKM,Grafton,4WM
2020...covid..I would say Richland, 4WM ,Grafton and EKM would have done Very well
2019...Thompson, Shiloh Christian, Richland,Bishop Ryan
2018...Hillsboro-Central Valley, Bishop Ryan, St. John, Carrington
2017...Hillsboro-Central Valley, Four Winds-Minnewaukan, Ellendale, Fargo Oak Grove
2016... Four Winds-Minnewaukan, Our Redeemer's, Dickinson Trinity, Shiloh Christian, Northern Cass
2015....Rugby, Four Winds-Minnewaukan, Fargo Oak Grove, LaMoure-LM,
2014...Fargo Oak Grove, Rugby, North Star, Linton-HMB
2013...: Milnor, Four Winds-Minnewaukan, Trenton, LaMoure-LM

Taking 22 of the 32 top 4 places pretty much says it..and of the covid year I would say at least 2 wouldve placed top 4..if not 3

3

Why did you quit at 8 years? Doesn’t fit your narrative? Central Cass, Kindred, Oak Grove. I have a better question, why haven’t they won more? 2 biggest schools in class b and a private in largest city in ND and don’t dominate? Why? What a joke. You want to get in to stats with me and I will oblige. Region 1 has been the biggest egg layer of all time. Kindred finally won and you guys puff your chest. Bring it on. I’ll take 4-winds. PS, all the other Region 4 teams who have been successful combined don’t have as many students as CC and Kindred.

[WalkingStick]

^^^BAM^^^

---Region 1 supporter with limited blinders

[WalkingStick]

well as of right now HCV is handling CC in CC (49-35 lead with under 6 to go) and LaMoure is leading Enderlin 44-39 with under 5 left

[WalkingStick]

LaMoure-LM DEF. #3 Enderlin 54-50
Hillsboro-Central Valley DEF. #5 Central Cass 64-46

[lennylive]

Past state champs..2nd...3rd,4th
2021..Kindred,EKM,Grafton,4WM
2020...covid..I would say Richland, 4WM ,Grafton and EKM would have done Very well
2019...Thompson, Shiloh Christian, Richland,Bishop Ryan
2018...Hillsboro-Central Valley, Bishop Ryan, St. John, Carrington
2017...Hillsboro-Central Valley, Four Winds-Minnewaukan, Ellendale, Fargo Oak Grove
2016... Four Winds-Minnewaukan, Our Redeemer's, Dickinson Trinity, Shiloh Christian, Northern Cass
2015....Rugby, Four Winds-Minnewaukan, Fargo Oak Grove, LaMoure-LM,
2014...Fargo Oak Grove, Rugby, North Star, Linton-HMB
2013...: Milnor, Four Winds-Minnewaukan, Trenton, LaMoure-LM

Taking 22 of the 32 top 4 places pretty much says it..and of the covid year I would say at least 2 wouldve placed top 4..if not 3

3

Why did you quit at 8 years? Doesn’t fit your narrative? Central Cass, Kindred, Oak Grove. I have a better question, why haven’t they won more? 2 biggest schools in class b and a private in largest city in ND and don’t dominate? Why? What a joke. You want to get in to stats with me and I will oblige. Region 1 has been the biggest egg layer of all time. Kindred finally won and you guys puff your chest. Bring it on. I’ll take 4-winds. PS, all the other Region 4 teams who have been successful combined don’t have as many students as CC and Kindred.

Wow..get all twisted up... I was just responding to classb4evers response to mine which was:

"Before you people break your arms patting yourselves on the back, I suggest you look at more than 1 1/2 years to see where the success has been region wise. Guessing Region 4, Region 2 and Region 7 might have something to say. Maybe you should check out the last 10 years? Also, might not be too surprising that the most densely populated portion of the state has more teams being successful. "

no need to get all defensive. he said look back 10 years...so I went back 9.... I also stated the West was more dominate the 13 years prior...I never once said Region 1 Was the BEST region of all time...I basically stated they are a tough Region to get through in recent years, and there is competition between the top 5 teams for the most part.
BTW.. I am not from Kindred, or CC. I am from Enderlin... a school that has been stacked for many years as of lately. but they can never seem to pull it together in tourney time..I won't say any more than that.
I am however glad that Kindred won last year...very deserving for Woehl and all his players.

Enderlin struggled again tonight (turnovers 16 vs 5 of LLM, shots didnt fall, a few low % shots) against LLM. Thielges always seems to do what he needs to do to pull off an upset. Kudos to the Loboes

And HCV played a good game tonight at CC..I thought Thompson looked like they might be the team from R2...but it seems as though it might be a 3-way tie between Thompson,HCV and NB.

Just goes to prove, on any given night..anyone can be beat... no matter if your #1,2,3,...if you play sloppy ball, chances are you will lose.
1 more note...I don't see anyone beating 4WM this year...If they keep playing at the level they are at.

[lennylive]

How about this for a twist on tournament time. All regionals play out. Then 2 mini-state tourneys..sort of a EDC/WDC top 2 of Regions 1,2,3,4...and 5,6,7,8 play to determine the top 8 teams that go to state. Toss in the Challenge game(in this mini-state tourney) if 3rd place never played 2nd , I'm betting a few upsets on that platform. Plus we get 1 more week of BBB.. IMO that would be Great (can we ever get enough of BBB?).

I also support a 3 class system. Should've happened several years ago.. but until that happens(which will be never) we are stuck whining and complaining about the Big Bs and the privates. It won't be long and CC,NC and Kindred will have to go into being class A like Watford city, at the current rate of school enrollment growth. You could throw HCV and Thompson and maybe Grafton into that also.

[GOPACKGO!!!]

Past state champs..2nd...3rd,4th
2021..Kindred,EKM,Grafton,4WM
2020...covid..I would say Richland, 4WM ,HCV and EKM would have done Very well
2019...Thompson, Shiloh Christian, Richland,Bishop Ryan
2018...Hillsboro-Central Valley, Bishop Ryan, St. John, Carrington
2017...Hillsboro-Central Valley, Four Winds-Minnewaukan, Ellendale, Fargo Oak Grove
2016... Four Winds-Minnewaukan, Our Redeemer's, Dickinson Trinity, Shiloh Christian, Northern Cass
2015....Rugby, Four Winds-Minnewaukan, Fargo Oak Grove, LaMoure-LM,
2014...Fargo Oak Grove, Rugby, North Star, Linton-HMB
2013...: Milnor, Four Winds-Minnewaukan, Trenton, LaMoure-LM

Taking 22 of the 32 top 4 places pretty much says it..and of the covid year I would say at least 2 wouldve placed top 4..if not 3

3

Why did you quit at 8 years? Doesn’t fit your narrative? Central Cass, Kindred, Oak Grove. I have a better question, why haven’t they won more? 2 biggest schools in class b and a private in largest city in ND and don’t dominate? Why? What a joke. You want to get in to stats with me and I will oblige. Region 1 has been the biggest egg layer of all time. Kindred finally won and you guys puff your chest. Bring it on. I’ll take 4-winds. PS, all the other Region 4 teams who have been successful combined don’t have as many students as CC and Kindred.

CC, Kindred haven't been that big for all that many years, & Oak Grove isn't very big at all, but I agree there is potential for recruiting.

Region 1 having 3 State Champions in the last 9 years is egg laying? 7 of the last 9 years going to Region 1 & 2 is terrible? Yes 7, because they would of won in 2020 as well.

The winds of change are here and your mad the the East is dominating the B. Vote for a 3 class system if you want change. The East is going to keep winning, and this year I could easily see Kindred winning it again. 100% agree with Lenny saying Region 1 tourney is going to be a mini State B.

[maddog1971]

It is cycles... plain and simple. Sometime the west is really good and sometimes they are not. For the last 9 years the east has been very good. Also look at the population in our state. The East has the people. Example... if Powers Lake and Kindred play each other in the first round of the State Tournament... It will not be good. The Region 1 Tournament will have some surprises this year. It will be a fun tournament to watch. Right now Kindred is still winning and they have only had their whole team together for a handful of games. Saying nobody will beat 4winds is stupid. They are a very good team but really NOBODY? They said the same thing about last years team... which is better than this team... and they lost two games at state.

Just enjoy the games. Some fun basketball to watch.....

Yes I support a 3 class system(big B's and privates) as well to make things more competitive BUT I do love the B and would hate to see if go away.

[classB4ever]

CC, Kindred haven't been that big for all that many years, & Oak Grove isn't very big at all.

Seriously? That's more RUNFORRESTRUN than GOPACKGO.

Region 1 having 3 State Champions in the last 9 years is egg laying? 7 of the last 9 years going to Region 1 & 2 is terrible? Yes 7, because they would of won in 2020 as well.

Last 26 years Average Finish at Class B State Tourney by Region:
Region 2 3.16
Region 4 3.36
Region 6 4.12
Region 7 4.16
Region 1 4.84
Region 3 5.08
Region 5 5.52
Region 8 5.88

Last 11 years:
Region 4 2.36
Region R1 & R6 3.82
Region 2 4.0
Region 3 4.91
Region 7 5.0
Region 5 5.91
Region 8 6.36

Last 6 years:
Region 2 2.40
Region 4 3.00
Region 1 4.00
Region 6 4.00
Region 3 4.80
Region 7 4.80
Region 5 5.60
Region 8 7.40

From my original post, I was speaking of R1 vs. rest of state. You brought Region 2 into the argument because you needed their numbers to make your case. That's ok. I'll stick by my numbers.

[classB4ever]

The winds of change are here and your mad the the East is dominating the B. Vote for a 3 class system if you want change. The East is going to keep winning, and this year I could easily see Kindred winning it again. 100% agree with Lenny saying Region 1 tourney is going to be a mini State B.

I am from the East, so to suggest "being mad" is comical. The original string of comments had a slight "arrogance" to them, along with yours. Let's wait for the tourney to play out. R1 has been represented heavily on this site for many, many years. I have watched only to see them fizzle as many times as being successful. As stated earlier, R1 and R2 are located in the most densely populated area of the state, it shouldn't surprise to see them have more strength from top to bottom in their regions.

[Flip]

I don't think state tournament success is a great way to determine region strength. If Four Winds wins it all this year it doesn't necessarily mean region 4 was good.

[classB4ever]

I don't think state tournament success is a great way to determine region strength. If Four Winds wins it all this year it doesn't necessarily mean region 4 was good.

On a yearly basis, I agree. But there are other variables to look at when comparing. Not to mention, numerous years have went by with this same argument, only to see the region winner finish in bottom half of the state tourney. So, how good was the region in the first place? Just because all the teams in a region play one another close, does that mean they are the toughest region? Many variables to consider.

[The Schwab]

I don't think state tournament success is a great way to determine region strength. If Four Winds wins it all this year it doesn't necessarily mean region 4 was good.

I definitely agree with this statement, but I don't know if I have the right answer on how to compare region strength. I do know that I've been following class B boys basketball very closely for 25 years (starting in 1996) and over that time I would say region 7 and region 2 have been very very strong. Region 6 has been very solid as well. Over the last 10ish years region 1 has been very very strong. Between 1996 and 2012 it was almost a guarantee that the region 1 representative would be playing in the consolation bracket. During that stretch the region 1 rep took 8th (4 times), more than they played in the semi-finals (3 times).

[classB4ever]

Have seen the computer rankings, RPI rankings, etc. There are many problems with these programs. Mainly, during the entry of data at the beginning of the year, someone has to decide who the good teams are and who the bad teams are to determine strength of schedule. As the year progresses, bad information in the beginning only increases bad rankings. There are ways to overcome this, but it's a full time job. Other than having out of region play and someone tracking SOS and also knowing if teams are at full strength, home, away, neutral, it's tedious.

[WalkingStick]

Isn't strength of schedule just using the opposing teams win-loss (2/3) and then the win-loss of the opponent's opponents (1/3). Nothing is used or pre-determined before the season begins on that...it's quantitative and ever changing. Before the season starts...all those numbers were 0 and hence the SOS was .000; quantitative formulas aren't quality until at least 1/3 of the season has been played (for the sake of more numbers in the formula).

Another thing that may affect R1 & R2 on having higher SOS or RPI ratings on the classbbasketball website is that non-Class B ND games DO NOT count, and a fair share of teams play MN or SD opponents.

[The Schwab]

Isn't strength of schedule just using the opposing teams win-loss (2/3) and then the win-loss of the opponent's opponents (1/3). Nothing is used or pre-determined before the season begins on that...it's quantitative and ever changing. Before the season starts...all those numbers were 0 and hence the SOS was .000; quantitative formulas aren't quality until at least 1/3 of the season has been played (for the sake of more numbers in the formula).

Is it still true that neither of the sites use out of state games in their formulas? That hurts a lot of teams on near the borders.

[classB4ever]

Isn't strength of schedule just using the opposing teams win-loss (2/3) and then the win-loss of the opponent's opponents (1/3). Nothing is used or pre-determined before the season begins on that...it's quantitative and ever changing. Before the season starts...all those numbers were 0 and hence the SOS was .000; quantitative formulas aren't quality until at least 1/3 of the season has been played (for the sake of more numbers in the formula).

You are probably correct. Was thinking back when I kept up with all of ND scores for myself. Had a problem with SOS or head-head. Will have to go back and look to see. Was thinking the weighting wasn't enough in the beginning of the season for 1 of these. For instance, have seen teams with better records and have won the head to head matchup being ranked below the team they beat. Made no sense.

[WalkingStick]

Isn't strength of schedule just using the opposing teams win-loss (2/3) and then the win-loss of the opponent's opponents (1/3). Nothing is used or pre-determined before the season begins on that...it's quantitative and ever changing. Before the season starts...all those numbers were 0 and hence the SOS was .000; quantitative formulas aren't quality until at least 1/3 of the season has been played (for the sake of more numbers in the formula).

Is it still true that neither of the sites use out of state games in their formulas? That hurts a lot of teams on near the borders.

It actually can help them or hurt them...depending on how you want to look at it. MN's QRF doesn't include them either. I know there was a formula that utilized out of state games but that was tedious at the time because getting MT records stunk back then; SD & MN are VASTLY easier now.

[WalkingStick]

Isn't strength of schedule just using the opposing teams win-loss (2/3) and then the win-loss of the opponent's opponents (1/3). Nothing is used or pre-determined before the season begins on that...it's quantitative and ever changing. Before the season starts...all those numbers were 0 and hence the SOS was .000; quantitative formulas aren't quality until at least 1/3 of the season has been played (for the sake of more numbers in the formula).

You are probably correct. Was thinking back when I kept up with all of ND scores for myself. Had a problem with SOS or head-head. Will have to go back and look to see. Was thinking the weighting wasn't enough in the beginning of the season for 1 of these. For instance, have seen teams with better records and have won the head to head matchup being ranked below the team they beat. Made no sense.

There are flaws to everything...nothing is perfect. I've seen these scenarios too. If a formula was to be used for seeding purposes though there would need to be tiebreakers available to help with these situations.

[WalkingStick]

Isn't strength of schedule just using the opposing teams win-loss (2/3) and then the win-loss of the opponent's opponents (1/3). Nothing is used or pre-determined before the season begins on that...it's quantitative and ever changing. Before the season starts...all those numbers were 0 and hence the SOS was .000; quantitative formulas aren't quality until at least 1/3 of the season has been played (for the sake of more numbers in the formula).

Is it still true that neither of the sites use out of state games in their formulas? That hurts a lot of teams on near the borders.

It actually can help them or hurt them...depending on how you want to look at it. MN's QRF doesn't include them either. I know there was a formula that utilized out of state games but that was tedious at the time because getting MT records stunk back then; SD & MN are VASTLY easier now.

Give me to Wednesday and I will try to recreate that formula...I remember enough on it.

[maddog1971]

I don't know if these links work but the dunks from the past week... WOW. The game is different in this state right now with kids living above the rim.

http://www.hudl.com/v/2GrCmD

http://www.hudl.com/v/2GrCmD