2021 State Tournament

[justplayalready]

Total random on this thought...I noticed Kindred didn't dunk in warmups(Only saw Fri & Sat in person). Is this something they've done all year?

found it interesting, and refreshingly different...

No dunking in warm ups for Kindred. They each will do at least one lay in above the rim...
BUT... They have about 6 kids that can throw it down.... and more on the way. Olson and Peraza are two the best jumpers and dunkers in the state and they can do all the 360 (540), windmill, reverse between the legs dunks you want to see.
If you like above the rim action... you will get it for next few years in Kindred again.

and Yes the tournament was very physical... but that is the way the game is going. Post players better go up strong and be able to finish through contact and guards better be able to take hand checking and taps on the arms.

Is this coming from the coaches? Or more of an "attitude" of the players...again I find it refreshing when their focus is beyond showboating in warmups.

[maddog1971]

Coach.... Trust me the crowd and the kids would gladly put on show....

[packers21]

Coach.... Trust me the crowd and the kids would gladly put on show....

The crowd? You do alot of dunking from the stands?

[The Schwab]

Coach.... Trust me the crowd and the kids would gladly put on show....

The crowd? You do alot of dunking from the stands?

I bet they could set up a fundraiser for a chance to see that!!!!!

[B Historian]

This was the third lowest scoring state tournament in the last 60 years. The region tournaments combined were the lowest scoring in at least 17 years. The teams are bigger and more athletic than ever but the shot clock combined with teams being allowed to be overly physical around the basket has led to some ugly basketball. I'm a defensive guy and I believe it's completely possible to have a low scoring game be well played. But what I saw this last weekend was low scoring basketball that was ugly to watch because it came paired with teams shooting 3-23 or 4-28 on 3-pointers.

[maddog1971]

This was the third lowest scoring state tournament in the last 60 years. The region tournaments combined were the lowest scoring in at least 17 years. The teams are bigger and more athletic than ever but the shot clock combined with teams being allowed to be overly physical around the basket has led to some ugly basketball. I'm a defensive guy and I believe it's completely possible to have a low scoring game be well played. But what I saw this last weekend was low scoring basketball that was ugly to watch because it came paired with teams shooting 3-23 or 4-28 on 3-pointers.

I love defense and I love how some things are called now. I love the fact that a defender can jump straight up in the air and have the offensive player jump into him and it is not a foul on the defender. If the offense makes the contact there should not be a foul. I love the fact that they let kids go out for a rebound and grab the board even if a small guy is standing in front of him.
I hate that kids hand check, grab and bump kids all over the court and as long as the ball handler can stay on his feet their is no foul

[vikingman]

Two questions: 1) Where can I see ALL the stat sheets from the Girls and Boys Tournament. 2) Are any of the 'leapers' from Kindred a force in track as high-jumpers or long-jumpers?

[maddog1971]

Two questions: 1) Where can I see ALL the stat sheets from the Girls and Boys Tournament. 2) Are any of the 'leapers' from Kindred a force in track as high-jumpers or long-jumpers?

Peraza will be a high jumper and well ..... anything else he wants to be but the others either Golf or play baseball.

[BasketballMind]

This was the third lowest scoring state tournament in the last 60 years. The region tournaments combined were the lowest scoring in at least 17 years. The teams are bigger and more athletic than ever but the shot clock combined with teams being allowed to be overly physical around the basket has led to some ugly basketball. I'm a defensive guy and I believe it's completely possible to have a low scoring game be well played. But what I saw this last weekend was low scoring basketball that was ugly to watch because it came paired with teams shooting 3-23 or 4-28 on 3-pointers.

I love defense and I love how some things are called now. I love the fact that a defender can jump straight up in the air and have the offensive player jump into him and it is not a foul on the defender. If the offense makes the contact there should not be a foul. I love the fact that they let kids go out for a rebound and grab the board even if a small guy is standing in front of him.
I hate that kids hand check, grab and bump kids all over the court and as long as the ball handler can stay on his feet their is no foul

Defense is great, but this state tournament was as poorly officiated as I can remember. Way too rough and physical. The announcers were calling it "like a wrestling match" out there. I'd argue that most wrestling matches are safer than a lot of what was allowed at the state tournament. The young crews were letting everything go and the older crews were calling a tight game. It was very inconsistent and frustrating to watch.

[BelfieldBantams]

This was the third lowest scoring state tournament in the last 60 years. The region tournaments combined were the lowest scoring in at least 17 years. The teams are bigger and more athletic than ever but the shot clock combined with teams being allowed to be overly physical around the basket has led to some ugly basketball. I'm a defensive guy and I believe it's completely possible to have a low scoring game be well played. But what I saw this last weekend was low scoring basketball that was ugly to watch because it came paired with teams shooting 3-23 or 4-28 on 3-pointers.

I love defense and I love how some things are called now. I love the fact that a defender can jump straight up in the air and have the offensive player jump into him and it is not a foul on the defender. If the offense makes the contact there should not be a foul. I love the fact that they let kids go out for a rebound and grab the board even if a small guy is standing in front of him.
I hate that kids hand check, grab and bump kids all over the court and as long as the ball handler can stay on his feet their is no foul

Defense is great, but this state tournament was as poorly officiated as I can remember. Way too rough and physical. The announcers were calling it "like a wrestling match" out there. I'd argue that most wrestling matches are safer than a lot of what was allowed at the state tournament. The young crews were letting everything go and the older crews were calling a tight game. It was very inconsistent and frustrating to watch.

That is how basketball is officiated these days. It amazes me how much contact an offensive player has to play through to get a call AND how much a defensive player can get away with these days. It used to be only the NBA would do that, but then it started in college and now it is a mainstay in High School and has trickled down to Junior High. It's only going to get worse unless the rule book actually gets followed.

As far as consistency during the state tourney, from the games I saw I thought it was pretty consistent throughout BUT I thought more and more was let go as the tourney went on.

[The Schwab]

I don't like the direction officiating is going when it comes to high school basketball. I know that states around us play a much more physical brand of basketball. It simply comes down to, was the contact illegal? If it was, was there an advantage gained? If yes then it has to be a foul. It makes no mention of an adjective for the word advantage, doesn't matter how small or how large.

[BasketballMind]

I don't like the direction officiating is going when it comes to high school basketball. I know that states around us play a much more physical brand of basketball. It simply comes down to, was the contact illegal? If it was, was there an advantage gained? If yes then it has to be a foul. It makes no mention of an adjective for the word advantage, doesn't matter how small or how large.

We are running out of referees coming up the ranks right now and I can't say I'm surprised. Athletic directors are often refereeing their own games because they can't find anyone. The best referees in the state get berated because as sure as the sun comes up, half the crowd understands the game and half doesn't. It's usually the half that doesn't that tends to be the loudest. If a referee went 99/100 on making the right call, whoever was on the short end of the wrong call would say he's the worst official ever.

[The Schwab]

I don't like the direction officiating is going when it comes to high school basketball. I know that states around us play a much more physical brand of basketball. It simply comes down to, was the contact illegal? If it was, was there an advantage gained? If yes then it has to be a foul. It makes no mention of an adjective for the word advantage, doesn't matter how small or how large.

We are running out of referees coming up the ranks right now and I can't say I'm surprised. Athletic directors are often refereeing their own games because they can't find anyone. The best referees in the state get berated because as sure as the sun comes up, half the crowd understands the game and half doesn't. It's usually the half that doesn't that tends to be the loudest. If a referee went 99/100 on making the right call, whoever was on the short end of the wrong call would say he's the worst official ever.

You're exactly right, and we also have to take into account that the same things happen when it comes to coaches, players and even radio announcers (I've heard one announcer get scolded by a fan after a game). Everyone in the crowd seems to think that they can do a better job when it comes to all of these parts to the game (maybe not the announcers in most cases).

I think a large part of the lack of officials has to do with the fact that for a long time the "good ol boys club" reffed tournaments every year and the new officials who were working hard got fed up with not getting any tournaments, so they just gave up officiating.

[BasketballMind]

I don't like the direction officiating is going when it comes to high school basketball. I know that states around us play a much more physical brand of basketball. It simply comes down to, was the contact illegal? If it was, was there an advantage gained? If yes then it has to be a foul. It makes no mention of an adjective for the word advantage, doesn't matter how small or how large.

We are running out of referees coming up the ranks right now and I can't say I'm surprised. Athletic directors are often refereeing their own games because they can't find anyone. The best referees in the state get berated because as sure as the sun comes up, half the crowd understands the game and half doesn't. It's usually the half that doesn't that tends to be the loudest. If a referee went 99/100 on making the right call, whoever was on the short end of the wrong call would say he's the worst official ever.

You're exactly right, and we also have to take into account that the same things happen when it comes to coaches, players and even radio announcers (I've heard one announcer get scolded by a fan after a game). Everyone in the crowd seems to think that they can do a better job when it comes to all of these parts to the game (maybe not the announcers in most cases).

I think a large part of the lack of officials has to do with the fact that for a long time the "good ol boys club" reffed tournaments every year and the new officials who were working hard got fed up with not getting any tournaments, so they just gave up officiating.

Many of the "good ol boys club" types will not allow themselves to be questioned by anyone. Could be a coach fresh out of college in their first C-squad game or a varsity coach with 300+ wins and multiple state tournament appearances. They take any type of questioning or clarification towards them personally.

[Sportsrube]

I see the officials problem only getting worse. Why would anyone want to put themselves thru the verbal abuse from fans and coaches. The money's pretty good, but is it worth it, especially if you are from a small town and everyone around the area knows you, you can't even go out for a burger without some idiot yapping at you about last weeks game or heck even a call from last season. The fans are the biggest problem, but some coaches need to tone it down also. It is getting harder and harder to find someone to officiate JH and Elementary games as well for the same reasons. Some of these JH and Elementary coaches act like they are coaching a state tournament game and spend more time yapping at officials than they do coaching. The great Don Meyer once said "My dream season is to have a team full of orphans and to play every game in an empty gym" and he may have been on to something.

[packers21]

I see the officials problem only getting worse. Why would anyone want to put themselves thru the verbal abuse from fans and coaches. The money's pretty good, but is it worth it, especially if you are from a small town and everyone around the area knows you, you can't even go out for a burger without some idiot yapping at you about last weeks game or heck even a call from last season. The fans are the biggest problem, but some coaches need to tone it down also. It is getting harder and harder to find someone to officiate JH and Elementary games as well for the same reasons. Some of these JH and Elementary coaches act like they are coaching a state tournament game and spend more time yapping at officials than they do coaching. The great Don Meyer once said "My dream season is to have a team full of orphans and to play every game in an empty gym" and he may have been on to something.

Bet he wishes he was around for a covid season

[BasketballMind]

I see the officials problem only getting worse. Why would anyone want to put themselves thru the verbal abuse from fans and coaches. The money's pretty good, but is it worth it, especially if you are from a small town and everyone around the area knows you, you can't even go out for a burger without some idiot yapping at you about last weeks game or heck even a call from last season. The fans are the biggest problem, but some coaches need to tone it down also. It is getting harder and harder to find someone to officiate JH and Elementary games as well for the same reasons. Some of these JH and Elementary coaches act like they are coaching a state tournament game and spend more time yapping at officials than they do coaching. The great Don Meyer once said "My dream season is to have a team full of orphans and to play every game in an empty gym" and he may have been on to something.

If you want your kids to respect officials and represent your school well, it starts with you. There's a difference between backing up your guys and standing up for them and being an insufferable maniac. I've reffed JH and Elementary games plenty over the years and the gap from the good coaches to the crazy ones is astounding. Parents in the crowds of those games aren't any better. Those games are typically in smaller gyms and there are only parents there so it's way more blatant and embarrassing when adults act like it's the Final Four at 4:45 pm on a Tuesday in rural North Dakota.

[maddog1971]

I just want the games to be consistent. If the 6'5 kid is in the post with two hands in his back and gets push when he shoots with a forearm... and that is not a foul... then when the 5"10 kid comes in the lane with one hard on him... and that is a foul.... That makes no sense. I love a physical game as long as kids on not getting hurt and BS elbows or under cutting is not happening. If you are going to let the little guys hand check... then the big guys can hand check as well.
I tired being a Ref for a little bit but I was horrible. I was busy watching the game and not calling the game. I stuck to Coaching.... by the way 16 years of coaching and one Tech.... that was for calling a time out when I was out of them..... Only time I ever spoke to an official was when kids were getting hurt.

The one set of officials really let it get physical and the others called a closer game... but that is part of the game.... Whatever they pay... double it and it is still not enough.

[BasketballMind]

I just want the games to be consistent. If the 6'5 kid is in the post with two hands in his back and gets push when he shoots with a forearm... and that is not a foul... then when the 5"10 kid comes in the lane with one hard on him... and that is a foul.... That makes no sense. I love a physical game as long as kids on not getting hurt and BS elbows or under cutting is not happening. If you are going to let the little guys hand check... then the big guys can hand check as well.
I tired being a Ref for a little bit but I was horrible. I was busy watching the game and not calling the game. I stuck to Coaching.... by the way 16 years of coaching and one Tech.... that was for calling a time out when I was out of them..... Only time I ever spoke to an official was when kids were getting hurt.

The one set of officials really let it get physical and the others called a closer game... but that is part of the game.... Whatever they pay... double it and it is still not enough.

Consistency is what everyone wants, but we are right on the edge of playing prison rules with certain crews. There needs to be a basic understanding of the rules that if a defender physically impedes an offensive players progress with his/her body that is a foul. There's a difference between beating someone to a spot and just using your hands, arms, and lower body to physically stop someone's movement. It's frustrating to coach kids on defense and explain rules the way they should be enforced to see referees not calling it and then people doing the north dakota chuckle and say "Ah, der just lettin da boys play tonight!" Makes it hard to coach offense and defense when referees allow the game to turn into that.

[maddog1971]

Playing Oaks, Lisbon and EKM during the season really helped Kindred understand that they had better get tough and if they let people bully them... they will get beat. Different parts of the state are called differently as well. The best thing to coach kids now is to play the way the game is being called. That is all you can do.

[Bison-Vikes #1]

The one set of officials really let it get physical and the others called a closer game... but that is part of the game.... Whatever they pay... double it and it is still not enough.

So in running my company, 10 of my employees show up on time at 7:00 and 5 of them decide to show up at 7:30. They all get paid equally and all have the same benefits. But hey, that should be ok because that's part of running a business? How would that make you feel? How do you think the business is going to function? How is morale going to be around that company if the rules are only followed for some of the employees?

There is a rulebook. That rulebook doesn't change because a game is in Region 1 or Region 8. One of my favorite lines from this website (believe it came from Schwab) that I use often when discussing officiating, "A foul in the first quarter should be a foul in the fourth". I will now add to that, "A foul in the first game of the season, should be a foul in the state championship game."

[The Schwab]

Perfect analogy ^^^

[BasketballMind]

The one set of officials really let it get physical and the others called a closer game... but that is part of the game.... Whatever they pay... double it and it is still not enough.

So in running my company, 10 of my employees show up on time at 7:00 and 5 of them decide to show up at 7:30. They all get paid equally and all have the same benefits. But hey, that should be ok because that's part of running a business? How would that make you feel? How do you think the business is going to function? How is morale going to be around that company if the rules are only followed for some of the employees?

There is a rulebook. That rulebook doesn't change because a game is in Region 1 or Region 8. One of my favorite lines from this website (believe it came from Schwab) that I use often when discussing officiating, "A foul in the first quarter should be a foul in the fourth". I will now add to that, "A foul in the first game of the season, should be a foul in the state championship game."

Not a high school example but look at what happened at the end of the UConn women's game the other night. I don't like the "Ah, you don't want to call that at the end of the game" mentality of let the players decide it and not the refs. Yes, the players do decide it and if they foul someone it should be called. That is them deciding it.

Example in high school girls. The end of the Region 1 title game there was a big uproar over the foul called on Central Cass with under a second to go. Kindred ends up missing the FTs anyway, but that was the correct call and it doesn't matter that it's almost the end of regulation . A foul is a foul.

[maddog1971]

I just give all the credit to the officials that I can. I can not do it and I have proved it to myself and others as well. Do I disagree with many calls all game long.... yes I do.... do I get mad.... yes I do.....but at the end of the game as long as no one gets hurt.... These are high school kids and games. Also I have watched games back on tape and been really mad but then.... guess what.. the ref made the right call and I am an idiot. I tell every official I see... Thank you for what you do.

[RedDirtFan]

I maintain that calling the games tighter has too many risks at this level. Most of these teams don't have great depth and nobody wants to see a kid on the bench because of the one or two iffy foul calls that put him or her there. Can you think of the last time you saw a 3 foul first half or foul out that didn't have 1-2 questionable fouls? The worst halves of high school basketball involve one or both teams in double bonus. Call the egregious stuff but otherwise let them play.

The officials' jobs are hard enough, and they already have to put up with enough nonsense. Don't ask them to make it worse for themselves, in my opinion. The only thing I'd like to see a focus on is finding some across the board consistency with block/charge. It is applied differently by different officials just as much as it is misunderstood by non officials.