Class B's Identity Problem

[maddog1971]

Richland is a great point. They had a group of parents and students that said they were going to work off their butt and go to state. That group of kids went out and earned it. They went to every travel ball tournament they could, hit the weights and lived in the gym.... They were the best team in Region 1 for 3 years.
Richland 2006, 2019, 2020
Fargo Oak Gro 2000, 2001, 2010, 2011, 2014, 2015, 2017
Wyndmere/Lidgerwood 2018
Casselton/Central Cass 2005, 2012
Northern Cass 2016
Kindred 2002, 2003, 2021
Lisbon 2008
Milnor 2004, 2013
Hankinson 2007
North Sargent 2009

SO Since we are talking about winning the region in Region 1. This is the champs since 2000.... So the last 21 years 10 different schools have been to state..... Yes it is only 3 schools that get to state every year.

Great point about Richland, very small school and they had a great group of kids come through. After their back to back regional titles what was their record this year? 1 and 16 and their average game score for the year was 39.4 to 70.7.

You prove the point that there are haves and have nots in class B. Kindred won the region this season, they will compete for a title next season. Do you think the year after that they will go 1 and 16 and lose by an average of 31 points per game?

You are correct... they will not go 1 and 16 and they will be in the mix every year towards the top of the region and will not have a 1 and 16 year.. either will Central Cass or Oak Grove... they will always be in the mix. Same thing with Thompson and HCV as well. They have the parents and the culture to produce kids in each grade. The parents and kids all know unless they put in a ton of work they have no chance of playing... and even if they do put in the work... odds of them playing are still not very good.
Richland has size and speed but they don't have the kids that have put in the work like they did in the class of 2019 or 2020

Or you could take off your Kindred blinders and admit that it might have something to do with their enrollment numbers? Just a thought

No blinders here... I agree but enrollment has something to do with it, Money has something to do with it but the parents have way more to do with it than the other two.
By the Way... again I am with you in supporting a 3 class system but you will still have school that go almost every year even if you change the system...

[ndlionsfan]

I'm with you that 3 class is the way to go. I don't watch much class A basketball, but would it be crazy to think that some of the big B's and the privates would compete in class A?

I think most of the big B schools and some of the private schools would compete with the lower end teams on a fairly consistent basis. Thompson beat Grand Forks Central and Fargo Oak Grove beat Valley City.

However, it is very difficult to make state in A if your team is not in Bismarck/Mandan/Minot, or Fargo/West Fargo/Grand Forks.

I agree with your statements. I will then offer up this question to everyone:

Why as a state are we ok with the big B's and privates dominating smaller, public schools but not ok with moving them up a division where they might make the state tournament once every fifteen years?

I am not exactly ok with it, I just do not want to see the quality of play in Class A go down.

Right now, for the most part, every game I go to features a player on each team who can play some type of college basketball. That would change.

How are the current big B and private schools any different from VC, TM, DL, WC, etc.? The college level talent is basically the same.

[defensewinsgames]

Stating it is because of a good program and parents they are always competitive is an over simplification. They might have a good program but they also have more kids to choose from. The argument you're making is essentially some people getting 15 lottery tickets while others get 60 is fair because the people who got 60 lottery tickets have a good culture so they deserved more. Start doing math: if the top 10% of school A (who has 15 kids in a class) work really hard and have parents who push them/do what it takes and the top 10% of school B (who has 55 kids in a class) work really hard and have parents who push them/do what it takes; school A has 1.5 kids who have a chance to be good while school B has 5.5. Now that is just in a single class so go through your high school and grades 9-12 in school A there will be 6 kids with a chance to be good and school 6 will have 22 with a chance to be good. Which team has a better chance of success over the long term? That isn't a culture issue or a lack of commitment or coaching or parents buy-in or program building. That is simple math.

[classB4ever]

Stating it is because of a good program and parents they are always competitive is an over simplification. They might have a good program but they also have more kids to choose from. The argument you're making is essentially some people getting 15 lottery tickets while others get 60 is fair because the people who got 60 lottery tickets have a good culture so they deserved more. Start doing math: if the top 10% of school A (who has 15 kids in a class) work really hard and have parents who push them/do what it takes and the top 10% of school B (who has 55 kids in a class) work really hard and have parents who push them/do what it takes; school A has 1.5 kids who have a chance to be good while school B has 5.5. Now that is just in a single class so go through your high school and grades 9-12 in school A there will be 6 kids with a chance to be good and school 6 will have 22 with a chance to be good. Which team has a better chance of success over the long term? That isn't a culture issue or a lack of commitment or coaching or parents buy-in or program building. That is simple math.

Great post. Would also include genetics. You often hear names of kids coming through successful systems who are offspring or relatives from successful athletes from the past.

[balla45]

I'm with you that 3 class is the way to go. I don't watch much class A basketball, but would it be crazy to think that some of the big B's and the privates would compete in class A?

I think most of the big B schools and some of the private schools would compete with the lower end teams on a fairly consistent basis. Thompson beat Grand Forks Central and Fargo Oak Grove beat Valley City.

However, it is very difficult to make state in A if your team is not in Bismarck/Mandan/Minot, or Fargo/West Fargo/Grand Forks.

I agree with your statements. I will then offer up this question to everyone:

Why as a state are we ok with the big B's and privates dominating smaller, public schools but not ok with moving them up a division where they might make the state tournament once every fifteen years?

I am not exactly ok with it, I just do not want to see the quality of play in Class A go down.

Right now, for the most part, every game I go to features a player on each team who can play some type of college basketball. That would change.

How are the current big B and private schools any different from VC, TM, DL, WC, etc.? The college level talent is basically the same.

TM has 2/3 college levels kids on their team. VC has 1. DL and WC are not teams that I would go watch. I wish WC was still in Class B. I legitimately feel bad for those kids.

[UNDSiouxfan]

With 3 classes, I'm absolutely convinced that the level of play and competition would increase across the board.

AA Class -- Large class A schools consistently playing each other. No more games against the small class A schools such as Devils Lake, Watford City, Valley City, Wahpeton, etc. Almost every game at this proposed upper class level would be similar to a state tourney game. Now, if one of these small A teams wants to schedule some AA's and they agree to do so, then fine! 1 in every 40 years a Jeff Boschee comes around and VC might want to play the big boys, so reward them with an adapted schedule if need be.

A Class -- Then, your Privates and your large class B's enter with a middle class with the small A's. The level of play in this class would be amazing, and instead of playing against a school with 60 enrollment, your big B's would be playing the small A's. No easy games in the schedule and everyone gets better, man what a concept!

Class B -- Back to the 70's & 80's glory years. Larger co-ops start to go away. A more even playing field for all. Small B Teams begin the season by saying "We have a chance," rather than saying "The best we can possibly finish on a good year is 3rd or 4th." Again, if some of these small B's want to schedule some of their former rivals and if they both agree, then by all means go for it! Keeping some of these former rivals in place might eliminate some travel concerns and it would be great for basketball.

I'm a former class A guy from 30 years ago, but I've recognized that the big class A schools have just gotten too big for the smaller class A teams to compete. And, the larger class B's (especially bedroom communities & privates) have benefited from this by gaining additional players. Creating their own class with those other small A's would be similar to the old North Star Conference. That former conference had some of the best competition ever seen in ND sports.

All 3 proposed classes would be better, simply put. Again, it's time for the NDHSAA to wake up from a 30 year nap.

[sportsnut5]

Statement on genetics.

This is so true, you look at many Class A players that are excelling, they have parents who were once representing great Class B programs in the past. The smaller communities no longer provide the job opportunities needed so many of these names from the past now have kids in Class A or larger Class B communities.

[Flip]

No blinders here... I agree but enrollment has something to do with it, Money has something to do with it but the parents have way more to do with it than the other two.
By the Way... again I am with you in supporting a 3 class system but you will still have school that go almost every year even if you change the system...

Money and supportive parents are highly correlated FWIW.

[maddog1971]

The only thing that matters is when the big school makes it to state or have a winning record. If they get their butt kicked every year then that is fine. It only matters when a big school wins. The only thing we need to worry about is getting schools that have 75 kids in the whole school to state.

[The Schwab]

The only thing that matters is when the big school makes it to state or have a winning record. If they get their butt kicked every year then that is fine. It only matters when a big school wins. The only thing we need to worry about is getting schools that have 75 kids in the whole school to state.

What big school gets their butt kicked every year?

[defensewinsgames]

What big school gets their butt kicked every year?

There isn't one. No idea what was being referenced here but nothing based in fact.

[Aces]

Class B -- Back to the 70's & 80's glory years. Larger co-ops start to go away. A more even playing field for all. Small B Teams begin the season by saying "We have a chance," rather than saying "The best we can possibly finish on a good year is 3rd or 4th." Again, if some of these small B's want to schedule some of their former rivals and if they both agree, then by all means go for it! Keeping some of these former rivals in place might eliminate some travel concerns and it would be great for basketball.

I'm all for a three-class system, but man, thinking larger co-ops will just *poof* disappear is wishful thinking. Someone mentioned it further down the line, but small towns are not growing in ND and towns still want to win. I'm not saying to run away from the three-class plan as a result, but the viewpoint needs to be realistic, a majority of towns are not sacrificing their co-ops if it doesn't affect their class. And co-ops that have been around for more than 15 years aren't going away. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't share your optimism.

[maddog1971]

Stating it is because of a good program and parents they are always competitive is an over simplification. They might have a good program but they also have more kids to choose from. The argument you're making is essentially some people getting 15 lottery tickets while others get 60 is fair because the people who got 60 lottery tickets have a good culture so they deserved more. Start doing math: if the top 10% of school A (who has 15 kids in a class) work really hard and have parents who push them/do what it takes and the top 10% of school B (who has 55 kids in a class) work really hard and have parents who push them/do what it takes; school A has 1.5 kids who have a chance to be good while school B has 5.5. Now that is just in a single class so go through your high school and grades 9-12 in school A there will be 6 kids with a chance to be good and school 6 will have 22 with a chance to be good. Which team has a better chance of success over the long term? That isn't a culture issue or a lack of commitment or coaching or parents buy-in or program building. That is simple math.

So just because you have more kids you have means you win more..... WOW. thank goodness hard work and dedication to your sport has nothing to do with it. I will stop getting up at 5:30 each morning to drive my kids 40 minutes to lift weights.
We will disagree...

[maddog1971]

With 3 classes, I'm absolutely convinced that the level of play and competition would increase across the board.

AA Class -- Large class A schools consistently playing each other. No more games against the small class A schools such as Devils Lake, Watford City, Valley City, Wahpeton, etc. Almost every game at this proposed upper class level would be similar to a state tourney game. Now, if one of these small A teams wants to schedule some AA's and they agree to do so, then fine! 1 in every 40 years a Jeff Boschee comes around and VC might want to play the big boys, so reward them with an adapted schedule if need be.

A Class -- Then, your Privates and your large class B's enter with a middle class with the small A's. The level of play in this class would be amazing, and instead of playing against a school with 60 enrollment, your big B's would be playing the small A's. No easy games in the schedule and everyone gets better, man what a concept!

Class B -- Back to the 70's & 80's glory years. Larger co-ops start to go away. A more even playing field for all. Small B Teams begin the season by saying "We have a chance," rather than saying "The best we can possibly finish on a good year is 3rd or 4th." Again, if some of these small B's want to schedule some of their former rivals and if they both agree, then by all means go for it! Keeping some of these former rivals in place might eliminate some travel concerns and it would be great for basketball.

I'm a former class A guy from 30 years ago, but I've recognized that the big class A schools have just gotten too big for the smaller class A teams to compete. And, the larger class B's (especially bedroom communities & privates) have benefited from this by gaining additional players. Creating their own class with those other small A's would be similar to the old North Star Conference. That former conference had some of the best competition ever seen in ND sports.

All 3 proposed classes would be better, simply put. Again, it's time for the NDHSAA to wake up from a 30 year nap.

I WOULD COMPLETELY SUPPORT THIS!!!!!!

[winner-within]

With 3 classes, I'm absolutely convinced that the level of play and competition would increase across the board.

AA Class -- Large class A schools consistently playing each other. No more games against the small class A schools such as Devils Lake, Watford City, Valley City, Wahpeton, etc. Almost every game at this proposed upper class level would be similar to a state tourney game. Now, if one of these small A teams wants to schedule some AA's and they agree to do so, then fine! 1 in every 40 years a Jeff Boschee comes around and VC might want to play the big boys, so reward them with an adapted schedule if need be.

A Class -- Then, your Privates and your large class B's enter with a middle class with the small A's. The level of play in this class would be amazing, and instead of playing against a school with 60 enrollment, your big B's would be playing the small A's. No easy games in the schedule and everyone gets better, man what a concept!

Class B -- Back to the 70's & 80's glory years. Larger co-ops start to go away. A more even playing field for all. Small B Teams begin the season by saying "We have a chance," rather than saying "The best we can possibly finish on a good year is 3rd or 4th." Again, if some of these small B's want to schedule some of their former rivals and if they both agree, then by all means go for it! Keeping some of these former rivals in place might eliminate some travel concerns and it would be great for basketball.

I'm a former class A guy from 30 years ago, but I've recognized that the big class A schools have just gotten too big for the smaller class A teams to compete. And, the larger class B's (especially bedroom communities & privates) have benefited from this by gaining additional players. Creating their own class with those other small A's would be similar to the old North Star Conference. That former conference had some of the best competition ever seen in ND sports.

All 3 proposed classes would be better, simply put. Again, it's time for the NDHSAA to wake up from a 30 year nap.

I like it also, only one thing....not one co-op would "go away" but instead maybe some needed Co-ops and/or consolidating would take place and still be in the Class B parameters...

[BasketballMind]

Stating it is because of a good program and parents they are always competitive is an over simplification. They might have a good program but they also have more kids to choose from. The argument you're making is essentially some people getting 15 lottery tickets while others get 60 is fair because the people who got 60 lottery tickets have a good culture so they deserved more. Start doing math: if the top 10% of school A (who has 15 kids in a class) work really hard and have parents who push them/do what it takes and the top 10% of school B (who has 55 kids in a class) work really hard and have parents who push them/do what it takes; school A has 1.5 kids who have a chance to be good while school B has 5.5. Now that is just in a single class so go through your high school and grades 9-12 in school A there will be 6 kids with a chance to be good and school 6 will have 22 with a chance to be good. Which team has a better chance of success over the long term? That isn't a culture issue or a lack of commitment or coaching or parents buy-in or program building. That is simple math.

So just because you have more kids you have means you win more..... WOW. thank goodness hard work and dedication to your sport has nothing to do with it. I will stop getting up at 5:30 each morning to drive my kids 40 minutes to lift weights.
We will disagree...

How are you not understanding what he is saying? Nobody took shots at you or said what you are doing isn't admirable. It's 5th grade math.

[defensewinsgames]

He isn't understanding because he doesn't want to understand. Logic and reason stand in the way of what is convenient for his argument so he ignores them. It is what it is. I am done trying to explain to people who don't understand math that more kids is an advantage - like he said we will disagree.

I look forward to the time where an army of 6 people defeats an army of 10,000 because they worked harder and deserved it more. I can't possibly see how having 9,994 more men would be an advantage so it should work out fine.

[maddog1971]

He isn't understanding because he doesn't want to understand. Logic and reason stand in the way of what is convenient for his argument so he ignores them. It is what it is. I am done trying to explain to people who don't understand math that more kids is an advantage - like he said we will disagree.

I look forward to the time where an army of 6 people defeats an army of 10,000 because they worked harder and deserved it more. I can't possibly see how having 9,994 more men would be an advantage so it should work out fine.

I do understand what you are saying... and Yes... how many times do I say I agree that numbers help but it is not the main factor IMO. that is where we disagree. Numbers I think is 25%, Location/Money is 25% and I think Parents are 50% (Genetics and drive to push their kids)
I think the number do show that Private schools do not belong in the B... I believe they need someone to play so I think the top 18 B's in the State need to be in a class with the Privates. I also think that no matter what you will have programs that will live at the top of the B and C classes.... Linton will dominate the C class. JUST MY OPINION.

[Flip]

Numbers I think is 25%, Location/Money is 25% and I think Parents are 50% (Genetics and drive to push their kids)

Those three things are not independent of each other.

[defensewinsgames]

^^^^^^^^^^This. You can't separate variables like a lab experiment in the real world.

[maddog1971]

Well I think the problem has been solved. Apparently how close you live to Fargo is if you have talented Basketball players and Teams. SO parents stop playing basketball with your kids in the driveway.... Stop taking them to camps... Just move them to Fargo... Let them live here a few years until the magic Fargo Basketball dust settles on them and then move any place within 50 miles of Fargo and you will have a winning program.

Well everybody on this basketball board wants to talk about is class b is unfair and the only reason my team is not in the state tournament is because someone lives to close to Fargo... Well until next year and hopefully some new blood gets on this board. Off to Baseball.....

[The Schwab]

Well I think the problem has been solved. Apparently how close you live to Fargo is if you have talented Basketball players and Teams. SO parents stop playing basketball with your kids in the driveway.... Stop taking them to camps... Just move them to Fargo... Let them live here a few years until the magic Fargo Basketball dust settles on them and then move any place within 50 miles of Fargo and you will have a winning program.

Well everybody on this basketball board wants to talk about is class b is unfair and the only reason my team is not in the state tournament is because someone lives to close to Fargo... Well until next year and hopefully some new blood gets on this board. Off to Baseball.....

My gosh, this is one of the more whiny posts I've read on here in a while. No one is saying that the Kindred kids didn't deserve to win the state tournament or that they don't work hard. You focus a lot on thinking that parents deserve awards, one of the weirdest angles I've seen used on this board.

Whether you want to accept it or not, kids who go to large schools close to a metro area have unique and distinct advantages. You claim that private school kids have all of these advantages and I agree with you, but large B public schools have the same advantages.

Here's a little food for thought for you:

Current population of Kindred ND is roughly 864 (according to google search)
Current population of Hettinger ND is roughly 1065 (according to google search) I used them because their co-op has been brought up as being an advantage.

Kindred has 810 kids enrolled in their school k-12
Hettinger has 261 kids enrolled in their school k-12

Something wrong with this picture?

[WalkingStick]

Well I think the problem has been solved. Apparently how close you live to Fargo is if you have talented Basketball players and Teams. SO parents stop playing basketball with your kids in the driveway.... Stop taking them to camps... Just move them to Fargo... Let them live here a few years until the magic Fargo Basketball dust settles on them and then move any place within 50 miles of Fargo and you will have a winning program.

Well everybody on this basketball board wants to talk about is class b is unfair and the only reason my team is not in the state tournament is because someone lives to close to Fargo... Well until next year and hopefully some new blood gets on this board. Off to Baseball.....

My gosh, this is one of the more whiny posts I've read on here in a while. No one is saying that the Kindred kids didn't deserve to win the state tournament or that they don't work hard. You focus a lot on thinking that parents deserve awards, one of the weirdest angles I've seen used on this board.

Whether you want to accept it or not, kids who go to large schools close to a metro area have unique and distinct advantages. You claim that private school kids have all of these advantages and I agree with you, but large B public schools have the same advantages.

Here's a little food for thought for you:

Current population of Kindred ND is roughly 864 (according to google search)
Current population of Hettinger ND is roughly 1065 (according to google search) I used them because their co-op has been brought up as being an advantage.

Kindred has 810 kids enrolled in their school k-12
Hettinger has 261 kids enrolled in their school k-12

Something wrong with this picture?

Kindred has towns nearby as well (Oxbow, Wild Rice, Hickson, Leonard, Horace, Colfax-area...and many farming families in between)...it's more than just Kindred's population

[The Schwab]

You're making my point, Hettinger has nearby towns in their district as well (Reeder, Haynes, Bucyrus). Just an example of a district benefiting from being close to a metro area.

[WalkingStick]

You're making my point, Hettinger has nearby towns in their district as well (Reeder, Haynes, Bucyrus). Just an example of a district benefiting from being close to a metro area.

Size of nearby towns was my point but I wasn’t disagreeing with you one bit in your point.