Class B's Identity Problem

[The Schwab]

Well talked to Powers Lake people quite a bit. quite a few of them for hours. Most did not see any problem with the way it is... well they don't like the privates... but like I told them... they have to play someone so I told them I supported a 3 class system..... I did not get to much support for it.

Powers Lake is not in one of the regions I mentioned. Of course they will be in favor of leaving it how it is, there isn't a dominant school in their region. I would be willing to make a bet that if they played in the region to the south of them they wouldn't have went to state the last two times they made it out of region 8 and they would be in favor of the 3 class system.

[defensewinsgames]

Well talked to Powers Lake people quite a bit. quite a few of them for hours. Most did not see any problem with the way it is... well they don't like the privates... but like I told them... they have to play someone so I told them I supported a 3 class system..... I did not get to much support for it.

Imagine that...the team from the region where the only teams with winning records this year were them, White Shield, Trenton, Lewis and Clark, and Bowbells likes their region and the current system! Who would have thought one of the teams in the region that doesn't have dominate large schools or privates would like it? That is almost like what everyone who wants a three class system has been saying would improve the experience for small schools.......

Also just to point out that team lost the first game by 38 to Grafton (a large school).

***Warning - this post contains sarcasm***

[Mandan]

I had a guy from Mott tell me that the reason people send their kids to private is for them to have a better education, more attention and tend to be more involved in their kids lives.... I never looked at that before. I was always with other B people saying it was because they recruit.

This is absolutely true. Take a school like Dickinson Trinity. Typically 99% of the students are Catholic, and most went to Catholic grade school. Many of their parents probably went to Catholic school all their years too. Everything mentioned plus the religious connection drives people to send their kids to that kind of school. Many times when I see a player's name the last name either has a strong Dickinson Catholic connection that goes back a hundred plus years or I can connect them to former students.

[Howie]

i bet that sometimes there are kids that can't afford the tuition to go to trinity and they find an "athletic scholarship" for them. or how about when a boy changes to home school after football because of being ineligible but trinity wants boy to play basketball for them still? i bet that happens a lot in small schools to

[B-oldtimer]

I agree with you Schwab and second your not finding people from these schools like in the past going to the state tournament especially if your under 50 years of age. People my age still go normally to watch or they watch it on tv but generation under me not as much and the generation under them they are not attending unless there involved. This is why i am concerned and to be frank i have son in this age group he tells me he's not that interested and reason is from when he was in school he stated many times small school had zero chance of advancing to state especially on boy side. I look back and look at smallest schools in his time in school were lucky to reach regionals. We still play in districts here and i know that several of the schools in this region are now looking at least 20 years advancing to regional or even winning a game in the regional. I don't know but show me times when small school advanced to state tournament on the above regions in the state that was under 90 kids in school. I am thinking it may be Richland but i bet number of schools would be less than 10% that have gone to state in last 20 years even though i believe schools under 100 account for more than 50% of the schools in class b.

[maddog1971]

Richland is a great point. They had a group of parents and students that said they were going to work off their butt and go to state. That group of kids went out and earned it. They went to every travel ball tournament they could, hit the weights and lived in the gym.... They were the best team in Region 1 for 3 years.
Richland 2006, 2019, 2020
Fargo Oak Gro 2000, 2001, 2010, 2011, 2014, 2015, 2017
Wyndmere/Lidgerwood 2018
Casselton/Central Cass 2005, 2012
Northern Cass 2016
Kindred 2002, 2003, 2021
Lisbon 2008
Milnor 2004, 2013
Hankinson 2007
North Sargent 2009

SO Since we are talking about winning the region in Region 1. This is the champs since 2000.... So the last 21 years 10 different schools have been to state..... Yes it is only 3 schools that get to state every year.

[BelfieldBantams]

I took a look at Region 7 during that same time span and Trinity went 12 times and Beulah 6 times.

I know Oak Grove gets a lot of attention in Region 1 but as is shown that's fairly well spread out in their region.

[The Schwab]

Richland is a great point. They had a group of parents and students that said they were going to work off their butt and go to state. That group of kids went out and earned it. They went to every travel ball tournament they could, hit the weights and lived in the gym.... They were the best team in Region 1 for 3 years.
Richland 2006, 2019, 2020
Fargo Oak Gro 2000, 2001, 2010, 2011, 2014, 2015, 2017
Wyndmere/Lidgerwood 2018
Casselton/Central Cass 2005, 2012
Northern Cass 2016
Kindred 2002, 2003, 2021
Lisbon 2008
Milnor 2004, 2013
Hankinson 2007
North Sargent 2009

SO Since we are talking about winning the region in Region 1. This is the champs since 2000.... So the last 21 years 10 different schools have been to state..... Yes it is only 3 schools that get to state every year.

Great point about Richland, very small school and they had a great group of kids come through. After their back to back regional titles what was their record this year? 1 and 16 and their average game score for the year was 39.4 to 70.7.

You prove the point that there are haves and have nots in class B. Kindred won the region this season, they will compete for a title next season. Do you think the year after that they will go 1 and 16 and lose by an average of 31 points per game?

[defensewinsgames]

I took a look at Region 7 during that same time span and Trinity went 12 times and Beulah 6 times.

I know Oak Grove gets a lot of attention in Region 1 but as is shown that's fairly well spread out in their region.

The fact that multiple teams go doesn't mean "it is fairly well spread out." Region 1 and Region 2 both have stark divides between the top level (bigger/private schools) and bottom level schools. Let's look at region 1 because it was used as an example. Oak Grove, Central Cass, Kindred won 12 of the 21 titles and they are a private school and two of the larger class b schools. Northern Cass and Lisbon aren't small class b schools either! You might see parity or fair competition because multiple schools won that region but what I see is Richland, Wyndmere, Milnor, Hankinson, and North Sargent had one really good class in 21 years (notice Richland is the only one who had two in a row out of that group). Yes even under the current system small class b schools get one extraordinary class and can compete but like Schwab said Kindred/Oak Grove/Central Cass have a down year and go .500 and play in the regional. FCT, Hankinson, Maple Valley, Richland, Wyndmere have a down year and they don't win more than 3 games and finish dead last in the region. The biggest issue for many with the current system is that the smallest schools wait 15 years for one class so they can compete while the top schools feast on them by 30+ points a game while they are waiting.

[leroybla]

I think it should be noted that private schools with exceptional coaching attract better athletes from many districts. Exceptional coaches in public districts are still limited to their district.

[Sportsrube]

I think it should be noted that private schools with exceptional coaching attract better athletes from many districts. Exceptional coaches in public districts are still limited to their district.

Agreed. To me it wouldn't be that hard for the NDHSAA to pass a rule/bylaw that simply says "any school without defined district boundaries will participate at the highest level".

[balla45]

I think it should be noted that private schools with exceptional coaching attract better athletes from many districts. Exceptional coaches in public districts are still limited to their district.

Agreed. To me it wouldn't be that hard for the NDHSAA to pass a rule/bylaw that simply says "any school without defined district boundaries will participate at the highest level".

I do not think the Class A schools would like this idea and I imagine there would be pushback there as well.

I would love to see 3 classes.

[The Schwab]

I think it should be noted that private schools with exceptional coaching attract better athletes from many districts. Exceptional coaches in public districts are still limited to their district.

Agreed. To me it wouldn't be that hard for the NDHSAA to pass a rule/bylaw that simply says "any school without defined district boundaries will participate at the highest level".

I do not think the Class A schools would like this idea and I imagine there would be pushback there as well.

I would love to see 3 classes.

I would assume there would be a lot of push back from the private schools and the class A schools. I know there are a lot of states that automatically bump schools without defined borders up a classification. However, if the only schools that would be against it would be Class A's and privates the vote would be about 90-30 in favor of it.

[balla45]

I think it should be noted that private schools with exceptional coaching attract better athletes from many districts. Exceptional coaches in public districts are still limited to their district.

Agreed. To me it wouldn't be that hard for the NDHSAA to pass a rule/bylaw that simply says "any school without defined district boundaries will participate at the highest level".

I do not think the Class A schools would like this idea and I imagine there would be pushback there as well.

I would love to see 3 classes.

I would assume there would be a lot of push back from the private schools and the class A schools. I know there are a lot of states that automatically bump schools without defined borders up a classification. However, if the only schools that would be against it would be Class A's and privates the vote would be about 90-30 in favor of it.

I could see you being correct about the votes.

I just find it challenging for a program like Watford City Boys Basketball. How are you ever going to become competitive if you lose every single game at every single age level in your high school? That will not lead to players wanting to play and will likely kill participation.

I know their girls team found success but that is with a lot of girls who played travel and grassroots basketball for about a decade with 2 signed NSIC players.

I think 3 class is the way to go.

[The Schwab]

I'm with you that 3 class is the way to go. I don't watch much class A basketball, but would it be crazy to think that some of the big B's and the privates would compete in class A?

[yellowjacket]

I'm with you that 3 class is the way to go. I don't watch much class A basketball, but would it be crazy to think that some of the big B's and the privates would compete in class A?

No, most couldn’t compete with the bigger A schools when for example Grafton was class A, thus the creation of the North Star conference for the smaller A schools.

I was wondering if anyone had any idea how big enrollment wise Minot Ryan and Dickinson Trinity were at their peaks when they were both class A?

[Flip]

I would assume there would be a lot of push back from the private schools and the class A schools. I know there are a lot of states that automatically bump schools without defined borders up a classification. However, if the only schools that would be against it would be Class A's and privates the vote would be about 90-30 in favor of it.

What states?

[classB4ever]

I would assume there would be a lot of push back from the private schools and the class A schools. I know there are a lot of states that automatically bump schools without defined borders up a classification. However, if the only schools that would be against it would be Class A's and privates the vote would be about 90-30 in favor of it.

What states?

Is posted in same topic on another thread if really interested. Serious question, would you ever believe that a mercy rule (running clock) would happen in a ND state tourney?

[Flip]

Is posted in same topic on another thread if really interested. Serious question, would you ever believe that a mercy rule (running clock) would happen in a ND state tourney?

Absolutely, especially girls.
I remember one year Ryan girls were playing Kidder County in the first round. Ryan's average margin of victory was greater than KC's average PPG.

[balla45]

I'm with you that 3 class is the way to go. I don't watch much class A basketball, but would it be crazy to think that some of the big B's and the privates would compete in class A?

I think most of the big B schools and some of the private schools would compete with the lower end teams on a fairly consistent basis. Thompson beat Grand Forks Central and Fargo Oak Grove beat Valley City.

However, it is very difficult to make state in A if your team is not in Bismarck/Mandan/Minot, or Fargo/West Fargo/Grand Forks.

[The Schwab]

I'm with you that 3 class is the way to go. I don't watch much class A basketball, but would it be crazy to think that some of the big B's and the privates would compete in class A?

I think most of the big B schools and some of the private schools would compete with the lower end teams on a fairly consistent basis. Thompson beat Grand Forks Central and Fargo Oak Grove beat Valley City.

However, it is very difficult to make state in A if your team is not in Bismarck/Mandan/Minot, or Fargo/West Fargo/Grand Forks.

I agree with your statements. I will then offer up this question to everyone:

Why as a state are we ok with the big B's and privates dominating smaller, public schools but not ok with moving them up a division where they might make the state tournament once every fifteen years?

[justplayalready]

I'm with you that 3 class is the way to go. I don't watch much class A basketball, but would it be crazy to think that some of the big B's and the privates would compete in class A?

I think most of the big B schools and some of the private schools would compete with the lower end teams on a fairly consistent basis. Thompson beat Grand Forks Central and Fargo Oak Grove beat Valley City.

However, it is very difficult to make state in A if your team is not in Bismarck/Mandan/Minot, or Fargo/West Fargo/Grand Forks.

Agree that the Big B's would have enough kids where your varsity 15 would be a combination of jr's and sr's, maybe 1 or 2 talented soph's...JV is all soph's and C all freshmen...you wait your turn to get your varsity jersey...

A ball is really an upperclassmen's game on the boys side...size, speed, strength

[maddog1971]

Richland is a great point. They had a group of parents and students that said they were going to work off their butt and go to state. That group of kids went out and earned it. They went to every travel ball tournament they could, hit the weights and lived in the gym.... They were the best team in Region 1 for 3 years.
Richland 2006, 2019, 2020
Fargo Oak Gro 2000, 2001, 2010, 2011, 2014, 2015, 2017
Wyndmere/Lidgerwood 2018
Casselton/Central Cass 2005, 2012
Northern Cass 2016
Kindred 2002, 2003, 2021
Lisbon 2008
Milnor 2004, 2013
Hankinson 2007
North Sargent 2009

SO Since we are talking about winning the region in Region 1. This is the champs since 2000.... So the last 21 years 10 different schools have been to state..... Yes it is only 3 schools that get to state every year.

Great point about Richland, very small school and they had a great group of kids come through. After their back to back regional titles what was their record this year? 1 and 16 and their average game score for the year was 39.4 to 70.7.

You prove the point that there are haves and have nots in class B. Kindred won the region this season, they will compete for a title next season. Do you think the year after that they will go 1 and 16 and lose by an average of 31 points per game?

You are correct... they will not go 1 and 16 and they will be in the mix every year towards the top of the region and will not have a 1 and 16 year.. either will Central Cass or Oak Grove... they will always be in the mix. Same thing with Thompson and HCV as well. They have the parents and the culture to produce kids in each grade. The parents and kids all know unless they put in a ton of work they have no chance of playing... and even if they do put in the work... odds of them playing are still not very good.
Richland has size and speed but they don't have the kids that have put in the work like they did in the class of 2019 or 2020

[The Schwab]

Richland is a great point. They had a group of parents and students that said they were going to work off their butt and go to state. That group of kids went out and earned it. They went to every travel ball tournament they could, hit the weights and lived in the gym.... They were the best team in Region 1 for 3 years.
Richland 2006, 2019, 2020
Fargo Oak Gro 2000, 2001, 2010, 2011, 2014, 2015, 2017
Wyndmere/Lidgerwood 2018
Casselton/Central Cass 2005, 2012
Northern Cass 2016
Kindred 2002, 2003, 2021
Lisbon 2008
Milnor 2004, 2013
Hankinson 2007
North Sargent 2009

SO Since we are talking about winning the region in Region 1. This is the champs since 2000.... So the last 21 years 10 different schools have been to state..... Yes it is only 3 schools that get to state every year.

Great point about Richland, very small school and they had a great group of kids come through. After their back to back regional titles what was their record this year? 1 and 16 and their average game score for the year was 39.4 to 70.7.

You prove the point that there are haves and have nots in class B. Kindred won the region this season, they will compete for a title next season. Do you think the year after that they will go 1 and 16 and lose by an average of 31 points per game?

You are correct... they will not go 1 and 16 and they will be in the mix every year towards the top of the region and will not have a 1 and 16 year.. either will Central Cass or Oak Grove... they will always be in the mix. Same thing with Thompson and HCV as well. They have the parents and the culture to produce kids in each grade. The parents and kids all know unless they put in a ton of work they have no chance of playing... and even if they do put in the work... odds of them playing are still not very good.
Richland has size and speed but they don't have the kids that have put in the work like they did in the class of 2019 or 2020

Or you could take off your Kindred blinders and admit that it might have something to do with their enrollment numbers? Just a thought

[balla45]

I'm with you that 3 class is the way to go. I don't watch much class A basketball, but would it be crazy to think that some of the big B's and the privates would compete in class A?

I think most of the big B schools and some of the private schools would compete with the lower end teams on a fairly consistent basis. Thompson beat Grand Forks Central and Fargo Oak Grove beat Valley City.

However, it is very difficult to make state in A if your team is not in Bismarck/Mandan/Minot, or Fargo/West Fargo/Grand Forks.

I agree with your statements. I will then offer up this question to everyone:

Why as a state are we ok with the big B's and privates dominating smaller, public schools but not ok with moving them up a division where they might make the state tournament once every fifteen years?

I am not exactly ok with it, I just do not want to see the quality of play in Class A go down.

Right now, for the most part, every game I go to features a player on each team who can play some type of college basketball. That would change.