Class B's Identity Problem

[The Schwab]

And I did not call it an advantage. Also, I drive bus. I know the grind.

Some of the best, toughest, and hardest working athletes that I coached were kids who had 30 mile one way bus trips and commutes. I do not believe this to be a coincidence, and I am paying them a complement here.

None of this is falling on deaf ears.

Do you really, truly believe we can and should quantify socioeconomic status and bus miles into the classification system? I do not.

We do for football...

[heimer]

I love how people automatically make judgements of others when they are poor. Yep, you don't have money for kids so you must drink and smoke it all away, because no one is just naturally poor.

It's a factor, deal with it. I live in Thompson. I see the shower signs in the curb and gutter district. That isn't Thompson money. That's Grand Forks money.
How many Grand Forks businesses kicked in to the baseball field project, the restaurant fundraiser nights, etc. The latest convenience store didn't get built with Thompson money.

To say that Thompson's situation is on par with these other schools is just denial. Yes, there has been investment. They have made top-shelf decisions with they coaching hires. They have great kids and great parents. They also have advantages there is no way a FS/HP could ever have.

[maddog1971]

I will and do support a 3 class system. Simply because I want to see more competitive games. It stinks to have half your games decided in the first 8 minutes. But social/ Economic standard is just way to socialist thinking for me. We live in a country and a world that nothing is completely fair. I don't think everyone should receive a 50,000 car and a cell phone in their hand or 20000 home.... it needs to be earned and you need to go out and earn it. It does not work out for everyone and that is OK. Most people are completely happy living paycheck to paycheck and enjoying life. That is OK.

[heimer]

Do you think the NCAA handles classification the right way?

If you do, you support economics in classification.

If you don't, looking forward to your answer.

[Bisonguy06]

Do you uphold the NCAA as the model institution for anything?

[maddog1971]

Most of the best players in the world do not come from background of money.... It comes from a background of working their butt off to get ahead.
The NCAA Is a complete mess by the way.

[The Schwab]

We don't have to follow the NCAA, just have to already use the socio-economic multiplier we already use in football.

[UNDSiouxfan]

From the NDHSAA website, just in case anyone wants to know enrollment numbers for this year's state participants:

1. Grafton - 251
2. FWM -247
3. Kindred - 211
4. Rugby - 180
5. EKM - 141
6. DT - 127
7. Shiloh - 123
8. Powers Lake - 58

I will be rooting for the Ranchers, without a doubt.

And, my belief is that 5 of these 8 should be in a Middle Division. (Grafton, FWM, Kindred, & 2 privates.)

[ndlionsfan]

From the NDHSAA website, just in case anyone wants to know enrollment numbers for this year's state participants:

1. Grafton - 251
2. FWM -247
3. Kindred - 211
4. Rugby - 180
5. EKM - 141
6. DT - 127
7. Shiloh - 123
8. Powers Lake - 58

I will be rooting for the Ranchers, without a doubt.

And, my belief is that 5 of these 8 should be in a Middle Division. (Grafton, FWM, Kindred, & 2 privates.)

DPI is slightly different...

1. FWM - 275
2. Grafton - 260
3. Kindred - 232
4. Rugby - 179
5. EKM - 149
6. Powers Lake - 63

Of course it doesn't have the two private schools. I would say everyone but EKM and PL would be in the middle class as Rugby will top 200 next year.

[B Historian]

I know I have brought this up before on this board, but I view the 20-year period starting in 1974 as the golden age of Class B basketball. 1974 was the first year the tournament was held in the Bismarck Civic Center and over those next 20 years there was only one appearance by a private school in the state tournament. There was a sold out Civic Center and when the tournament went to the MSU Dome in 1986, there were over 11,000 fans there on championship night.

The problem is that period of time set an impossibly high standard for the what the "B" should look like to many people. Over the last 25 years the private schools and bigger schools have tended to dominate on an increasing basis but what many fail to realize or remember is that prior to the mid-70's Class B had many of those same issues. People are searching for this utopia where eight small towns fill the Civic Center like we saw in the 70's and 80's but that's a tough formula to replicate and legislate.

That said, I do believe we are to the point of needing three classes, not because I believe that we can necessarily make the B tournament great again, but because it's the right thing to do from a competitive equity standpoint. I didn't feel that way about three classes 3-4 years ago, but changed my tune when seeing how the privates and larger schools have created a de facto third class by traveling the state to play each other on an increasing basis. The excuse I heard from a couple of "Big B" AD's a few years ago about travel hardships for the middle class no longer holds water when they are all doing it now anyway.

The "Class B bedroom community" phenomenon has also really crept up as well in the last decade further tilting the playing field, especially in the eastern half of the state. It's only a matter of time before Nedrose and/or South Prairie becomes a powerhouse in basketball as well.

Personally, I think the best shot of a third class happening is when and if Central Cass' enrollment gets large enough to bump them to Class A. Casselton is a politically well connected community with some people with deep pockets and they will not be content getting knocked around in the EDC.

[maddog1971]

I do have a problem with Class B and letting the privates play. There should not be half the privates each year in the state tournament. I do think you can look at the numbers and year after year the Privates are in the State Tournament. BUT where else do they Play?

But you can not change a whole system based on a couple big schools making it in the state tournament each year from different parts of the state. FWM has been in quite a bit but other than that who that is not a private? Kindred has been in 6 times ever..... and the last one was 18 years ago.
Powers Lake as been a couple times in the last 3 years.... Do they have to move up because it is unfair?
Nothing they do can make everyone feel happy or make it fair....
I do support a 3 class system because I want more competition but making schools with 150 kids or 250 kids the bad guys... I do not like that.

[The Schwab]

I do have a problem with Class B and letting the privates play. There should not be half the privates each year in the state tournament. I do think you can look at the numbers and year after year the Privates are in the State Tournament. BUT where else do they Play?

But you can not change a whole system based on a couple big schools making it in the state tournament each year from different parts of the state. FWM has been in quite a bit but other than that who that is not a private? Kindred has been in 6 times ever..... and the last one was 18 years ago.
Powers Lake as been a couple times in the last 3 years.... Do they have to move up because it is unfair?
Nothing they do can make everyone feel happy or make it fair....
I do support a 3 class system because I want more competition but making schools with 150 kids or 250 kids the bad guys... I do not like that.

So basically you have no problem with a school that has 50 kids in a class being class B, but you think private schools with 25 kids in a class have an advantage over those schools and need to be in the middle class? Talk about a self-serving take on the situation.

I'd go out on a limb and say if you let me choose 3 schools from each region (1, 2, 4, 5, 6 and 7) for the next 10 years 90-95 percent of my choices would end up at the state tournament. If that's not a broken system, I don't know what is.

[maddog1971]

I do have a problem with Class B and letting the privates play. There should not be half the privates each year in the state tournament. I do think you can look at the numbers and year after year the Privates are in the State Tournament. BUT where else do they Play?

But you can not change a whole system based on a couple big schools making it in the state tournament each year from different parts of the state. FWM has been in quite a bit but other than that who that is not a private? Kindred has been in 6 times ever..... and the last one was 18 years ago.
Powers Lake as been a couple times in the last 3 years.... Do they have to move up because it is unfair?
Nothing they do can make everyone feel happy or make it fair....
I do support a 3 class system because I want more competition but making schools with 150 kids or 250 kids the bad guys... I do not like that.

So basically you have no problem with a school that has 50 kids in a class being class B, but you think private schools with 25 kids in a class have an advantage over those schools and need to be in the middle class? Talk about a self-serving take on the situation.

I'd go out on a limb and say if you let me choose 3 schools from each region (1, 2, 4, 5, 6 and 7) for the next 10 years 90-95 percent of my choices would end up at the state tournament. If that's not a broken system, I don't know what is.

I would vote for the 3 class system. Because I do believe it would a solution to the privates. And yes they do have an advantage because they are pulling select kids from Huge market of kids. Yes number do matter (basketball not as much as football) Big schools have been around for a very long time.
I had this conversation with a customer so mine in Texas.... he died laughing when I told him the numbers we are picking apart....

[The Schwab]

Well good for Texas. Go look at their enrollment numbers and let me know if anything jumps out at you...actually I'll help you out. They have 6 classes, coincidently in their classes Kindred would be a 3A school and Powers Lake would be a 1A school. In fact, their 3A class for public schools looks to go from 230-510.

Edit to add:

I'm sure that Kindred has never once had students enroll from Fargo/West Fargo

[Sportsrube]

This pertains to one of Heimer's points about co-ops.
One of our coaches posted on social media this morning about an open gym in town A tonight. Within 30 minutes a number of parents of younger kids had posted "Can anyone give my kid a ride from town B to town A tonight?" This involves kids/parents paying for gas, finding a ride for younger kids and travel time for kids from town B which they could use to do other things like school work, chores at home, etc.....

[BasketballMind]

Honest question because I typically avoid these discussions like the plague. Feels like any thread can eventually find it's way to being this discussion again.

If a 3-class system was implemented. How many teams would be in each class? What's the cutoff in terms of enrollment from C to B to A? The state of ND isn't the way it was in 1974 either. Young people aren't moving to towns of 300 and starting their families and staying there for decades. What do those 3 separate state tournaments look like? Do you move up and down as often as teams do in football? I'm honestly asking for how it would work out logistically. Feels like this conversation always starts and ends the same way. Those that are connected to the small schools advocate for a 3-class system, those that are connected to the bigger Class B schools say no, we have the same argument, and everyone waits until one of "those schools" win something and we start over again.

[maddog1971]

Well good for Texas. Go look at their enrollment numbers and let me know if anything jumps out at you...actually I'll help you out. They have 6 classes, coincidently in their classes Kindred would be a 3A school and Powers Lake would be a 1A school. In fact, their 3A class for public schools looks to go from 230-510.

Edit to add:

I'm sure that Kindred has never once had students enroll from Fargo/West Fargo

Why are you always taking shots at Kindred? Because they have a boys team that went to state for the first time in 18 years.... Kindred is always winning...
I am sure there are students that drive out from Fargo or West Fargo to go to school... that 30 minute drive makes sense.... and yes... there are kids that are in Kindred school district that go to Shanley, Oak Grove, Davies, Fargo North, West Fargo and Sheyenne
Nothing about FWM and they have 275 kids and by the way they always seems like they have one new player each year that moves in. Kinda Like Shilho....

BY THE WAY I AGREE WITH YOU on the 3 class system... but just maybe not based on rich or poor....
I am class b guy, I have been my whole life and I will die a fan of class B

[The Schwab]

Not taking shots at Kindred, using them for comparison because I have a feeling that's the school you're associated with, if you're not I apologize. Kindred is 84-30 since the 2016-17 season, not like they came out of no where to win the region. I firmly believe that Four-Winds Minnewaukan should be in the middle class as well.

I have an honest question for you: do you not believe that Kindred students (being so close to a major metro area) have an advantage over students from lets say EKM, Powers Lake, Enderlin, North Border, Linton (schools in the state tournament/top teams in their regions this season) etc...?

[hoophoophoop]

Do you know that Kinnerd raises over 100,00 in one night for their athleitic program, compete with that, probably could combine 75% of the Class B schools wouldn't come close to 100,000

[BasketballMind]

Do you know that Kinnerd raises over 100,00 in one night for their athleitic program, compete with that, probably could combine 75% of the Class B schools wouldn't come close to 100,000

I am not sure what you are getting at with that comment. Good for Kindred that they can do that. They offer 19 different activities for their students through the school. All of that money is not going directly into the boys and girls basketball programs.

[maddog1971]

Not taking shots at Kindred, using them for comparison because I have a feeling that's the school you're associated with, if you're not I apologize. Kindred is 84-30 since the 2016-17 season, not like they came out of no where to win the region. I firmly believe that Four-Winds Minnewaukan should be in the middle class as well.

I have an honest question for you: do you not believe that Kindred students (being so close to a major metro area) have an advantage over students from lets say EKM, Powers Lake, Enderlin, North Border, Linton (schools in the state tournament/top teams in their regions this season) etc...?

Honest Answer... Yes and no. We have access to things like the Basketball Acad, Stanford Health, Dynasty within a 35 min drive. SO you still have to find people to get rides and you still have to be able to afford these places to send your kids. So basically if you have money and a mom that does not work... you have a training advantage. My kids do not because of those two reasons.
Also in the last 15 years Kindred parents have decided that they want to keep up with others in the region as far so facilities SO the booster club has exploded and funded many things to upgrade our facilities. It has been quite a bit of leg work and time to raise money but the time has been put in and now our gyms are full every night of the schools year with travel ball teams from 3 grade to 8th grade until 9 or 10.
Our summer baseball program has grown from 30 kids to know it is over 200 with the practice fields busy all day and late into the night. But again Parents are doing all of this for their kids. Nothing to do with funding from schools.

[Bison-Vikes #1]

Not sure that I agree with direction of this. Quite frankly think it's awesome what the parents have done in Kindred and any other town, big or small, to promote all sports or any extra curricular activity. As mentioned earlier, it can be done any where in any small or big school with the right parent/community leg work.

Athletes can become better on their own or as a team in a gym, barn loft, outdoor slab or anywhere else. You don't need a state of the art weight room, gym, batting cage to achieve becoming stronger, faster, a better shooter, better hitter. It's whether they have the drive to get better or not. Sometimes that has to be taught, sometimes it's self initiative. Making excuses for that I think misses the point.

What they can't control is having 10 seniors, 10 juniors and 10 sophomores to practice with/against to fill the rosters. Believe that is where the problem lies.

Here's an idea to think about:

AA - 2 regions. 9 east/9 west. 18 largest schools by enrollment. Same tournament format as now. 1.5 multiplier if your school is physically located in any of our largest cities school districts (which ones and how many?).

A - 4 regions (or maybe even 2 like AA). 1A - SE, 2A - NE, 3A - SW, 4A - NW. 24 next largest enrollments using multiplier. 6 in each region. 1.5 multiplier if your school is located in a AA school district (maybe some better criteria is needed for this). 1.25 multiplier if your school district is adjacent to AA school district. Super Regionals and top 2 go to state tourney from each region.

B (85 schools) - 4 regions. All the rest of the schools. Districts and Regionals. Send 2 from each region to state tournament.

[BasketballMind]

Not sure that I agree with direction of this. Quite frankly think it's awesome what the parents have done in Kindred and any other town, big or small, to promote all sports or any extra curricular activity. As mentioned earlier, it can be done any where in any small or big school with the right parent/community leg work.

Athletes can become better on their own or as a team in a gym, barn loft, outdoor slab or anywhere else. You don't need a state of the art weight room, gym, batting cage to achieve becoming stronger, faster, a better shooter, better hitter. It's whether they have the drive to get better or not. Sometimes that has to be taught, sometimes it's self initiative. Making excuses for that I think misses the point.

What they can't control is having 10 seniors, 10 juniors and 10 sophomores to practice with/against to fill the rosters. I believe that is where the problem lies.

Here's an idea to think about:

AA - 2 regions. 9 east/9 west. 18 largest schools by enrollment. Same tournament format as now. 1.5 multiplier if your school is physically located in any of our largest cities school districts (which ones and how many?).

A - 4 regions. 1A - SE, 2A - NE, 3A - SW, 4A - NW. 24 next largest enrollments (using multiplier) in each region. 1.5 multiplier if your school is located in a AA school district (maybe some better criteria is needed for this). 1.25 multiplier if your school district is adjacent to AA school district. Super Regionals and top 2 go to state tourney from each region.

B (85 schools) - 4 regions. All the rest of the schools. Districts and Regionals. Send 2 from each region to state tournament.

In that proposal, what's the cutoff in size from AA to A to B?

[Bison-Vikes #1]

No enrollment cutoffs. AA - 9 largest schools in each defined region. A - 6 largest schools in each defined region. B - the rest. Numbers evaluated every 2 years.

Think it's simple and addresses the main problems. The proposed A schools are already traveling to play teams like themselves throughout the state. Scheduling is left up to coaches and ADs for each school and can cross-schedule as they see fit. Coaches/ADs know the strength of their teams and other teams in their area and will schedule accordingly. Travel should not be an issue. Multipliers are legal and used in 25+ other states (including ours) and growing.

[BasketballMind]

No enrollment cutoffs. AA - 9 largest schools in each defined region. A - 6 largest schools in each defined region. B - the rest. Numbers evaluated every 2 years.

It seems thought out and I like that you brought an actual proposal. My only issue with it is that we're basically turning the "Big B" schools into one conference with two divisions. Takes away from the atmosphere of the actual State B tournament in my opinion. I'll take a look at Region 1 and 2 right now as they'd make up most of the NE division.

HCV, Thompson, MPCG, Grafton, Central Cass, Kindred, Northern Cass, Oak Grove, Hatton-Northwood, Park River are all out of the old R1 and R2. Cavalier is right on the border of that.

Now it's Enderlin laughing their way to the State tournament as the top 3 teams in their region are gone. North Border demolishes everyone in their path as 5/8 teams from the R2 tournament are now gone. The remaining "B" schools are still going to need to become better programs because most of their best competition is gone. It's either going to be either average teams "winning state" or a team like Enderlin with a few studs from the same family will destroy everyone. I don't think I'm going to a region tournament that has 7 teams in it with one of them being worth my time to watch. Going to the state "B" wouldn't be a big deal the way it is now and the attendance would plummet.

You'd also start to see the random "Open Enroll" after a few years from the newer "A" schools to "B" schools. Or you'd have a stud from a "B" school on a bad team move to an "A" school that was near him/her/