SoDak 16

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SoDak 16

Postby B Historian » Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:55 pm

For those unfamiliar, SD started the SoDak 16 concept for regional play a few years ago. The way it works is that the eight regions in each of the two small classes are set up just like they are currently in ND. The difference is, once SD gets down to two regional finalists from each region, they then seed the remaining 16 teams using a relatively simple power points formula and those teams play for the eight spots in the state tournament. So 1 would play 16, 2 vs 15 etc. These state qualifier games are at neutral sites around the state and often times they will have two on the same night at the same venue.

The advantages to this is that you will more consistently get the best 8 teams in the state tournament. Twice in the last four years in ND Class B we have had the top two ranked teams in the same region and under this type of format both teams could advance to state.

Of course the downside is that there would likely be a handful of teams in ND Class B that would make it to state even more often than they do now. There is also the issue where areas of the state that have traditionally been weaker (like Region Eight) may go years without representation.

A SD HS coach I know told me that many people including himself were very skeptical when this plan was introduced but he has grown to love it. I'm curious if people think this is something ND should consider doing.
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Re: SoDak 16

Postby The Schwab » Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:58 pm

Very familiar with the sweet 16, it's definitely the way to go. I see a lot of SD basketball throughout the season and they do a lot of things I like (power points, no charge circle, don't have to play everyone in your region etc...)
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Re: SoDak 16

Postby Flip » Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:20 pm

how do they determine where to play the games?
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Re: SoDak 16

Postby The Schwab » Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:36 pm

Try to do an equal distance neutral site between the two schools
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Re: SoDak 16

Postby Sportsrube » Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:45 pm

I would also like to see this happen in ND, but we can't even get rid of District Tournaments that play 3 nights to eliminate 1 or 2 teams (and it is usually the 2 that everyone knows is going to get eliminated) so if we can't get 8 Super Regions going I seriously doubt we will ever get a Sweet 16 situation in ND. We used to use a power point system back in the early 1990's when there were 3 Districts to a Region - the top 2 teams from each District and then the 2 3rd place teams with the most power points were also allowed in. They also used the power points to seed the Regional Tournaments and it worked pretty well.
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Re: SoDak 16

Postby B Historian » Thu Feb 18, 2021 4:39 pm

The Schwab wrote:Very familiar with the sweet 16, it's definitely the way to go. I see a lot of SD basketball throughout the season and they do a lot of things I like (power points, no charge circle, don't have to play everyone in your region etc...)


I think it would work really well in a 3-class system in ND, especially for the middle class.

The problem right now in our 2-class system is that it would make it even harder for many schools to have a shot at making the State B.
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Re: SoDak 16

Postby The Schwab » Thu Feb 18, 2021 5:02 pm

B Historian wrote:
The Schwab wrote:Very familiar with the sweet 16, it's definitely the way to go. I see a lot of SD basketball throughout the season and they do a lot of things I like (power points, no charge circle, don't have to play everyone in your region etc...)


I think it would work really well in a 3-class system in ND, especially for the middle class.

The problem right now in our 2-class system is that it would make it even harder for many schools to have a shot at making the State B.


Maybe that's what we need to implement it to get some of these regions without a big school or a private school to vote for the 3 class system? I would assume after a few years of the Sweet 16 where a couple of those regions don't have a rep in the state tournament would get the 3 class passed
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Re: SoDak 16

Postby maddog1971 » Thu Feb 18, 2021 5:36 pm

I like the plan and I would vote for it... but Can you image the backlash you would get when the East side of the state has 6 out of the 8 teams.... That will not fly. They might be a region that brings 3 or 4 teams... image the backlash from that.
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Re: SoDak 16

Postby Flip » Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:56 pm

B Historian wrote:
The problem right now in our 2-class system is that it would make it even harder for many schools to have a shot at making the State B.

yep. You would see fewer small schools in the state tournament.
I'd definitely like to see 3 classes before this. Or 3 classes and this.
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Re: SoDak 16

Postby B Historian » Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:58 am

maddog1971 wrote:I like the plan and I would vote for it... but Can you image the backlash you would get when the East side of the state has 6 out of the 8 teams.... That will not fly. They might be a region that brings 3 or 4 teams... image the backlash from that.


Each region could have at most two teams, but it is entirely possible for one half of the state to be overrepresented. I don't think this would have a chance of passing under the current system either, but it would be great under a 3-class structure.
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Re: SoDak 16

Postby vikingman » Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:16 pm

I don't see why you would need 16 if you had 3 classes. All the big Bs would be by themselves, and the smaller schools to the west would be competitive with the smaller eastern schools.
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Re: SoDak 16

Postby B-oldtimer » Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:11 pm

I think it would work but first you need to get to three classes because i still think it would take years before we would get third class in basketball and volleyball. If that happened i believe number of schools would just have hard time fielding a team because number of the small schools kids would just not care if they played that sport or not. I have been watching now for number years do realize there at least number of smaller schools that haven't even played in regional semifinal in over 10 years and some now approaching 20 years in basketball and Volleyball. This is what has happened in past 30 years we have a group of elite larger schools that continually are ones that play at regional and state level and group smaller schools that just put a team together each year but no real expectations are expected because they know that they will never be able to compete against these larger schools. Once this attitude happens we have failed system and fixing may take years or generation even if we address the issues . The funny thing here in North Dakota when it comes to football we have plan every two years to address this competitive issues for the various size schools The basketball and volleyball we have not addressed this issue in more than 40 years and even now its just about impossible to have discussion about this with activities association. Under the present conditions we have i don't care that number of schools like in region 1 and 2 don't make the state tournament because to truly have state tournament you need whole state represented regionally or its not state tournament. My feelings on those regions and schools from larger cities they are in wrong classification to begin with they should be with large class A schools they would then have as much a chance to win as small schools in class b do against them. I remember quote in Grand Forks Herald when Grafton one of the larger class b schools were class A there numbers were down so bad they couldn't get kids to compete against these larger schools because they didn't think they could win. The funny thing here is these same schools forget its no different with small schools now competing against there larger class b schools. This is why i have lost intensity of interest in class b sports because this issue had not been addressed . I also think this has happened state wide for large number of people but nothing has been done about it and now i don't think it will ever be done because nobody wants to take risk financially for the needs of smaller because they do not out weigh needs of the large and system it supports.
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Re: SoDak 16

Postby senditin » Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:29 pm

So its ok for Shiloh to come out of that region pretty much every year and a region with 2 real good teams to leave 1 at home or a region who's rep gets beat every year in the 1st round at state. If 1 region isn't getting represented than those schools need to get busy and work on their hoops or get left out.
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Re: SoDak 16

Postby NDNative » Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:23 am

B-oldtimer wrote:... I remember quote in Grand Forks Herald when Grafton one of the larger class b schools were class A there numbers were down so bad they couldn't get kids to compete against these larger schools because they didn't think they could win. The funny thing here is these same schools forget its no different with small schools now competing against there larger class b schools. This is why i have lost intensity of interest in class b sports because this issue had not been addressed . I also think this has happened state wide for large number of people but nothing has been done about it and now i don't think it will ever be done because nobody wants to take risk financially for the needs of smaller because they do not out weigh needs of the large and system it supports.


I remember when Grafton was Class A. The male enrollment gap between them and other Class A schools was far greater than what the gap between them (Grafton) and other Class B schools currently is . Also, unlike the majority of Class B schools, Grafton has a hockey program that draws a number of their athletes from basketball. Prior to the mid or late 80s, Grafton had enough male athletes to support and be fairly successful in both sports. By the early 90s however, their enrollment dropped significantly with most of their athletes being in the school's hockey program while the basketball program was in the tank and having to be rebuilt. Their basketball program was so bad it wouldn't have mattered what class they were in. Now they're having success in basketball while their hockey program struggles.
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Re: SoDak 16

Postby woodchuck10 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:42 am

Let's make it a NoDak 64 and rank the 4 qualifiers from the 16 districts. Similar to the NCAA , 3 weekends (2 games, Friday and Saturday), 8 sites for first two rounds. 4 sites for the sweet 16 and elite 8, and final four in Bismarck or Minot.
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Re: SoDak 16

Postby hoophoophoop » Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:53 pm

I love all the ideas, it would be awesome
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Re: SoDak 16

Postby defensewinsgames » Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:19 am

NDNative wrote:
I remember when Grafton was Class A. The male enrollment gap between them and other Class A schools was far greater than what the gap between them (Grafton) and other Class B schools currently is . Also, unlike the majority of Class B schools, Grafton has a hockey program that draws a number of their athletes from basketball. Prior to the mid or late 80s, Grafton had enough male athletes to support and be fairly successful in both sports. By the early 90s however, their enrollment dropped significantly with most of their athletes being in the school's hockey program while the basketball program was in the tank and having to be rebuilt. Their basketball program was so bad it wouldn't have mattered what class they were in. Now they're having success in basketball while their hockey program struggles.


Imagine being Bottineau, Park River, or MayPort.....Grafton has a lot more kids than those schools who also split athletes do. Grafton has enough kids to be competitive when some go to hockey. I just laugh to myself when I hear people talk about Grafton, HCV, Central Cass, etc. have "down years." Small schools have a down year it means winning 3 games or less. These schools have a "down year" and they get a home play in and go 500 while people complain about competitive balance. Funny how that works isn't it.
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Re: SoDak 16

Postby Sportsrube » Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:38 am

I have been in favor of a 3 class system for some time now, but I wonder how many people would forget about the 3 class system if the NDHSAA passed a by-law that said any school without a defined district boundary must compete at the highest level. Personally I would like to see both a 3 class system and the no defined district boundary by-law, but I just wonder how many actually want a 3 class system and how many just want the privates out of Class B.
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Re: SoDak 16

Postby The Schwab » Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:49 am

Sportsrube wrote:I have been in favor of a 3 class system for some time now, but I wonder how many people would forget about the 3 class system if the NDHSAA passed a by-law that said any school without a defined district boundary must compete at the highest level. Personally I would like to see both a 3 class system and the no defined district boundary by-law, but I just wonder how many actually want a 3 class system and how many just want the privates out of Class B.


I am in favor of the 3 class system for more reasons than just the schools without defined borders. They definitely play a part in it, but not the only reason.
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Re: SoDak 16

Postby defensewinsgames » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:06 am

I agree with Schwab. Privates aren't the only problem. In fact, as the years go by they have become less of the focus of my concern. At this point my biggest desire is to figure out how to save some of these athletic programs that seem to be dying. I am confident it is impossible to build programs if you go multiple seasons without a JR High or JV season which in turn scares off more people from participating. It kills me to see how many schools can't field a JV team or play 4 quarters anymore. It hurts not only them but also the teams that do have JV teams but don't get to play more than 10 games a year because of so many cancellations. Not being competitive isn't the only cause of the decline in participation but it is a part of it and one that we can address relatively swiftly if we do it before it is too late. It is hard to talk kids out and convince them to try it if they know they will play two games all year that aren't 30+ point losses; and might not play at all if they aren't in the varsity rotation because there is no JV. At this point I don't see how people make the argument that going away from the 2 class system would hurt kids or basketball in ND. I know it is all about dollars and cents ultimately but don't you think people would be more apt to show up and spend money at games they knew were going to be competitive? IMO big schools are holding small schools hostage and it's the kids that pay the price.
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Re: SoDak 16

Postby ND Basketball Fan » Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:54 pm

Why is there so much animosity towards the Private Schools? They are in bigger cities but the cost to attend limits the number of kids who will/would attend these schools. OG is 10k a year. I hear all the time about Privates recruiting - simply not true. The bigger concern is schools like Four Winds (great program and coach) but who knows how old those kids are. With open enrollment, you see kids jumping to schools to play with kids that they play AAU ball with over the summer. Happens all the time, especially in other states like MN. I'm not apposed to the 3 class system, but do get frustrated with the talk about Privates and how the smaller schools don't have a chance to compete. At the end of the day, you do need #'s but more importantly you need to have a strong program that starts developing these kids at a young age. Just my opinion.
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Re: SoDak 16

Postby Flip » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:01 pm

ND Basketball Fan wrote:Why is there so much animosity towards the Private Schools? They are in bigger cities but the cost to attend limits the number of kids who will/would attend these schools. OG is 10k a year. I hear all the time about Privates recruiting - simply not true. The bigger concern is schools like Four Winds (great program and coach) but who knows how old those kids are. With open enrollment, you see kids jumping to schools to play with kids that they play AAU ball with over the summer. Happens all the time, especially in other states like MN. I'm not apposed to the 3 class system, but do get frustrated with the talk about Privates and how the smaller schools don't have a chance to compete. At the end of the day, you do need #'s but more importantly you need to have a strong program that starts developing these kids at a young age. Just my opinion.

Quite the ignorant post.
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Re: SoDak 16

Postby ND Basketball Fan » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:50 pm

Flip wrote:
ND Basketball Fan wrote:Why is there so much animosity towards the Private Schools? They are in bigger cities but the cost to attend limits the number of kids who will/would attend these schools. OG is 10k a year. I hear all the time about Privates recruiting - simply not true. The bigger concern is schools like Four Winds (great program and coach) but who knows how old those kids are. With open enrollment, you see kids jumping to schools to play with kids that they play AAU ball with over the summer. Happens all the time, especially in other states like MN. I'm not apposed to the 3 class system, but do get frustrated with the talk about Privates and how the smaller schools don't have a chance to compete. At the end of the day, you do need #'s but more importantly you need to have a strong program that starts developing these kids at a young age. Just my opinion.

Quite the ignorant post.


Why exactly is it ignorant?
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Re: SoDak 16

Postby ND Basketball Fan » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:57 pm

ND Basketball Fan wrote:
Flip wrote:
ND Basketball Fan wrote:Why is there so much animosity towards the Private Schools? They are in bigger cities but the cost to attend limits the number of kids who will/would attend these schools. OG is 10k a year. I hear all the time about Privates recruiting - simply not true. The bigger concern is schools like Four Winds (great program and coach) but who knows how old those kids are. With open enrollment, you see kids jumping to schools to play with kids that they play AAU ball with over the summer. Happens all the time, especially in other states like MN. I'm not apposed to the 3 class system, but do get frustrated with the talk about Privates and how the smaller schools don't have a chance to compete. At the end of the day, you do need #'s but more importantly you need to have a strong program that starts developing these kids at a young age. Just my opinion.

Quite the ignorant post.


Why exactly is it ignorant?

10k a year prevents kids from going to a Private School - True
Privates don't recruit athletes - True
FourWinds - Older kids? True - Isn't their big guy 20?
AAU has created kids jumping to other schools to play with friends - True
You need #'s yes but at the end of the day successful programs start at a young age - True

Doesn't seem ignorant to me.
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Re: SoDak 16

Postby hoops23 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:59 pm

ND Basketball Fan wrote:Why is there so much animosity towards the Private Schools? They are in bigger cities but the cost to attend limits the number of kids who will/would attend these schools. OG is 10k a year. I hear all the time about Privates recruiting - simply not true. The bigger concern is schools like Four Winds (great program and coach) but who knows how old those kids are. With open enrollment, you see kids jumping to schools to play with kids that they play AAU ball with over the summer. Happens all the time, especially in other states like MN. I'm not apposed to the 3 class system, but do get frustrated with the talk about Privates and how the smaller schools don't have a chance to compete. At the end of the day, you do need #'s but more importantly you need to have a strong program that starts developing these kids at a young age. Just my opinion.


If you think Four Winds kids are older then any other programs in the state, go ask their school administration, they have nothing to hide. Four Winds has an excellent youth traveling program that gets these kids ready, believe me I've been around the all these boys a long time. That was ignorant of you to say that, that it is a bigger concern and to point out Four Winds specifically.
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