What skills are lacking the most right now?

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What skills are lacking the most right now?

Postby BasketballMind » Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:10 pm

Seems like every era has certain skills that get neglected due to whatever the newest craze is to the game. I would personally say offensive post play has almost disappeared. Most teams are adopting a pace and space, 5-out system that rarely sees a kid plant himself in the low or mid-post and look to score. If anything, they're down there as a screener to open up a 3-point shot.

Ironically it's Four Winds, the team known for years to be a run and gun style team, focuses on getting the ball to their big guy better than just about anyone.

Thoughts? Any other pressing skills that are lacking in your eyes?
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Re: What skills are lacking the most right now?

Postby leroybla » Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:32 pm

I've noticed that passing, especially with the off-hand, needs improvement in both boys and girls basketball.
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Re: What skills are lacking the most right now?

Postby defensewinsgames » Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:11 pm

Strong practical ball-control/handling. Not two-ball behind the back between the legs flash stuff but calm cool power dribbles that get you from point A to point B without losing the ball. I watch press-break or tough man pressure in the 1/2 court and it is crazy how many kids struggle with taking three strong dribbles to clear space and make the open pass but spend all pre-game going between the legs, behind the back, over the river and through the woods to grandma's house. This is going to sound weird because it has turned into so much outside shooting but also shooting. As a whole I'm not sure shooting is great - and I know shooting form as a whole is bad. There is this huge emphasis on shooting threes but I would question how many good "shooters" there are as a whole. Just take a look at the death of the mid-range jumper for proof.
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Re: What skills are lacking the most right now?

Postby Bison-Vikes #1 » Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:02 am

defensewinsgames wrote:This is going to sound weird because it has turned into so much outside shooting but also shooting. As a whole I'm not sure shooting is great - and I know shooting form as a whole is bad. There is this huge emphasis on shooting threes but I would question how many good "shooters" there are as a whole. Just take a look at the death of the mid-range jumper for proof.


Agreed. IMHO, think that too many kids are allowed to start jacking up 3's at too young of age. They are shooting "from the hip" and it creates bad mechanics. Very hard to get rid of that muscle memory as they grow older. Shots start from waist area instead of shoulder area, so trajectory is more out than up and through. This creates a flat shot with bad rotation on the ball. 2 cents.
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Re: What skills are lacking the most right now?

Postby balla45 » Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:05 am

I fully agree with the comment about functional ball handling. I feel a significant amount of players can not take 3 dribbles in a row with their off hand without having to crossover or pick up the ball.


I think the death of the mid range jumper is just trending from the NBA. It is a lot easier to shoot 33% from 3 than shoot 50% from mid range.
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Re: What skills are lacking the most right now?

Postby balla45 » Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:07 am

Bison-Vikes #1 wrote:
defensewinsgames wrote:This is going to sound weird because it has turned into so much outside shooting but also shooting. As a whole I'm not sure shooting is great - and I know shooting form as a whole is bad. There is this huge emphasis on shooting threes but I would question how many good "shooters" there are as a whole. Just take a look at the death of the mid-range jumper for proof.


Agreed. IMHO, think that too many kids are allowed to start jacking up 3's at too young of age. They are shooting "from the hip" and it creates bad mechanics. Very hard to get rid of that muscle memory as they grow older. Shots start from waist area instead of shoulder area, so trajectory is more out than up and through. This creates a flat shot with bad rotation on the ball. 2 cents.


Somewhat agree. A former Miss Basketball and NDSU legend who is one of the most intelligent basketball people I have spoken with gave me a tidbit awhile ago that stuck with me. Teach everything correctly the first time and you do not have to waste time fixing it later. Her kids were completely dominant NDHS players and could shoot and I remember them shooting 3s from a very young age, just with correct mechanics.
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Re: What skills are lacking the most right now?

Postby Bison-Vikes #1 » Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:39 am

balla45 wrote:
Bison-Vikes #1 wrote:
defensewinsgames wrote:This is going to sound weird because it has turned into so much outside shooting but also shooting. As a whole I'm not sure shooting is great - and I know shooting form as a whole is bad. There is this huge emphasis on shooting threes but I would question how many good "shooters" there are as a whole. Just take a look at the death of the mid-range jumper for proof.


Agreed. IMHO, think that too many kids are allowed to start jacking up 3's at too young of age. They are shooting "from the hip" and it creates bad mechanics. Very hard to get rid of that muscle memory as they grow older. Shots start from waist area instead of shoulder area, so trajectory is more out than up and through. This creates a flat shot with bad rotation on the ball. 2 cents.


Somewhat agree. A former Miss Basketball and NDSU legend who is one of the most intelligent basketball people I have spoken with gave me a tidbit awhile ago that stuck with me. Teach everything correctly the first time and you do not have to waste time fixing it later. Her kids were completely dominant NDHS players and could shoot and I remember them shooting 3s from a very young age, just with correct mechanics.


Certainly. But it still takes strength and some have that strength at an earlier age and some don't. Their distance increased as their strength increased while shooting mechanically correct. Point is, that doesn't happen very often because not all parents/coaches can stay on top of it and correct it as they grow.
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Re: What skills are lacking the most right now?

Postby BasketballMind » Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:50 pm

Bison-Vikes #1 wrote:
balla45 wrote:
Bison-Vikes #1 wrote:
defensewinsgames wrote:This is going to sound weird because it has turned into so much outside shooting but also shooting. As a whole I'm not sure shooting is great - and I know shooting form as a whole is bad. There is this huge emphasis on shooting threes but I would question how many good "shooters" there are as a whole. Just take a look at the death of the mid-range jumper for proof.


Agreed. IMHO, think that too many kids are allowed to start jacking up 3's at too young of age. They are shooting "from the hip" and it creates bad mechanics. Very hard to get rid of that muscle memory as they grow older. Shots start from waist area instead of shoulder area, so trajectory is more out than up and through. This creates a flat shot with bad rotation on the ball. 2 cents.


Somewhat agree. A former Miss Basketball and NDSU legend who is one of the most intelligent basketball people I have spoken with gave me a tidbit awhile ago that stuck with me. Teach everything correctly the first time and you do not have to waste time fixing it later. Her kids were completely dominant NDHS players and could shoot and I remember them shooting 3s from a very young age, just with correct mechanics.


Certainly. But it still takes strength and some have that strength at an earlier age and some don't. Their distance increased as their strength increased while shooting mechanically correct. Point is, that doesn't happen very often because not all parents/coaches can stay on top of it and correct it as they grow.


Proper mechanics can be taught as early as 2nd and 3rd grade. I've worked enough camps and seen enough players at that age and you can see that it's possible for players that are 7 and 8 years old to have proper shooting form. The Junior High coaches should be able to see who can shoot the ball properly from distance and just tell the ones that can't, they're not allowed to shoot threes. Another problem is, too many parents send their kid to one week of basketball camp and expect their kids to magically turn into great players. They don't spend time in the driveway or up at the gym with them and leave the kids to figure it out. In small towns in ND, there just aren't that many capable adults around that have the time or desire to work with a young kid on his/her form unless it's their own. Lots of time the kids with parents that aren't "basketball people" have to figure everything out on their own. That's where the NBA style moves come into play. Then if you have a few of the alpha dogs of the class doing it, the others follow suit because that's "cool".

Elementary and Junior High coaches need to be far more focused on shooting mechanics and ballhandling and less on winning and losing. Sadly, we have too many that would rather work on specialty stuff and don't work on the boring stuff on a daily basis. Junior High coaches and shockingly, some elementary coaches that sacrifice fundamental skill work for specialty plays, complex defensive schemes, and other stuff that takes waaaaaay too long for the average JH team to understand and do properly are a big part of the problem.
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Re: What skills are lacking the most right now?

Postby defensewinsgames » Tue Jan 05, 2021 4:07 pm

BasketballMind wrote:Elementary and Junior High coaches need to be far more focused on shooting mechanics and ballhandling and less on winning and losing. Sadly, we have too many that would rather work on specialty stuff and don't work on the boring stuff on a daily basis. Junior High coaches and shockingly, some elementary coaches that sacrifice fundamental skill work for specialty plays, complex defensive schemes, and other stuff that takes waaaaaay too long for the average JH team to understand and do properly are a big part of the problem.


Players, coaches, and parents get tired of doing the "boring" fundamentals. Three move combos, cross-over pull ups, dunks, and this other flash stuff is a lot more fun to work on (especially in the off-season by yourself) than form shooting, weak-hand ball handling, and other things that we know give more bang for your buck in the results category. Some things are done every day because they need to be like brushing your teeth, showering, or eating breakfast - it is about utility and preparation not fun. I have heard a lot of complaints about coaches that include they are doing the same thing too much/every day. Fundamental fatigue is a real problem.
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Re: What skills are lacking the most right now?

Postby Sportsrube » Wed Jan 06, 2021 9:20 am

Unfortunately the village idiots and the majority of the parents only care about winning at all levels more than they care about fundamentals. If a coach doesn't win they aren't around long. A lot of Elementary and JH coaches will let their "stars" dominate the offense in order to win and then wonder why a number of kids quit. Not saying every kid should get equal touches, but when only 2 kids ever touch the ball on offense there is a problem. I have always believed that your practice should be 70% skill development and 30% game preparation. Also, these kids have so much access to NBA and D1 games and they all want to be like their favorite player but they don't realize how much time those players have put in to develop their fundamentals. (A lot of Steph Curry wannbe shooters out there!)
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Re: What skills are lacking the most right now?

Postby defensewinsgames » Wed Jan 06, 2021 11:32 am

Sportsrube wrote:Unfortunately the village idiots and the majority of the parents only care about winning at all levels more than they care about fundamentals. If a coach doesn't win they aren't around long. A lot of Elementary and JH coaches will let their "stars" dominate the offense in order to win and then wonder why a number of kids quit. Not saying every kid should get equal touches, but when only 2 kids ever touch the ball on offense there is a problem. I have always believed that your practice should be 70% skill development and 30% game preparation. Also, these kids have so much access to NBA and D1 games and they all want to be like their favorite player but they don't realize how much time those players have put in to develop their fundamentals. (A lot of Steph Curry wannbe shooters out there!)


Agreed. Part of the problem for coaches though is they can't focus that much on fundamentals because there is absolutely no patience. A new coach takes over and if they aren't winning in 2 or 3 years top "they are a bad coach." If you had the time to focus on fundamentals for 3 to 5 years from top to bottom of a program you would see that translate to wins but too many coaches aren't given that time. The other problem with youth is not only are only a couple players touching the ball but elementary kids are being taught position-based basketball. The 5' 6" to 6' elementary/junior high kid is told they are a post don't leave the lane and don't dribble and they never grow anymore so become a high school guard. The short kids are told you are a guard don't work on a post game and then they stretch out into a high school post. It leaves kids with huge skill/experience deficits for the position they are ultimately going to play. I would love to see every youth program move to not only fundamental focused but also position-less basketball where everyone learns all of the fundamental skills (shuffling, boxing out, shooting, ball handling, post moves, footwork, etc). I don't see how pigeonholing kids into a position helps anyone (coach, program, or player).
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Re: What skills are lacking the most right now?

Postby BasketballMind » Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:52 pm

defensewinsgames wrote:
BasketballMind wrote:Elementary and Junior High coaches need to be far more focused on shooting mechanics and ballhandling and less on winning and losing. Sadly, we have too many that would rather work on specialty stuff and don't work on the boring stuff on a daily basis. Junior High coaches and shockingly, some elementary coaches that sacrifice fundamental skill work for specialty plays, complex defensive schemes, and other stuff that takes waaaaaay too long for the average JH team to understand and do properly are a big part of the problem.


Players, coaches, and parents get tired of doing the "boring" fundamentals. Three move combos, cross-over pull ups, dunks, and this other flash stuff is a lot more fun to work on (especially in the off-season by yourself) than form shooting, weak-hand ball handling, and other things that we know give more bang for your buck in the results category. Some things are done every day because they need to be like brushing your teeth, showering, or eating breakfast - it is about utility and preparation not fun. I have heard a lot of complaints about coaches that include they are doing the same thing too much/every day. Fundamental fatigue is a real problem.


Fundamental fatigue is a great way to phrase it, but it's on you the coach to get them to commit to becoming great at it and forcing them to work on it. There are plenty of ways to make fundamental based drills more exciting, competitive, and game like. They need to be timed, short bursts of one type of dribble, pivot, pass, etc. and then change. 45-60 seconds tops and you could easily get through 4-5 different two and one ball dribbling drills, there are hundreds of drills online, but you as the coach need to emphasize the skill and not the drill.

Don Meyer has a thousand great quotes and one of my favorites is, "Be a skill coach. Not a drill coach." You should still be emphasizing pivots, footwork, and dribbling with your head up in your defensive shell portions of practice, full court stuff, out of bounds plays, etc. Too many coaches get fixated on running their precious plays to the exact specifications, but it doesn't matter because none of their players have gotten a lick better at handling the ball, passing and catching, pivoting properly without traveling, or their basic shooting form. Some kids don't get that figured out until they're 9th/10th graders and they become what you'd call a good shooter. You can't quit on it because it isn't fixed overnight.

Junior High coaching should be about process over outcome. The sad thing is plenty of coaches at the 5th, 6th, and 7th grade level have that flipped. By 8th grade, being a little more focused on the outcome is okay, but it's still a huge opportunity for skill development and basketball IQ development with zero pressure to win or lose.
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Re: What skills are lacking the most right now?

Postby B Historian » Wed Jan 06, 2021 11:25 pm

Some great points in these posts. A few of the biggest issues I see:

- Positioning on rebounds. Very few teams block out well anymore. I'm surprised when I watch some veteran Class B coaches that apparently don't stress rebounding fundamentals. Just hoping that your kids are always going to be longer and more athletic than the other team doesn't seem to be a good strategy.

- No post game- players can't feed the post. Do HS coaches not work on this sort of thing in practice anymore?

- Mid-range game is gone. There is some opportunity for players to get some 15 foot jumpers in the gaps of all of these extended zones we are seeing, but very few players do it anymore.
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Re: What skills are lacking the most right now?

Postby maddog1971 » Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:23 pm

Sportsmanship.....
Arguing with the coach, talking back to other players and talking to officials... Walking around holding up 3 fingers or some other sign after a 3 pointer....
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Re: What skills are lacking the most right now?

Postby Sportsrube » Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:16 pm

maddog1971 wrote:Sportsmanship.....
Arguing with the coach, talking back to other players and talking to officials... Walking around holding up 3 fingers or some other sign after a 3 pointer....


Spot on!
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Re: What skills are lacking the most right now?

Postby Flip » Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:46 pm

I'm curious about skills that are lacking now when were they better?
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Re: What skills are lacking the most right now?

Postby defensewinsgames » Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:52 am

Flip wrote:I'm curious about skills that are lacking now when were they better?


So I may be wrong but...I believe what you are pointing out is that some of these things were never there so they aren't really lacking right now but rather never were there at all. This is an interesting discussion point and I think you may be right on some of the skills but I know there are some like: the sportsmanship, post game, mid-range game, and functional ball handling (over flash) were skills at one point that have now dwindled - perhaps sportsmanship isn't a skill but it has been a significant change in the game.
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Re: What skills are lacking the most right now?

Postby BasketballMind » Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:39 am

Flip wrote:I'm curious about skills that are lacking now when were they better?


Post game was pretty solid from what I remember up until about the 2010s. Unless a team has a 100% traditional post player that doesn’t have the ability to shoot threes, but is very big, we won’t see many go into the post. Let alone a bigger guard posting up a smaller guard.

To me that’s one of the biggest missed opportunities from teams with bigger guards. Mid range has always been hit and miss, but right now we don’t see many players that could do the “Jerry West drill” where your shoot from elbow to elbow and try to get a streak of 10-15 makes in a row.

This problem is on coaches for not emphasizing it during the season, but for the ones that say it until they’re blue in the face, it doesn’t really matter if those players spend all offseason playing tournaments or AAU ball doing the opposite. It’s a 50/50 split to blame and what never fails is the ones that are willing to work on the “boring stuff” on a regular basis are the players that improve every year.

There are kids who don’t get any better after 8th grade in terms of skills. Juniors and Seniors that can’t dribble with their off hand, haven’t figured out to pass the ball with your outside hand to avoid deflections, using the five passing windows on a post feed, etc. Not complicated stuff, but if your youth coaches aren’t teaching that stuff over installing 25 quick hitters/OB plays, a press, a zone defense and all that other stuff they don’t need, it’ll never stop happening.
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Re: What skills are lacking the most right now?

Postby RockNRoll » Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:48 pm

There has been many games with physical post battles at the state b every year. Playing inside out seems to be more successful vs teams that cast too much usually are one and done.
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Re: What skills are lacking the most right now?

Postby Sportsrube » Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:26 pm

I think one of the reasons for a decline in post play is that a number of the smaller schools don't have a someone with the height to be effective against other teams with a legitimate post player (height wise). When you are giving up 5 -6 inches in the post you spread your offense out and try and create penetration opportunities and draw the other team's big away from the basket.
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Re: What skills are lacking the most right now?

Postby BasketballMind » Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:57 pm

Sportsrube wrote:I think one of the reasons for a decline in post play is that a number of the smaller schools don't have a someone with the height to be effective against other teams with a legitimate post player (height wise). When you are giving up 5 -6 inches in the post you spread your offense out and try and create penetration opportunities and draw the other team's big away from the basket.


That’s true. Basic footwork in the post is the same as any footwork on the perimeter. I’d really like to see guards get down there more often.
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Re: What skills are lacking the most right now?

Postby Sportsrube » Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:40 pm

Ellendale upset Edgely-Kulm for the Stutsman County Tournament Championship using an inside-out style of play. Both of these teams have good post players and do a good job of using them. Their bigs also do a very good job of finding shooters when they get doubled in the post.
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Re: What skills are lacking the most right now?

Postby BasketballMind » Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:11 am

Sportsrube wrote:Ellendale upset Edgely-Kulm for the Stutsman County Tournament Championship using an inside-out style of play. Both of these teams have good post players and do a good job of using them. Their bigs also do a very good job of finding shooters when they get doubled in the post.


Ellendale should dominate teams in the post and live in the high-low/short corner game. I’m not an anti Bigs shooting 3s or having ball skills guy, but there needs to be a balance. Want to hear more comments like yours around the state, not just teams that are clearly the tallest.
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Re: What skills are lacking the most right now?

Postby Sportsrube » Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:47 am

BasketballMind wrote:
Sportsrube wrote:Ellendale upset Edgely-Kulm for the Stutsman County Tournament Championship using an inside-out style of play. Both of these teams have good post players and do a good job of using them. Their bigs also do a very good job of finding shooters when they get doubled in the post.


Ellendale should dominate teams in the post and live in the high-low/short corner game. I’m not an anti Bigs shooting 3s or having ball skills guy, but there needs to be a balance. Want to hear more comments like yours around the state, not just teams that are clearly the tallest.



In Region 3 (District 6) Napoleon-Gackle-Streeter has a young Erbele who is a true post player. I believe he is only a Sophomore and is a little short (around 6'2" I think) but he is a true back to the basket post player with solid footwork and some nice moves around the basket. Have not seen NGS play yet this year, but I watched him last year and have heard from a few people about him this year. I think he averaged a double double (pts/rebounds) last season.
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Re: What skills are lacking the most right now?

Postby BasketballMind » Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:20 am

Sportsrube wrote:
BasketballMind wrote:
Sportsrube wrote:Ellendale upset Edgely-Kulm for the Stutsman County Tournament Championship using an inside-out style of play. Both of these teams have good post players and do a good job of using them. Their bigs also do a very good job of finding shooters when they get doubled in the post.


Ellendale should dominate teams in the post and live in the high-low/short corner game. I’m not an anti Bigs shooting 3s or having ball skills guy, but there needs to be a balance. Want to hear more comments like yours around the state, not just teams that are clearly the tallest.



In Region 3 (District 6) Napoleon-Gackle-Streeter has a young Erbele who is a true post player. I believe he is only a Sophomore and is a little short (around 6'2" I think) but he is a true back to the basket post player with solid footwork and some nice moves around the basket. Have not seen NGS play yet this year, but I watched him last year and have heard from a few people about him this year. I think he averaged a double double (pts/rebounds) last season.


I love to hear that kind of thing. Working on your post game is not rocket science. You use the same footwork around the perimeter as you do in the paint. You've just got to dedicate some time during your off-season work to doing it, and it helps if during the season you have some segments of practice dedicated to post 1-on-1. Any kid starting at the Junior High level (some in elementary) can learn the following attacks and counters. These work at the 3-point line and the low-block.

Front Pivot (Step Through) - Don't bother throwing the big "up-and-under" shot fake that most do, execute the pivot and take the shot if the defense isn't ready. If they take it away, counter with a step through quickly.

Inside Pivot (Sweep) - Some call this a "Sikma Pivot" or "Reverse Pivot" but it's all the same. If the shots there, take it. If it isn't you sweep through and go to the basket.

Drop Step (Inside Pivot) - One of the oldest moves in the book. If it gets blocked you can keep swinging your non-pivot foot right into the inside pivot.

You can work on all three of these attacks and counter with a couple chairs on each block, 2-3 players to place the basketballs on the chairs and rebound, and get plenty of reps in very quickly. Gotta have players willing to work on it and coaches or teammates willing to help out. You could do this on your own, but it would be much easier with 2-3 partners.
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