What IF ???

Class B Boys
Forum rules
Please do not post just to complain about players, coaches, teams, officials, fans, or anyone else. Lets all try to demonstrate the spirit of good sportsmanship. Posts may be edited or deleted that do not comply.

What IF ???

Postby Lavar Ball » Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:19 am

What if the NDHSAA decided to go to a sweet 16 format like South Dakota does for their playoff basketball. How i see it happening would be you play your region as a single elimination tourney.(super region format.) But you play it out till the championship game, you dont crown a region champ or have a region championship game. Each region gets 2 qualifiers to the sweet 16 you reseed them 1-16 and the winners advance just like a march madness tourney.
example would be:
Region 1- Wyndmere-Lidgerwood, Oak Grove
Region 2- Hillsboro-Central Valley,Grafton
Region 3-Carrington, Edgeley-Kulm-Montpelier
Region 4- St. John, Langdon/Edmore/Munich
Region 5- Shiloh, Standing Rock
Region 6-Bishop Ryan, Rugby
Region 7- Beulah,Dickinson Trinity
Region 8-Stanley, New Town
so now we would have to reseed these 16 teams 1-16 and play it out all the way.
not that our state tourney wasn't competitive as all games i felt were good games to watch.
but i feel this would give us a even better state tourney and have all 8 teams be the best 8 teams in the state. I am all for this format or everyone plays a super regional and that would be how we get our 8. call me old school but the district tourneys are a joke IMO. you can loose and still make the state tourney, cmon that is not playoff basketball. playoff basketball means you are fighting for another game one slip up and your done. Thoughts ?????

Lavars World
Lavar Ball
Lavar Ball
NDPreps Rookie
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:02 pm

Re: What IF ???

Postby Rivershark » Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:22 pm

Hillsboro still wins it on a last second shot.
Rivershark
NDPreps All-Conference
 
Posts: 257
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:16 pm

Re: What IF ???

Postby The Schwab » Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:01 pm

Hillboro-Central Valley-1
St. John- 2
Minot- 3
Carrington- 4
Fargo- 5
Bismarck- 6
New Town- 7
Stanley- 8
Beulah- 9
Wyndmere-Lidgerwood-10
Grafton-11
Edgley-Kulm-Montpieler-12
Rugby-13
Langdon-Edmore-Munich- 14
Dickinson-15
Standing Rock- 16

would have been the seeding based on KMAV
The Schwab
User avatar
The Schwab
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 3520
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:38 am
Location: The Peace Garden State

Re: What IF ???

Postby B Historian » Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:01 pm

Lavar Ball wrote:What if the NDHSAA decided to go to a sweet 16 format like South Dakota does for their playoff basketball. How i see it happening would be you play your region as a single elimination tourney.(super region format.) But you play it out till the championship game, you dont crown a region champ or have a region championship game. Each region gets 2 qualifiers to the sweet 16 you reseed them 1-16 and the winners advance just like a march madness tourney.
example would be:
Region 1- Wyndmere-Lidgerwood, Oak Grove
Region 2- Hillsboro-Central Valley,Grafton
Region 3-Carrington, Edgeley-Kulm-Montpelier
Region 4- St. John, Langdon/Edmore/Munich
Region 5- Shiloh, Standing Rock
Region 6-Bishop Ryan, Rugby
Region 7- Beulah,Dickinson Trinity
Region 8-Stanley, New Town
so now we would have to reseed these 16 teams 1-16 and play it out all the way.
not that our state tourney wasn't competitive as all games i felt were good games to watch.
but i feel this would give us a even better state tourney and have all 8 teams be the best 8 teams in the state. I am all for this format or everyone plays a super regional and that would be how we get our 8. call me old school but the district tourneys are a joke IMO. you can loose and still make the state tourney, cmon that is not playoff basketball. playoff basketball means you are fighting for another game one slip up and your done. Thoughts ?????

Lavars World


I am not a fan of this tournament structure. I also know a current coach in SD that can't stand it either. The reasons I feel it doesn't work:

-I believe a state tournament at the small school level should represent all areas of the state. Yes, some ND regions have historically tended to be weaker than others, but not outlandishly so. In the SD Class B tournament this year, White River is the only school included from what could be considered the western part of the state. Is that really what we want in ND?

-The logistics of the round of 16 don't work. Since you would have to wait to see who makes it and then determine the match ups, how do you then figure out where to play the games? If we had a final 16 format in ND this year, this would have been my estimate for match ups:

Hillsboro vs Standing Rock
St. John vs Trinity
Oak Grove vs Rugby
Stanley vs E-K-M
Minot Ryan vs Langdon
Carrington vs Beulah
Grafton vs New Town
Wyndmere vs Shiloh Christian

The average distance in those eight match ups 235 miles. How are you going to pick a midway point on short notice to play the games and have it be a tournament atmosphere?

-Schools that are among the top eight in the state will still get eliminated. Example: Carrington and Beulah were both obviously very worthy of playing in the state tournament this year but with the round of 16 match ups I came up with, one would have been eliminated.

-Regional rivalries lose their luster. Would the May-Port vs Hillsboro rivalry have been as intense if both could have made the state tournament in the same season? How about Dickinson Trinity vs Beulah or Four Winds vs North Star or Langdon vs Munich? Part of what has made Class B basketball great over the years is that it's hard to get to the state tournament and you know exactly who you have to beat to get there.

I do absolutely agree with you about the super regionals. I'm also a firm believer that once a team has entered tournament play there should not be any second chances.

Welcome to the board and please continue posting! Even though I disagree with you on this topic, it's still interesting to discuss!
B Historian
NDPreps Starter
 
Posts: 117
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:13 pm

Re: What IF ???

Postby Sportsrube » Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:38 pm

I know a handful of Coaches in SD at the B level and non of them like the current format. Some want to "tweak" it and a couple want to throw it out completely. (To be fair, they are all from the north central part of the state.) I personally enjoy District Tournaments but would not be too upset if everyone went to a Super Region. For conformity's sake I wish all 8 Regions would be the same (either everyone does Districts or everyone does a Super Region).
Sportsrube
NDPreps All-State
 
Posts: 676
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:03 pm

Re: What IF ???

Postby The Schwab » Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:50 pm

I've talked to quite a few coaches from SD, most who were completely against the sweet 16...now after doing it for a year they are in favor of it. People don't like change, period. The sweet 16 idea for North Dakota is awesome and here's my idea for a variation of the plan

Make every team go back to districts. The top two teams from districts play the championship game to determine a winner and then advance to regionals. We have 4 districts to a region so each region is played at a neutral site rotating between the biggest cities in the region (Dickinson, Bismarck) (Minot, Williston) (Grand Forks, Devils Lake) (Fargo, Jamestown). You play the whole regional out and then take the two teams in the championship to state. This idea can work! The reason I don't like how SD does it now, is teams only play for 1 championship (state, unless you count conference tournaments in mid-season).
The Schwab
User avatar
The Schwab
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 3520
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:38 am
Location: The Peace Garden State

Re: What IF ???

Postby Lavar Ball » Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:58 pm

anything to get rid of the second chance!
Lavar Ball
Lavar Ball
NDPreps Rookie
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:02 pm

Re: What IF ???

Postby B Historian » Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:06 pm

The Schwab wrote:I've talked to quite a few coaches from SD, most who were completely against the sweet 16...now after doing it for a year they are in favor of it. People don't like change, period. The sweet 16 idea for North Dakota is awesome and here's my idea for a variation of the plan

Make every team go back to districts. The top two teams from districts play the championship game to determine a winner and then advance to regionals. We have 4 districts to a region so each region is played at a neutral site rotating between the biggest cities in the region (Dickinson, Bismarck) (Minot, Williston) (Grand Forks, Devils Lake) (Fargo, Jamestown). You play the whole regional out and then take the two teams in the championship to state. This idea can work! The reason I don't like how SD does it now, is teams only play for 1 championship (state, unless you count conference tournaments in mid-season).


I see what you are getting at with your idea, but the problem I have with it is a team could conceivably lose two postseason games and still advance to the state tournament. To me this is not the direction we should be going. With as few Class B teams as there currently are, more regions should be going to the super regional structure in my opinion. The district tournaments are unnecessary.
B Historian
NDPreps Starter
 
Posts: 117
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:13 pm

Re: What IF ???

Postby The Schwab » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:42 am

I'd be 100 percent on board with all regions doing the super region format and then sending their top two teams to the "sweet 16".
The Schwab
User avatar
The Schwab
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 3520
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:38 am
Location: The Peace Garden State

Re: What IF ???

Postby d_fense » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:05 am

The Schwab wrote:I'd be 100 percent on board with all regions doing the super region format and then sending their top two teams to the "sweet 16".


I really don't understand why? What is the point?

Some say it will give you the best 8 teams. I don't really think this is the case. I look at it like it will give us some teams that are in the 30-40 range when talking about two teams from each region in the field of 16. That doesn't excite me.

Would you re-seed after the round of 16? If you want to do your best to make sure the "best teams" play for the title, I suppose you better.

I used the KMAV seeding that was used above and ended up with a round of 8 that had HCV vs Beulah, Carring ton vs OG, St. John vs WL, and Minot Ryan vs Grafton. That would have left regions 5 and 8 without a team in the top 8 (In the way I would have thought the round of 16 games would have played out). I would have liked to have seen this version. But, where do you drawn the line? We have some people that seem to only post to complain about private schools. How many privates will make a field of 16 on nearly a yearly basis?

And if you are going to go with more than 1 team from a region, why not more than 2 if a team is clearly really strong? And who will decide? Thompson in this version doesn't make the state tourney. They didn't have a bad loss. Dropping two games to HCV by a total of 4 points, falling to Minot Ryan in overtime in Minot, and falling to Grafton twice including a 1 point game in regionals. And they had wins at Carrington, against D.Trinity, and Four Winds.

Change can be good. But, i'm not sure moving to 16 is an improvement in formats suggested here to this point.
d_fense
NDPreps All-State
 
Posts: 824
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 7:13 am
Location: Small town eastern ND

Re: What IF ???

Postby The Schwab » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:43 am

I'm all for any plan that gives more teams an opportunity. In my perfect world we would play out the district tournaments (every team would play in a district) and we'd play down to the champion. Use a formula that ranks teams (but includes games against SD, MT and MN as well). 16 district winners and 16 next best ranked teams, seed them 1-32. 1 plays 32, 2 plays 31 and so on. Set it up like an NCAA tournament style, play on Friday and Saturdays in Bismarck, Minot, Fargo and G.F. Friday would be the round of 32 games (4 games at each site), Saturday would be the sweet 16 (2 games at each site). Two wins gets you to the State Tournament where we play the traditional tournament
The Schwab
User avatar
The Schwab
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 3520
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:38 am
Location: The Peace Garden State

Re: What IF ???

Postby d_fense » Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:40 pm

The Schwab wrote:I'm all for any plan that gives more teams an opportunity. In my perfect world we would play out the district tournaments (every team would play in a district) and we'd play down to the champion. Use a formula that ranks teams (but includes games against SD, MT and MN as well). 16 district winners and 16 next best ranked teams, seed them 1-32. 1 plays 32, 2 plays 31 and so on. Set it up like an NCAA tournament style, play on Friday and Saturdays in Bismarck, Minot, Fargo and G.F. Friday would be the round of 32 games (4 games at each site), Saturday would be the sweet 16 (2 games at each site). Two wins gets you to the State Tournament where we play the traditional tournament


I like some of what you are saying. But, doesn't everyone have an opportunity to get to state the way it is currently set up? I looked at the top 32 ranked teams in the state this year in both RPI and in Craigs computer ranking on KMAV. I found some surprises. At least they surprised me. I think it is believed by most that the two regions that are typically weakest in the state are regions five and eight. Shiloh tends to do alright if they make it to state, but for the most part region five doesn't fair well. Region eight really seems to struggle. Not that they can't have a very good team come out, but typically their representative doesn't do well. Well according to Craig's Computer these to regions had 11 of the top 32 teams (8 had 7 teams and 5 had 4 teams). The RPI wasn't much different. RPI would have given these regions 10 teams. By contrast, region 2 would have 3 representatives. I think most would agree that region 2 was probably the region with the stiffest competition this year. Yet, they would only get 3. I think the top 4 regions in the state year in and out are 1,2,4, and 7. It does change from year to year a bit. As region 1 was down this year compared to most. According to the computer regions 2,4, and 7 would have a total of 10 teams while region 5 and 8 would have 11 teams.

I think the only way for it to work out would be for each region champ to get in and then have me select the remaining teams to advance. ;)
d_fense
NDPreps All-State
 
Posts: 824
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 7:13 am
Location: Small town eastern ND

Re: What IF ???

Postby The Schwab » Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:06 pm

Going off of the final rankings on kmav.
1. Hillsboro-CV- District 3 Champ
2. St. John- 1st at large
3. Bishop Ryan- District 12 Champ
4. Carrington- District 5 Champ
5. Dunseith- District 8 Champ
6. Oak Grove- District 2 Champ
7. Shiloh- District 9 Champ
8. New Town- District 15 Champ
9. Thompson- 2nd at large
10. Stanley- District 16 Champ
11. Beulah- District 14 Champ
12. Our Reedemers- 3rd at large
13. Wyndmere-Lidgerwood- District 1 Champ
14. Grafton- District 4 Champ
15. Bottineau- 4th at large
16. Four Winds- District 7 Champ
17. Edgeley Kulm Montpielier- 5th at large
18. Rugby- District 11 Champ
19. Powers Lake- 6th at large
20. Langdon- 7th at large
21. Dickinson Trinity- 8th at large
22. Standing Rock-9th at large
23. DLB- 10th at large
24. White Shield- 11th at large
25. North Shore-Plaza- 12th at large
26. Kindred- 13th at large
27. Velva- 14th at large
28. Solen- 15th at large
29. Hettinger-Scranton- District 13 Champ
30. Mandaree- 16th at large
31. Wilton-Wing- District 10 Champ
32. Strasburg-Zeeland- District 6 Champ

Hope I got these right, if the district actually has a district tournament I used that information
The Schwab
User avatar
The Schwab
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 3520
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:38 am
Location: The Peace Garden State

Re: What IF ???

Postby The Schwab » Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:36 pm

These would create some very intriguing match-ups.

It's also tough to gauge some of the region 8 schools because they don't play many out of region games.
The Schwab
User avatar
The Schwab
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 3520
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:38 am
Location: The Peace Garden State

Re: What IF ???

Postby Lavar Ball » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:50 am

i really like that format. i feel yes it will give you the best 8 playing ball at the right time. It also would come down to match ups teams like a New Town match up better vs certain teams than Stanley. This would give some teams more of a shot to get to state and their are chances that you'd get 2-maybe 4 teams from a region.
Lavar Ball
Lavar Ball
NDPreps Rookie
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:02 pm

Re: What IF ???

Postby Lavar Ball » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:07 am

this would be the match ups based on RPI. Some very interesting match ups to get into the state tourney.
i think you then give the highest seed the closest site to play without them playing at a site a first round opponent for state would play. i think you leave the ranking 1-32 as is for whole tourney. Don't reseed for state. Use the Following sites. Bismarck, Fargo, Minot, Grand Forks

1-Hillsboro-Central Valley Vs. 32-Kenmare
16-Four Winds vs 17-Bottineau

8-Shiloh Vs 25- Solen
9-Beulah vs 24-Langdon-Edmore-Munich

4- Carrington vs 29-Turtle Lake
13-Our Redeemers vs 20-kindred

5- Bishop Ryan vs 28- Mandaree
12-Thompson Vs 21-Trinity

6-New Town vs 27- White Shield
11-Stanley Vs 22- Des Lacs-Burlington

3-Dunseith vs 30- Hettinger- Scranton
14-Grafton vs 19- Powers Lake

7-Oak Grove vs 26- North Shore- Plaza
10-Wyndmere-Lidgerwood vs 23- Rugby

15-Standing Rock Vs 18-Edgeley-Kulm-Montpelier
2-st. John vs 31-Velva
Lavar Ball
Lavar Ball
NDPreps Rookie
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:02 pm


Return to Boys

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron