Block/Charge

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Block/Charge

Postby defense1st » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:31 pm

There has been a trend growing basketball that I think we will see addressed soon, especially if it continues at its current pace. I'm interested to hear others' thoughts on this growing trend:

It has almost become a primary defensive strategy to just stand in front of someone, slide underneath an airborne player, and (sometimes, but not often) flop in hopes of drawing a charge. This strategy was extremely prevalent at the state B this year. Kyler McGillis comes to mind as someone who consistently was taken out at the legs after he had already jumped as his defenders attempted to draw a charge. Most of the time it was a no-call, but McGillis would go crashing to the floor in ways that made me surprised he would get back up. The championship was choc full of block/charge situations as well.

I have no problem with the officiating of the block/charge situations in the tournament. I think the officials correctly called them a majority of the time, I just think it happened too often.

This also isn't just an issue in ND basketball. I saw it all over the NCAA first two rounds as well.

I think the increasing prevalence of this "defensive strategy" creates a disjointed game, and causes most players to hesitate to drive because they're concerned about the help defense sliding underneath them. It's dangerous, and it happens much too often.
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Re: Block/Charge

Postby defense1st » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:52 pm

"I hope, one day, it will be people falling everywhere. Total confusion. No effort to play defense, just run in front of people and fall down. That is my vision for the evolution of this game." J. Naismith 1892

This quote from a pro sports analyst sums up my feelings. It should go without saying that this is not actually a quote from Naismith.
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Re: Block/Charge

Postby d_fense » Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:40 pm

defense1st wrote:There has been a trend growing basketball that I think we will see addressed soon, especially if it continues at its current pace. I'm interested to hear others' thoughts on this growing trend:

It has almost become a primary defensive strategy to just stand in front of someone, slide underneath an airborne player, and (sometimes, but not often) flop in hopes of drawing a charge. This strategy was extremely prevalent at the state B this year. Kyler McGillis comes to mind as someone who consistently was taken out at the legs after he had already jumped as his defenders attempted to draw a charge. Most of the time it was a no-call, but McGillis would go crashing to the floor in ways that made me surprised he would get back up. The championship was choc full of block/charge situations as well.

I have no problem with the officiating of the block/charge situations in the tournament. I think the officials correctly called them a majority of the time, I just think it happened too often.

This also isn't just an issue in ND basketball. I saw it all over the NCAA first two rounds as well.

I think the increasing prevalence of this "defensive strategy" creates a disjointed game, and causes most players to hesitate to drive because they're concerned about the help defense sliding underneath them. It's dangerous, and it happens much too often.


I disagree with much of what you say here. But, you are correct that it is a strategy to stand in front of someone. Especially if they have the ball. And yes, there are a few reasons for this. They include making someone shoot over a defender, not allowing layups, and to make the offensive work in order to score.

What makes McGillis and other players like him special is that they push the envelope and try go places other do not. This often times initiates contact, which is why you often saw contact but didn't always get fouls called. And I don't think that players worrying that someone may slide under them stopped a single drive to the basket all tournament. I think that thinking that is just nuts.

Playing defense is not a new thing.
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Re: Block/Charge

Postby defense1st » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:42 am

d_fense wrote:
defense1st wrote:There has been a trend growing basketball that I think we will see addressed soon, especially if it continues at its current pace. I'm interested to hear others' thoughts on this growing trend:

It has almost become a primary defensive strategy to just stand in front of someone, slide underneath an airborne player, and (sometimes, but not often) flop in hopes of drawing a charge. This strategy was extremely prevalent at the state B this year. Kyler McGillis comes to mind as someone who consistently was taken out at the legs after he had already jumped as his defenders attempted to draw a charge. Most of the time it was a no-call, but McGillis would go crashing to the floor in ways that made me surprised he would get back up. The championship was choc full of block/charge situations as well.

I have no problem with the officiating of the block/charge situations in the tournament. I think the officials correctly called them a majority of the time, I just think it happened too often.

This also isn't just an issue in ND basketball. I saw it all over the NCAA first two rounds as well.

I think the increasing prevalence of this "defensive strategy" creates a disjointed game, and causes most players to hesitate to drive because they're concerned about the help defense sliding underneath them. It's dangerous, and it happens much too often.


I disagree with much of what you say here. But, you are correct that it is a strategy to stand in front of someone. Especially if they have the ball. And yes, there are a few reasons for this. They include making someone shoot over a defender, not allowing layups, and to make the offensive work in order to score.

What makes McGillis and other players like him special is that they push the envelope and try go places other do not. This often times initiates contact, which is why you often saw contact but didn't always get fouls called. And I don't think that players worrying that someone may slide under them stopped a single drive to the basket all tournament. I think that thinking that is just nuts.

Playing defense is not a new thing.


Playing defense is not a new thing, but I don't think it's nuts to say that attempts to draw charges are happening more and more often. It's possible to defend a layup and make the offense work to score without hoping they bowl you over and putting the referee in a position to make a call.

There were many times where the offensive player made an attempt to get around the defender, but because someone hit the floor a foul "had" to be called. I still think no calls would have an acceptable call a majority of the time.

To be clear, I don't think it should be outlawed. There are definite times and places where taking a charge is the best option. But if it's a team/player's FIRST option when someone drives I don't think that's good defense.
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Re: Block/Charge

Postby Flip » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:59 am

Outside of you don't like teams trying to draw charging fouls I'm failing to see the point of your original post.
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Re: Block/Charge

Postby defense1st » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:49 am

I think it's happening more often than it should. I feel like it's becoming an overriding theme of games. I think players are erring on the side of taking a charge rather than contesting a shot. Sometimes it's the right choice, sometimes (I think) it's the wrong choice. Maybe I'm just having trouble articulating.

I'm probably just being irrational about it, but it's a feeling I couldn't shake after the weekend so I wanted to vent. I'd rather see a contested shot rather than forcing a whistle to be blown most trips down the floor.
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Re: Block/Charge

Postby defense1st » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:52 am

I might be alone on this hill, but I'm willing to die on it. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: Block/Charge

Postby sportsnut5 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:21 pm

It is impossible to play defense, without trying to take a charge when offensive players are attacking the basket looking for contact. If you only try to contest the shot you will be fouled out in 5 drives and give up so many easy lay-ups. The great players initiate contact on the offensive end, hoping to draw a foul and are skilled enough to get the old fashioned 3 point play. Those players who are not skilled enough, drive, initiate contact, and create a mess because they are out of control. McGillis is a very skilled player who is under control. Most of the time he is the one initiating the contact and this is why he has shot so many free throws through the years. Players like him are extremely hard to officiate, and even harder to defend.
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Re: Block/Charge

Postby BISONFAN18 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:50 pm

1. There are not enough charges called. Legal guarding position is maintained while moving laterally or backwards. "Sliding in" under an air born shooter does not necessarily make contact a block. If the defender gained and maintained legal position before the shooter went airborn then we have a charge if there is contact that warrents a call.

2. Players need to shoot more mid-range shots or pull up before contact at the rim.
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Re: Block/Charge

Postby Baller » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:55 pm

Taking a charge is playing good defense. If you are in legal guarding position or can rotate over on help and be in legal guarding position, why wouldn't you want your players to take a charge or try to take a charge??? That is playing better defense than letting your guy get you by the basket and trying to block a shot as 9 times out of 10 that is going to be a foul on the defensive player even if they have legal verticality....
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Re: Block/Charge

Postby The Schwab » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:08 pm

BISONFAN18 wrote:1. There are not enough charges called. Legal guarding position is maintained while moving laterally or backwards. "Sliding in" under an air born shooter does not necessarily make contact a block. If the defender gained and maintained legal position before the shooter went airborn then we have a charge if there is contact that warrents a call.

2. Players need to shoot more mid-range shots or pull up before contact at the rim.


This is a very good point, one that most don't understand.

Section 7 Blocking, Charging

Art 2.
b. If a guard has obtained a legal guarding position, the player with the ball must get his/her head and shoulders past the torso of the defensive player. If contact occurs on the torso of the defensive player, the dribbler is responsible for contact
c. There must be reasonable space between two defensive players or a defensive player and a boundary line to allow the dribbler to continue his/her path. If there is less than 3 feet of space, the dribbler has the greater responsibility for the contact.

*edited to add exact wording from rule book
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Re: Block/Charge

Postby mikeoxlong69 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:54 pm

A block? A charge? Who knows. What I do know is that I LOVE that there is a website where old men can sit at home and trash/talk about high school athletes. This website was wonderfully conceived and well thought out. The people who have the discussions on this board are always level-headed and never call out specific athletes by name. I mean, it's not like the athletes actually read this stuff? Right? Anyway, it's awesome that we all have the chance to talk about high school aged kids on a blog. Good stuff! Also, runforfun, your Twitter account went a little quiet after Oak Grove took the L from Wyndmere/Lidgerwood. What was up with that? There were plenty of people waiting for score updates. It's awesome that this board is completely anonymous and none of the athletes/high school kids know the names of ANY of the posters, right Dan?
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Re: Block/Charge

Postby defense1st » Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:06 pm

sportsnut5 wrote:...McGillis is a very skilled player who is under control. Most of the time he is the one initiating the contact and this is why he has shot so many free throws through the years. Players like him are extremely hard to officiate, and even harder to defend.


It seems I'm heavily in the minority here so I'll let it die.

I just want to clarify one thing though: I wasn't criticizing McGillis in any way. What's quoted above is dead on and was part of what made him so good throughout his high school career. I just used him as an example because I thought he was unnecessarily undercut quite a few times in the tournament by players attempting to draw charges in transition. He seemed less upset about it than I was, so I guess that's my cue...
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Re: Block/Charge

Postby Baller » Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:26 pm

mikeoxlong69 wrote:A block? A charge? Who knows. What I do know is that I LOVE that there is a website where old men can sit at home and trash/talk about high school athletes. This website was wonderfully conceived and well thought out. The people who have the discussions on this board are always level-headed and never call out specific athletes by name. I mean, it's not like the athletes actually read this stuff? Right? Anyway, it's awesome that we all have the chance to talk about high school aged kids on a blog. Good stuff! Also, runforfun, your Twitter account went a little quiet after Oak Grove took the L from Wyndmere/Lidgerwood. What was up with that? There were plenty of people waiting for score updates. It's awesome that this board is completely anonymous and none of the athletes/high school kids know the names of ANY of the posters, right Dan?


Are we talking about the same twitter Account?? ND HS Scores where run tweets out almost EVERY score from the state of ND? I think he does an amazing job at it and would like anyone else to even try to come close to compiling the scores that he does. If you scroll through the account, it is far from quiet after Oak Grove's loss. Does he tweet more region 1 stuff? Yep, cause he is at the games, not getting his information second hand. I HIGHLY appreciate the work that Dan puts in getting scores out.
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Re: Block/Charge

Postby leroybla » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:07 pm

Baller wrote:
mikeoxlong69 wrote:A block? A charge? Who knows. What I do know is that I LOVE that there is a website where old men can sit at home and trash/talk about high school athletes. This website was wonderfully conceived and well thought out. The people who have the discussions on this board are always level-headed and never call out specific athletes by name. I mean, it's not like the athletes actually read this stuff? Right? Anyway, it's awesome that we all have the chance to talk about high school aged kids on a blog. Good stuff! Also, runforfun, your Twitter account went a little quiet after Oak Grove took the L from Wyndmere/Lidgerwood. What was up with that? There were plenty of people waiting for score updates. It's awesome that this board is completely anonymous and none of the athletes/high school kids know the names of ANY of the posters, right Dan?


Are we talking about the same twitter Account?? ND HS Scores where run tweets out almost EVERY score from the state of ND? I think he does an amazing job at it and would like anyone else to even try to come close to compiling the scores that he does. If you scroll through the account, it is far from quiet after Oak Grove's loss. Does he tweet more region 1 stuff? Yep, cause he is at the games, not getting his information second hand. I HIGHLY appreciate the work that Dan puts in getting scores out.


agree.
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Re: Block/Charge

Postby kboftw » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:46 pm

mikeoxlong69 wrote:A block? A charge? Who knows. What I do know is that I LOVE that there is a website where old men can sit at home and trash/talk about high school athletes. This website was wonderfully conceived and well thought out. The people who have the discussions on this board are always level-headed and never call out specific athletes by name. I mean, it's not like the athletes actually read this stuff? Right? Anyway, it's awesome that we all have the chance to talk about high school aged kids on a blog. Good stuff! Also, runforfun, your Twitter account went a little quiet after Oak Grove took the L from Wyndmere/Lidgerwood. What was up with that? There were plenty of people waiting for score updates. It's awesome that this board is completely anonymous and none of the athletes/high school kids know the names of ANY of the posters, right Dan?
Agree with the first part of your post, tbh. I hate people anonymously trash-talking high school kids/coaches/refs on this forum. As a current high school coach, my assistants, my players and I work hard and do our best. I don't need Joe Six-pack telling me or my players why he thinks we stink. And it's tough enough finding officials to work our games.

But you lost all of your moral high ground with the second part. Run does a tireless and often thankless job compiling all of the information on this website. No need to grind a personal axe here.
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Re: Block/Charge

Postby winner-within » Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:31 am

mikeoxlong69 wrote:A block? A charge? Who knows. What I do know is that I LOVE that there is a website where old men can sit at home and trash/talk about high school athletes. This website was wonderfully conceived and well thought out. The people who have the discussions on this board are always level-headed and never call out specific athletes by name. I mean, it's not like the athletes actually read this stuff? Right? Anyway, it's awesome that we all have the chance to talk about high school aged kids on a blog. Good stuff! Also, runforfun, your Twitter account went a little quiet after Oak Grove took the L from Wyndmere/Lidgerwood. What was up with that? There were plenty of people waiting for score updates. It's awesome that this board is completely anonymous and none of the athletes/high school kids know the names of ANY of the posters, right Dan?



I agree with as lot of this too! like I said before this forum is "patrol city" and many many many know who I am I'm sure, but there are a million stalkers with no posts or less than 3....the life of blogs and forums :)
If you can’t excel with talent, triumph with effort.
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Re: Block/Charge

Postby HONKER » Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:38 pm

winner-within wrote:
mikeoxlong69 wrote:A block? A charge? Who knows. What I do know is that I LOVE that there is a website where old men can sit at home and trash/talk about high school athletes. This website was wonderfully conceived and well thought out. The people who have the discussions on this board are always level-headed and never call out specific athletes by name. I mean, it's not like the athletes actually read this stuff? Right? Anyway, it's awesome that we all have the chance to talk about high school aged kids on a blog. Good stuff! Also, runforfun, your Twitter account went a little quiet after Oak Grove took the L from Wyndmere/Lidgerwood. What was up with that? There were plenty of people waiting for score updates. It's awesome that this board is completely anonymous and none of the athletes/high school kids know the names of ANY of the posters, right Dan?



I agree with as lot of this too! like I said before this forum is "patrol city" and many many many know who I am I'm sure, but there are a million stalkers with no posts or less than 3....the life of blogs and forums :)

I know who you are haha
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Re: Block/Charge

Postby winner-within » Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:11 am

HONKER wrote:
winner-within wrote:
mikeoxlong69 wrote:A block? A charge? Who knows. What I do know is that I LOVE that there is a website where old men can sit at home and trash/talk about high school athletes. This website was wonderfully conceived and well thought out. The people who have the discussions on this board are always level-headed and never call out specific athletes by name. I mean, it's not like the athletes actually read this stuff? Right? Anyway, it's awesome that we all have the chance to talk about high school aged kids on a blog. Good stuff! Also, runforfun, your Twitter account went a little quiet after Oak Grove took the L from Wyndmere/Lidgerwood. What was up with that? There were plenty of people waiting for score updates. It's awesome that this board is completely anonymous and none of the athletes/high school kids know the names of ANY of the posters, right Dan?



I agree with as lot of this too! like I said before this forum is "patrol city" and many many many know who I am I'm sure, but there are a million stalkers with no posts or less than 3....the life of blogs and forums :)

I know who you are haha


:D Hope all is well Honker!!
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Re: Block/Charge

Postby HONKER » Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:22 pm

winner-within wrote:
HONKER wrote:
winner-within wrote:
mikeoxlong69 wrote:A block? A charge? Who knows. What I do know is that I LOVE that there is a website where old men can sit at home and trash/talk about high school athletes. This website was wonderfully conceived and well thought out. The people who have the discussions on this board are always level-headed and never call out specific athletes by name. I mean, it's not like the athletes actually read this stuff? Right? Anyway, it's awesome that we all have the chance to talk about high school aged kids on a blog. Good stuff! Also, runforfun, your Twitter account went a little quiet after Oak Grove took the L from Wyndmere/Lidgerwood. What was up with that? There were plenty of people waiting for score updates. It's awesome that this board is completely anonymous and none of the athletes/high school kids know the names of ANY of the posters, right Dan?



I agree with as lot of this too! like I said before this forum is "patrol city" and many many many know who I am I'm sure, but there are a million stalkers with no posts or less than 3....the life of blogs and forums :)

I know who you are haha

Going good. Just reading you guys posts are making me feel really old.
:D Hope all is well Honker!!
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