The Myth Part 3

Class B Boys
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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby Sniper » Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:07 pm

NodakQ2 wrote:
Sniper wrote:Why do people assume that the people “whining” about the not having a 3rd class are bitter people who weren’t good enough to beat a private school? Yes there are always going to be people who are going to find something to complain but I dare someone to find evidence that the private schools do not have a significant advantage in the current system.


I have no problem with them having an advantage. That’s life. All the sweeter when you beat them. Life isn’t even, life isn’t fair. It’s what makes “The B, the B”...


The thing is someone is always going to have an advantage. If we had a three class system the biggest schools in the smallest class would have an advantage. By your logic would you be okay with the privates being forced to compete in class A? Other schools would have an advantage, that’s life, would make it sweeter when the small privates beat the big class A school?

For the record I do not believe all privates should be class A.
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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby classB4ever » Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:09 pm

I find it quite comical. How the talking points are forced without any factual data and everyone falls in line. Throw the word "hate" in a few times and everyone caves. Do not have 1 single dog in this fight except I love bb. Small town class b are not the ones who are scared. The bigs and privates are scared. They've been the big boys on the block for so long, they are scared to play up. To play against like and tougher competition. What other reason would there be to fight against some of these proposals? They are afraid of not being the big boys. And they have the luxury of having the right people in place to keep it that way. Now, I have done my homework and do not get emotional on this subject. Let's see who the "whiners" are.
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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby District12guy » Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:22 pm

For some privates it's simply not possible to move up a class. For example, I know for a fact that Bishop Ryan and Our Reedemers aren't big schools enrollment wise, and most of their players have been there for their entire high school careers, so "recruiting" isn't an issue. Plenty of small town schools have more students. Is it really fair to move these schools up a class simply because they are private schools? Or because they are located in Minot? I don't know anything about any of the other privates, all I'm saying is not all of them have an overwhelming advantage as many here seem to believe. In fact, in region 6 the most dominant teams for a few years have been teams like Rugby and Berthold.
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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby Sniper » Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:36 pm

District12guy wrote:For some privates it's simply not possible to move up a class. For example, I know for a fact that Bishop Ryan and Our Reedemers aren't big schools enrollment wise, and most of their players have been there for their entire high school careers, so "recruiting" isn't an issue. Plenty of small town schools have more students. Is it really fair to move these schools up a class simply because they are private schools? Or because they are located in Minot? I don't know anything about any of the other privates, all I'm saying is not all of them have an overwhelming advantage as many here seem to believe. In fact, in region 6 the most dominant teams for a few years have been teams like Rugby and Berthold.


I think the “recruiting” associated with private schools is mostly pointed at the amount of students Shiloh has had transfer in over the years, which is a lot and many of them just happen to be good athletes. Also the advantages most people refer to when talking about private schools is living in towns that offer many more opportunities to improve in athletics. You can’t tell me living somewhere that you have little league sports, acceleration programs available, a YMCA, summer camps does not help. And yes schools like Thompson have a similar advantage living near bigger cities that offer this but I would rather have them be the “bad guys” than the schools located within those cities.
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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby NodakQ2 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:48 pm

Fewer schools=More classes will never make sense to me...never. Hey...why not do 23 classes with 8 teams each. Eliminate Districts and Regionals and everyone just makes it to State! They could not seed the tournament, not keep score, play for fun and give everyone a first place trophy. :lol:
Last edited by NodakQ2 on Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby Sniper » Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:54 pm

We have fewer football teams in the state than basketball teams. 4 football classes, 2 basketball. So you believe since there are fewer football teams we should only have 2 classes of football?
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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby NodakQ2 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:59 pm

Sniper wrote:We have fewer football teams in the state than basketball teams. 4 football classes, 2 basketball. So you believe since there are fewer football teams we should only have 2 classes of football?


For the number of schools in ND, 3 would be plenty. (Football is a different dynamic needing 11+ players to field a team).
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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby District12guy » Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:00 pm

Sniper wrote:
District12guy wrote:For some privates it's simply not possible to move up a class. For example, I know for a fact that Bishop Ryan and Our Reedemers aren't big schools enrollment wise, and most of their players have been there for their entire high school careers, so "recruiting" isn't an issue. Plenty of small town schools have more students. Is it really fair to move these schools up a class simply because they are private schools? Or because they are located in Minot? I don't know anything about any of the other privates, all I'm saying is not all of them have an overwhelming advantage as many here seem to believe. In fact, in region 6 the most dominant teams for a few years have been teams like Rugby and Berthold.


I think the “recruiting” associated with private schools is mostly pointed at the amount of students Shiloh has had transfer in over the years, which is a lot and many of them just happen to be good athletes. Also the advantages most people refer to when talking about private schools is living in towns that offer many more opportunities to improve in athletics. You can’t tell me living somewhere that you have little league sports, acceleration programs available, a YMCA, summer camps does not help. And yes schools like Thompson have a similar advantage living near bigger cities that offer this but I would rather have them be the “bad guys” than the schools located within those cities.



Good points, and while I agree that living closer to camps and the YMCA would definitely offer an advantage, I don't believe it would be a significant one. If a team is serious about basketball they are going to do whatever possible to insure success. Whether that means traveling the usually short distance to a bigger city for a camp, or shooting around in the school gym or a park during the summer instead of going to the YMCA. But yes maybe the earlier development programs offered in big cities do aid in development. That being said, players from smaller towns can usually still participate in these things as well, it just won't be as convenient. That's why I think it's unfair that some people entirely discredit the players and teams from private schools because they perceive that they hold an overwhelming advantage, and I don't think that's true in some cases.
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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby Sniper » Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:16 pm

District12guy wrote:
Sniper wrote:
District12guy wrote:For some privates it's simply not possible to move up a class. For example, I know for a fact that Bishop Ryan and Our Reedemers aren't big schools enrollment wise, and most of their players have been there for their entire high school careers, so "recruiting" isn't an issue. Plenty of small town schools have more students. Is it really fair to move these schools up a class simply because they are private schools? Or because they are located in Minot? I don't know anything about any of the other privates, all I'm saying is not all of them have an overwhelming advantage as many here seem to believe. In fact, in region 6 the most dominant teams for a few years have been teams like Rugby and Berthold.


I think the “recruiting” associated with private schools is mostly pointed at the amount of students Shiloh has had transfer in over the years, which is a lot and many of them just happen to be good athletes. Also the advantages most people refer to when talking about private schools is living in towns that offer many more opportunities to improve in athletics. You can’t tell me living somewhere that you have little league sports, acceleration programs available, a YMCA, summer camps does not help. And yes schools like Thompson have a similar advantage living near bigger cities that offer this but I would rather have them be the “bad guys” than the schools located within those cities.



Good points, and while I agree that living closer to camps and the YMCA would definitely offer an advantage, I don't believe it would be a significant one. If a team is serious about basketball they are going to do whatever possible to insure success. Whether that means traveling the usually short distance to a bigger city for a camp, or shooting around in the school gym or a park during the summer instead of going to the YMCA. But yes maybe the earlier development programs offered in big cities do aid in development. That being said, players from smaller towns can usually still participate in these things as well, it just won't be as convenient. That's why I think it's unfair that some people entirely discredit the players and teams from private schools because they perceive that they hold an overwhelming advantage, and I don't think that's true in some cases.


I understand it’s not true in every case. I just think the YMCA and youth sports leagues are huge advantages. Youth sports is where you learn your foundation of fundamentals. Smaller towns usually have an open gym or two a week while there are pickup games almost everyday at the YMCAs.
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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby Sniper » Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:23 pm

NodakQ2 wrote:
Sniper wrote:We have fewer football teams in the state than basketball teams. 4 football classes, 2 basketball. So you believe since there are fewer football teams we should only have 2 classes of football?


For the number of schools in ND, 3 would be plenty. (Football is a different dynamic needing 11+ players to field a team).


IMO 3 classes for football is unrealistic. Also more classes = less need for co-ops. Less co-ops = more teams.
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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby heimer » Sat Mar 10, 2018 6:13 pm

State:

co-op, co-op, North Star, St John, private, private, Former A, oil.

Yawn.

76 chumps think its great.
God is bigger than football.
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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby Bisonguy06 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 6:45 pm

Bisonguy06 wrote:It is indeed a long 'hate' list, including, but not limited to:

private schools of any size
big 'B' public schools
"suburban" (metro area) public schools of any size
schools that were big B's at one time, but are no longer
schools of any size that have had athletes transfer in or open enroll
And most importantly, any town that has more fast food than one Cenex with Hot Stuff Pizza.

If only the NDHSAA had the wisdom to throw all of them out of B, we'd be much better off.


“Co-ops” and “oil” have been added to the hate list, for the sake of accuracy.

Heimer wants to Make North Dakota 1950 again.
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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby Pit Bull » Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:10 am

Sniper wrote:
District12guy wrote:For some privates it's simply not possible to move up a class. For example, I know for a fact that Bishop Ryan and Our Reedemers aren't big schools enrollment wise, and most of their players have been there for their entire high school careers, so "recruiting" isn't an issue. Plenty of small town schools have more students. Is it really fair to move these schools up a class simply because they are private schools? Or because they are located in Minot? I don't know anything about any of the other privates, all I'm saying is not all of them have an overwhelming advantage as many here seem to believe. In fact, in region 6 the most dominant teams for a few years have been teams like Rugby and Berthold.


I think the “recruiting” associated with private schools is mostly pointed at the amount of students Shiloh has had transfer in over the years, which is a lot and many of them just happen to be good athletes. Also the advantages most people refer to when talking about private schools is living in towns that offer many more opportunities to improve in athletics. You can’t tell me living somewhere that you have little league sports, acceleration programs available, a YMCA, summer camps does not help. And yes schools like Thompson have a similar advantage living near bigger cities that offer this but I would rather have them be the “bad guys” than the schools located within those cities.


Curious who the boys have recruited over the years? Ogbu was a rare exception. So other than him since I'm sure you think he was recruited, who else in their boys program? Just curious since you seem to think it's rampant.
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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby justplayalready » Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:38 am

District12guy wrote:
Sniper wrote:
District12guy wrote:For some privates it's simply not possible to move up a class. For example, I know for a fact that Bishop Ryan and Our Reedemers aren't big schools enrollment wise, and most of their players have been there for their entire high school careers, so "recruiting" isn't an issue. Plenty of small town schools have more students. Is it really fair to move these schools up a class simply because they are private schools? Or because they are located in Minot? I don't know anything about any of the other privates, all I'm saying is not all of them have an overwhelming advantage as many here seem to believe. In fact, in region 6 the most dominant teams for a few years have been teams like Rugby and Berthold.


I think the “recruiting” associated with private schools is mostly pointed at the amount of students Shiloh has had transfer in over the years, which is a lot and many of them just happen to be good athletes. Also the advantages most people refer to when talking about private schools is living in towns that offer many more opportunities to improve in athletics. You can’t tell me living somewhere that you have little league sports, acceleration programs available, a YMCA, summer camps does not help. And yes schools like Thompson have a similar advantage living near bigger cities that offer this but I would rather have them be the “bad guys” than the schools located within those cities.



Good points, and while I agree that living closer to camps and the YMCA would definitely offer an advantage, I don't believe it would be a significant one. If a team is serious about basketball they are going to do whatever possible to insure success. Whether that means traveling the usually short distance to a bigger city for a camp, or shooting around in the school gym or a park during the summer instead of going to the YMCA. But yes maybe the earlier development programs offered in big cities do aid in development. That being said, players from smaller towns can usually still participate in these things as well, it just won't be as convenient. That's why I think it's unfair that some people entirely discredit the players and teams from private schools because they perceive that they hold an overwhelming advantage, and I don't think that's true in some cases.


I would agree "recruiting" may not be the right word...but you do see preplanning and development of the teams beginning in 2nd and 3rd grade. I know its tough to figure out who will be who when they are 16- or 17, but rolling the dice on a family name and history isn't that big of a stretch. And with that you do have a fairly good idea of what school these kids will be attending...

The Minot youth basketball scene is interesting, even more so with the Public B's starting to get there future teams in the mix...I think Minot high will suffer a little, but still be good due to sheer numbers as well as the B schools benefiting a bit more. With that the bigger non Minot cities do compete, but to win consistently they need some type of a mix of better players from the area. To play mid pack they can do it with maybe one or two added kids. Going all kids from one "big B town" teams usually get beat up on. And the small B towns aren't able to field a team and if they do, can't compete with the mid pack teams.

Again these are elementary kids so there is so much more in play, but you do glimpse the future of how R6 B will be in the 2020's
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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby BISONFAN18 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:22 am

Pit Bull wrote:
Sniper wrote:
District12guy wrote:For some privates it's simply not possible to move up a class. For example, I know for a fact that Bishop Ryan and Our Reedemers aren't big schools enrollment wise, and most of their players have been there for their entire high school careers, so "recruiting" isn't an issue. Plenty of small town schools have more students. Is it really fair to move these schools up a class simply because they are private schools? Or because they are located in Minot? I don't know anything about any of the other privates, all I'm saying is not all of them have an overwhelming advantage as many here seem to believe. In fact, in region 6 the most dominant teams for a few years have been teams like Rugby and Berthold.


I think the “recruiting” associated with private schools is mostly pointed at the amount of students Shiloh has had transfer in over the years, which is a lot and many of them just happen to be good athletes. Also the advantages most people refer to when talking about private schools is living in towns that offer many more opportunities to improve in athletics. You can’t tell me living somewhere that you have little league sports, acceleration programs available, a YMCA, summer camps does not help. And yes schools like Thompson have a similar advantage living near bigger cities that offer this but I would rather have them be the “bad guys” than the schools located within those cities.


Curious who the boys have recruited over the years? Ogbu was a rare exception. So other than him since I'm sure you think he was recruited, who else in their boys program? Just curious since you seem to think it's rampant.


There have been multiple people get jobs at Shiloh whos children happen to be star athletes there. Call it what you wish. It is just one of the perks of the location I guess. Don't pretend it does not happen.
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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby spins » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:11 am

I would agree "recruiting" may not be the right word...but you do see preplanning and development of the teams beginning in 2nd and 3rd grade. I know its tough to figure out who will be who when they are 16- or 17, but rolling the dice on a family name and history isn't that big of a stretch. And with that you do have a fairly good idea of what school these kids will be attending...


This could not be more spot on. Ive seen it first hand. Its more like parents are recruited to join the "in crowd BB scene" when their kids show promise at an early age. They get asked to join the best Y-ball or traveling team as a 2nd or 3rd grader...from there, its either Minot High, Ryan or ORCS. If you are a talented rural player from lets say Mohall...they will go after you also. As crazy as this sounds, the parents genetics are recruited at an early age.
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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby Sniper » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:22 am

Pit Bull wrote:
Sniper wrote:
District12guy wrote:For some privates it's simply not possible to move up a class. For example, I know for a fact that Bishop Ryan and Our Reedemers aren't big schools enrollment wise, and most of their players have been there for their entire high school careers, so "recruiting" isn't an issue. Plenty of small town schools have more students. Is it really fair to move these schools up a class simply because they are private schools? Or because they are located in Minot? I don't know anything about any of the other privates, all I'm saying is not all of them have an overwhelming advantage as many here seem to believe. In fact, in region 6 the most dominant teams for a few years have been teams like Rugby and Berthold.


I think the “recruiting” associated with private schools is mostly pointed at the amount of students Shiloh has had transfer in over the years, which is a lot and many of them just happen to be good athletes. Also the advantages most people refer to when talking about private schools is living in towns that offer many more opportunities to improve in athletics. You can’t tell me living somewhere that you have little league sports, acceleration programs available, a YMCA, summer camps does not help. And yes schools like Thompson have a similar advantage living near bigger cities that offer this but I would rather have them be the “bad guys” than the schools located within those cities.


Curious who the boys have recruited over the years? Ogbu was a rare exception. So other than him since I'm sure you think he was recruited, who else in their boys program? Just curious since you seem to think it's rampant.


To be clear I quoted someone else saying recruiting, I did not call it flat out recruiting but I could rattle off some names of athletes who transferred to Shiloh:

Donovan Lambert- Transferred to Shiloh in junior high. Played for new town as a freshman and sophomore. Transferred back to Shiloh as a junior. Rumored to have transferred back to New Town after basketball to graduate?
3 state appearances: 2 Shiloh, 1 New Town

Aaron Yellow Wolf
Transferred to Shiloh as a senior.

James Inman
Transferred to Shiloh from Century as a Sophomore.

Josh Wood
Transferred to Shiloh from Century as a Sophomore.

Chad Coulter
Transferred to Shiloh from Mandan. Not sure what year.

Ogbu
Transferred from Nigeria to Shiloh.

Matt Rask
Transferred to Shiloh as a Senior (maybe Junior)

Jace Ritzke
Transferred from Williston.
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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby whine » Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:26 pm

heimer wrote:State:

co-op, co-op, North Star, St John, private, private, Former A, oil.

Yawn.

76 chumps think its great.



A new class system has been created

Class A
Class B
Class C (Co-ops schools)
Class P (Private schools)
Class F (Former A schools)
Class O (oil country schools)

Make sense to me
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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby B-oldtimer » Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:49 pm

I thought I would just repeat analysis I did on this years region tournaments for boys and I also did it for girls too! I based analysis off plan in thread of 3 classes under class b basketball. In That plan they had class A division made up largest class B schools in North Dakota andrest would be class B. Starting with 8 regions and final 8 participants in the regions we had make up 28 A teams and 36 B teams starting in the Regions. After the first round we had 20 A teams still participating and 12 B teams still alive. I found this information quite interesting the proposed class A teams we had 28 out possible 32 teams so only four schools of this group did not make the region and even after the first round we still had 20 schools remaining or 62.5% of this class still participating in the regions. Now the Class B schools numbers showed only 12.5% of them survived after first round. Now we get to the championship game of the region we had only 3 class b teams surviving and of that group 2 of the three were privates. The field now going to state is made up 6 class A schools and 2 class B schools and one of the class B schools is a private school. The only real class b school going to state is ST. John and they just sneaked into the tournament by 2 point win and they once in generation group of kids that have made it to state. The girls side of class b was very similar to this also in who was making it to state. I have been watching this for 8 to 10 years and this make up regions and state tournament is only getting worse in that this top tier of schools are dominating class b. The numbers for class b would even be worse but there are several regions that only have couple of Class A school in their regions. Also the amount of difference between top and bottom is getting worse too which is proven by number blow out games we have today or we wouldn't have come up with the mercy rule for basketball. The people that are against change here either are ignorant or don't want to see the facts that are happening or they want to protect themselves because they are one of the winners with system.
Also I saw earlier that advantages that schools from larger towns or cities have is a fact because their are many more opportunities and population to have these programs. The small schools and coop schools becomes much more difficult to make these opportunities happen. They have to overcome distance of kids participating, added financial costs for the families providing these opportunities , and how these kids are expected to do this for many sports for their communities because it requires the same kids for all sports if these small schools or coops are going to field a team.
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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby NodakQ2 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:24 pm

whine wrote:
heimer wrote:State:

co-op, co-op, North Star, St John, private, private, Former A, oil.

Yawn.

76 chumps think its great.



A new class system has been created

Class A
Class B
Class C (Co-ops schools)
Class P (Private schools)
Class F (Former A schools)
Class O (oil country schools)

Make sense to me


Whine- This is good, but I think you need to split the B Class into three separate classes: “B+ = Bedroom Communties”, “B- Small schools” and “Bee- All Other.”
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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby whine » Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:17 pm

I stand corrected your plan blows mine out of the private water
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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby classB4ever » Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:10 pm

I for one like both of your proposals. It's people like you two who bring so much to the table with your insight. Please give us more detailed plans of what you're thinking.
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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby classB4ever » Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:32 pm

WHINE. A bit disappointed. Really liked your 16 class plan on another thread. Now you have it down to single digits. After all your insight in your first 10 posts, was hoping your plans were a bit more concrete. Could you help us out and tell us which way you're leaning? 10 + or 10-? Thanks.
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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby HSsportFan » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:23 am

Bigs - Smalls - Privates - Oils - Coops or whatever else we can come up with, IMO there is only one BIG number to look at and that is $150K in revenue for NDHSAA from the "B". So as long as that number stays like that nothing will change. No Myth here that is a FACT.
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Re: The Myth Part 3

Postby whine » Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:40 am

You are right. I am becoming a indecisive and that shows a sign of weakness. Now I am thinking, I'll take 16 over 10-. Although maybe 10- is acceptable to end this conversation. There I go again wishy-washy.
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