Region 1 and 2 Predictions

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Re: Region 1 and 2 Predictions

Postby maddog1971 » Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:28 pm

I don't understand why these big Schools like CC would have to start all those young kids. Really? It shows me that the program itself is lacking in leadership. People are defending coaches all the time that they put the best kids on the court. Nobody can tell me out of 100 plus boys to choose from that they can not find 5 junior and senior boys that are better suited to play. I have many coaches that are friends and one point we argue all the time is why give away a couple seasons of basketball just to get your young kids experience so they are good when they are seniors.
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Re: Region 1 and 2 Predictions

Postby packers21 » Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:49 pm

maddog1971 wrote:I don't understand why these big Schools like CC would have to start all those young kids. Really? It shows me that the program itself is lacking in leadership. People are defending coaches all the time that they put the best kids on the court. Nobody can tell me out of 100 plus boys to choose from that they can not find 5 junior and senior boys that are better suited to play. I have many coaches that are friends and one point we argue all the time is why give away a couple seasons of basketball just to get your young kids experience so they are good when they are seniors.



There are lots of reasons to play younger kids ( often more coachable, harder workers, most of the time the younger kids are actually just better). I would rather win the same amount of games with a younger team and gain experience than lose games with upperclassmen that do not care. Most coaches start with the older kids at the beginning of the year and slowly play the younger kids as they prove themselves on the B team and with Varsity minutes. I have seen CC play a few times this year and was very surprised at the NC score.
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Re: Region 1 and 2 Predictions

Postby winner-within » Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:13 pm

makes me think of the "3 class system thread" and you could tie the some of this train of thought into it...."how many posters on here were catered to as a Jr. and Sr. because you were a Jr. or Sr.? but now its time we start doing that? I've seen a lot of benefit of the doubt given to upperclassmen but it comes to the point that if you are unselfish, can play together, work hard and help lead regardless of grade.....than play!!.....our coach used to say "If I'm NOT hollering at you, that isn't a good sign" and there were some upperclassman he didn't holler at.....don't know the skivvy on CC or any other school but I know whats right....If Kentucky can Start 5 freshman and cruise....so can I.e. Po-dunk ND....key word is "if"
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Re: Region 1 and 2 Predictions

Postby pterodactyl5 » Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:32 pm

I can see PRFL coming out of region 2. After watching them play against a tough Hcv team and Grafton. They look like a top tier team. Adam.Z is playing very well, Jace Jelhicka is starting to hit shots that he didn’t at the beginning of the year. Keep an eye on PRFL.
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Re: Region 1 and 2 Predictions

Postby ND Sports Fan » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:40 pm

leroybla wrote:
ND Sports Fan wrote:To quote Dennis Green, Central Cass "is who we thought they were". Meaning, they are undiciplined, young, lack scoring punch, and lack direction. This appears to be a team that shows promise but doesn't deliver. They continue to show basic fundamental flaws that should ha e been easily correctable by now. At some point, you are what your record indicates. Their lack of structure and in game adjustments point to more than a talent deficiency.

It's important to remember that Central Cass starts 2 freshmen, 2 sophomores and a junior, against last night's opponent that started 4 (large) seniors and a freshman. CC has only one senior on the roster. And youthful players aren't as strong or as experienced, and are entitled to a bad game. When CC shoots well (they didn't last nite) they can be competitive.


Is this the goal? To be competitive?. I don't recall any record that shows wins, losses, and competed well. Maybe you shouldn't be only about winning, but when you say if this team shoots well they can be competitive, this is a squad that is currently 2 and 13 on the season, and is averaging right around 50 points or maybe even a shade under per game. They continually turn it over entirely too much and do not have a winning approach. At some point as stated before, this can't be about town deficiency. There has to be a question about preparedness, putting kids in the right position to be successful, and correcting those things that are correctable.
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Re: Region 1 and 2 Predictions

Postby leroybla » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:33 pm

ND Sports Fan wrote:
leroybla wrote:
ND Sports Fan wrote:To quote Dennis Green, Central Cass "is who we thought they were". Meaning, they are undiciplined, young, lack scoring punch, and lack direction. This appears to be a team that shows promise but doesn't deliver. They continue to show basic fundamental flaws that should ha e been easily correctable by now. At some point, you are what your record indicates. Their lack of structure and in game adjustments point to more than a talent deficiency.

It's important to remember that Central Cass starts 2 freshmen, 2 sophomores and a junior, against last night's opponent that started 4 (large) seniors and a freshman. CC has only one senior on the roster. And youthful players aren't as strong or as experienced, and are entitled to a bad game. When CC shoots well (they didn't last nite) they can be competitive.


Is this the goal? To be competitive?. I don't recall any record that shows wins, losses, and competed well. Maybe you shouldn't be only about winning, but when you say if this team shoots well they can be competitive, this is a squad that is currently 2 and 13 on the season, and is averaging right around 50 points or maybe even a shade under per game. They continually turn it over entirely too much and do not have a winning approach. At some point as stated before, this can't be about town deficiency. There has to be a question about preparedness, putting kids in the right position to be successful, and correcting those things that are correctable.

Note also that Watford City has a 3-14 record but shares a characteristic with Central Cass - they both play much tougher competition as evidenced by their Strength of Schedule rating (SOS).
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Re: Region 1 and 2 Predictions

Postby d_fense » Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:54 pm

ND Sports Fan wrote:
leroybla wrote:
ND Sports Fan wrote:To quote Dennis Green, Central Cass "is who we thought they were". Meaning, they are undiciplined, young, lack scoring punch, and lack direction. This appears to be a team that shows promise but doesn't deliver. They continue to show basic fundamental flaws that should ha e been easily correctable by now. At some point, you are what your record indicates. Their lack of structure and in game adjustments point to more than a talent deficiency.

It's important to remember that Central Cass starts 2 freshmen, 2 sophomores and a junior, against last night's opponent that started 4 (large) seniors and a freshman. CC has only one senior on the roster. And youthful players aren't as strong or as experienced, and are entitled to a bad game. When CC shoots well (they didn't last nite) they can be competitive.


Is this the goal? To be competitive?. I don't recall any record that shows wins, losses, and competed well. Maybe you shouldn't be only about winning, but when you say if this team shoots well they can be competitive, this is a squad that is currently 2 and 13 on the season, and is averaging right around 50 points or maybe even a shade under per game. They continually turn it over entirely too much and do not have a winning approach. At some point as stated before, this can't be about town deficiency. There has to be a question about preparedness, putting kids in the right position to be successful, and correcting those things that are correctable.


Yes, I think the goal is to compete. Compete to the best of your ability, hopefully getting better each time out. If it gets you a win, that is great. If your goal is just to win, and you are a young team, or just not very talented, what will happen if you aren't winning? If you aren't reaching your goal night after night, might as well just hang it up.?.?.?. I would hope not. You better set some other goals that are more attainable with work.

The most successful team in region 1 or 2 in the last, nearly 20 years is Oak Grove. Their goal isn't to win every game. They go out and schedule as much good competition as they can. They want to be as good as they can be from playing top teams, regardless if it costs them wins early in the season. There goal is to compete and get better, for when the games really matter.
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Re: Region 1 and 2 Predictions

Postby theman » Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:22 am

leroybla wrote:
ND Sports Fan wrote:
leroybla wrote:
ND Sports Fan wrote:To quote Dennis Green, Central Cass "is who we thought they were". Meaning, they are undiciplined, young, lack scoring punch, and lack direction. This appears to be a team that shows promise but doesn't deliver. They continue to show basic fundamental flaws that should ha e been easily correctable by now. At some point, you are what your record indicates. Their lack of structure and in game adjustments point to more than a talent deficiency.

It's important to remember that Central Cass starts 2 freshmen, 2 sophomores and a junior, against last night's opponent that started 4 (large) seniors and a freshman. CC has only one senior on the roster. And youthful players aren't as strong or as experienced, and are entitled to a bad game. When CC shoots well (they didn't last nite) they can be competitive.


Is this the goal? To be competitive?. I don't recall any record that shows wins, losses, and competed well. Maybe you shouldn't be only about winning, but when you say if this team shoots well they can be competitive, this is a squad that is currently 2 and 13 on the season, and is averaging right around 50 points or maybe even a shade under per game. They continually turn it over entirely too much and do not have a winning approach. At some point as stated before, this can't be about town deficiency. There has to be a question about preparedness, putting kids in the right position to be successful, and correcting those things that are correctable.

Note also that Watford City has a 3-14 record but shares a characteristic with Central Cass - they both play much tougher competition as evidenced by their Strength of Schedule rating (SOS).


New Town and Dunseith both have a stronger SOS than CC but they are 15-2/13-4 respectively. What's your point?
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Re: Region 1 and 2 Predictions

Postby winner-within » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:44 am

pterodactyl5 wrote:I can see PRFL coming out of region 2. After watching them play against a tough Hcv team and Grafton. They look like a top tier team. Adam.Z is playing very well, Jace Jelhicka is starting to hit shots that he didn’t at the beginning of the year. keep an eye on PRFL.


yep, said that way before the season started......also if Cavalier gets soph. guard C. Ratchenski back on the court full time they will be a true force...
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Re: Region 1 and 2 Predictions

Postby bigballer69 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:36 pm

pterodactyl5 wrote:I can see PRFL coming out of region 2. After watching them play against a tough Hcv team and Grafton. They look like a top tier team. Adam.Z is playing very well, Jace Jelhicka is starting to hit shots that he didn’t at the beginning of the year. Keep an eye on PRFL.

Definitely agree with this. This is a team that's getting better every game and led by someone who deserves coach of the year in only his second season.
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Re: Region 1 and 2 Predictions

Postby packers21 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:53 pm

bigballer69 wrote:
pterodactyl5 wrote:I can see PRFL coming out of region 2. After watching them play against a tough Hcv team and Grafton. They look like a top tier team. Adam.Z is playing very well, Jace Jelhicka is starting to hit shots that he didn’t at the beginning of the year. Keep an eye on PRFL.

Definitely agree with this. This is a team that's getting better every game and led by someone who deserves coach of the year in only his second season.


Fan of the toughness on the PRFL team and Kuchar is def in the running for COY, but they aren't coming out of R2.
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Re: Region 1 and 2 Predictions

Postby maddog1971 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:10 pm

What every happen to a coach adjusting to the style of play of the players they have on the floor. If you are fast, athletic and not much skill.... press and run as hard as you can the whole game. Good things will happen. If you can not shoot.... well do not run a shooting offense. I am sick of these kids that get put in with young men and get bad habits.... like living behind the 3 point line.... And yes... I am referencing Enderlin and Northern Cass. Let those young kids grow up playing kids their age.
I was a young kid that played at an early age and got my butt beat up all the time. I was 6'2 and strong as an 8th grader. I started closing my eyes when I went in the paint because I did not want to get him in the face. Getting my butt chewed because I could not box out the older bigger kids.
The Keller kid from Kindred. The older kids beat on him enough where he can not go up strong and finish line he should. Bad habits.
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Re: Region 1 and 2 Predictions

Postby leroybla » Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:46 pm

theman wrote:
leroybla wrote:
ND Sports Fan wrote:
leroybla wrote:
ND Sports Fan wrote:To quote Dennis Green, Central Cass "is who we thought they were". Meaning, they are undiciplined, young, lack scoring punch, and lack direction. This appears to be a team that shows promise but doesn't deliver. They continue to show basic fundamental flaws that should ha e been easily correctable by now. At some point, you are what your record indicates. Their lack of structure and in game adjustments point to more than a talent deficiency.

It's important to remember that Central Cass starts 2 freshmen, 2 sophomores and a junior, against last night's opponent that started 4 (large) seniors and a freshman. CC has only one senior on the roster. And youthful players aren't as strong or as experienced, and are entitled to a bad game. When CC shoots well (they didn't last nite) they can be competitive.


Is this the goal? To be competitive?. I don't recall any record that shows wins, losses, and competed well. Maybe you shouldn't be only about winning, but when you say if this team shoots well they can be competitive, this is a squad that is currently 2 and 13 on the season, and is averaging right around 50 points or maybe even a shade under per game. They continually turn it over entirely too much and do not have a winning approach. At some point as stated before, this can't be about town deficiency. There has to be a question about preparedness, putting kids in the right position to be successful, and correcting those things that are correctable.

Note also that Watford City has a 3-14 record but shares a characteristic with Central Cass - they both play much tougher competition as evidenced by their Strength of Schedule rating (SOS).


New Town and Dunseith both have a stronger SOS than CC but they are 15-2/13-4 respectively. What's your point?

Look, I can't recall CC having a losing season in the past 30 years. Give them a break. Most all players play meaningful minutes every nite, but only 5 can start. BTW, neither NewTown nor Dunseith field wrestling teams as do CC and WC. All four schools are of similar size.
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Re: Region 1 and 2 Predictions

Postby ND Sports Fan » Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:16 pm

leroybla wrote:
theman wrote:
leroybla wrote:
ND Sports Fan wrote:
leroybla wrote:
ND Sports Fan wrote:To quote Dennis Green, Central Cass "is who we thought they were". Meaning, they are undiciplined, young, lack scoring punch, and lack direction. This appears to be a team that shows promise but doesn't deliver. They continue to show basic fundamental flaws that should ha e been easily correctable by now. At some point, you are what your record indicates. Their lack of structure and in game adjustments point to more than a talent deficiency.

It's important to remember that Central Cass starts 2 freshmen, 2 sophomores and a junior, against last night's opponent that started 4 (large) seniors and a freshman. CC has only one senior on the roster. And youthful players aren't as strong or as experienced, and are entitled to a bad game. When CC shoots well (they didn't last nite) they can be competitive.


Is this the goal? To be competitive?. I don't recall any record that shows wins, losses, and competed well. Maybe you shouldn't be only about winning, but when you say if this team shoots well they can be competitive, this is a squad that is currently 2 and 13 on the season, and is averaging right around 50 points or maybe even a shade under per game. They continually turn it over entirely too much and do not have a winning approach. At some point as stated before, this can't be about town deficiency. There has to be a question about preparedness, putting kids in the right position to be successful, and correcting those things that are correctable.

Note also that Watford City has a 3-14 record but shares a characteristic with Central Cass - they both play much tougher competition as evidenced by their Strength of Schedule rating (SOS).


New Town and Dunseith both have a stronger SOS than CC but they are 15-2/13-4 respectively. What's your point?

Look, I can't recall CC having a losing season in the past 30 years. Give them a break. Most all players play meaningful minutes every nite, but only 5 can start. BTW, neither NewTown nor Dunseith field wrestling teams as do CC and WC. All four schools are of similar size.


That is no reason to be accepting of a 2 win season. Change your philosophy and put kids in a position to improve and be successful. Doing the same thing night after night with no adjustments should not be acceptable. This is not on the players. They are the easiest team to game plan for.
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Re: Region 1 and 2 Predictions

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:28 pm

on a different note:

Hillsboro-Central Valley defeated Grafton tonight 71-64 in OT
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Re: Region 1 and 2 Predictions

Postby balla45 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:52 am

maddog1971 wrote:What every happen to a coach adjusting to the style of play of the players they have on the floor. If you are fast, athletic and not much skill.... press and run as hard as you can the whole game. Good things will happen. If you can not shoot.... well do not run a shooting offense. I am sick of these kids that get put in with young men and get bad habits.... like living behind the 3 point line.... And yes... I am referencing Enderlin and Northern Cass. Let those young kids grow up playing kids their age.
I was a young kid that played at an early age and got my butt beat up all the time. I was 6'2 and strong as an 8th grader. I started closing my eyes when I went in the paint because I did not want to get him in the face. Getting my butt chewed because I could not box out the older bigger kids.
The Keller kid from Kindred. The older kids beat on him enough where he can not go up strong and finish line he should. Bad habits.



I do not know Kindred's coach. I know Enderlin's coach and he does a nice job. What would you prefer that Kindred's coach does with Keller? What is the benefit of playing a kid at a level where he is completely dominant. You don't learn to go up strong by going up against people that can not stop you and are physically inferior. You learn how to go up against strength and size by going up against strength and size. Joe Hurlburt is going to be D1. I imagine he gets little going up against small town kids his own age. "Why waste a year doing that when he is competitive playing varsity basketball? Its a bit different with girls basketball, but I live in Bismarck where there is a rule that players are not allowed to play up in junior high. There is currently a 6'4" sophomore in Bismarck who got 0 out of playing school basketball as a 7th and 8th grader, and I would say the same for another 7th grade girl in Bismarck who is probably going to be D1. Let the talented kids play at a level where they are challenged. I am sure that junior Gavin Keller or sophomore Joe Hurlburt will be a lot better at that age because of the challenges that their coaches are putting on them now. Not a lot is gained by getting 25 a game against players your own age when you are 6 inches taller than all of them.
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Re: Region 1 and 2 Predictions

Postby lennylive » Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:56 am

balla45 wrote:
maddog1971 wrote:What every happen to a coach adjusting to the style of play of the players they have on the floor. If you are fast, athletic and not much skill.... press and run as hard as you can the whole game. Good things will happen. If you can not shoot.... well do not run a shooting offense. I am sick of these kids that get put in with young men and get bad habits.... like living behind the 3 point line.... And yes... I am referencing Enderlin and Northern Cass. Let those young kids grow up playing kids their age.
I was a young kid that played at an early age and got my butt beat up all the time. I was 6'2 and strong as an 8th grader. I started closing my eyes when I went in the paint because I did not want to get him in the face. Getting my butt chewed because I could not box out the older bigger kids.
The Keller kid from Kindred. The older kids beat on him enough where he can not go up strong and finish line he should. Bad habits.



I do not know Kindred's coach. I know Enderlin's coach and he does a nice job. What would you prefer that Kindred's coach does with Keller? What is the benefit of playing a kid at a level where he is completely dominant. You don't learn to go up strong by going up against people that can not stop you and are physically inferior. You learn how to go up against strength and size by going up against strength and size. Joe Hurlburt is going to be D1. I imagine he gets little going up against small town kids his own age. "Why waste a year doing that when he is competitive playing varsity basketball? Its a bit different with girls basketball, but I live in Bismarck where there is a rule that players are not allowed to play up in junior high. There is currently a 6'4" sophomore in Bismarck who got 0 out of playing school basketball as a 7th and 8th grader, and I would say the same for another 7th grade girl in Bismarck who is probably going to be D1. Let the talented kids play at a level where they are challenged. I am sure that junior Gavin Keller or sophomore Joe Hurlburt will be a lot better at that age because of the challenges that their coaches are putting on them now. Not a lot is gained by getting 25 a game against players your own age when you are 6 inches taller than all of them.

Just to inform you Joe and Gus Hurlburt are 8th graders...Enderlin starts 1 eighth grader 1 sophmore and 3 juniors.... they have no seniors and the bench mainly consists of 8th graders, freshman and sophmores. They also have a few up and coming 7th graders who could probably compete at Varsity level.Joe was coming off the bench last year as a 7th grader. And your right, he will probably without a doubt go D1.
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Re: Region 1 and 2 Predictions

Postby hoophoophoop » Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:09 am

lenny live i been sitting in the weeds waiting to see enderlin play, they are nice players but enderlin dont hold a candle to the 4 sophmores and a junior that start for richland, when the kids get back and they will, Richland is the best team in region 1, by the way the hulburts kid will not be d-1, hes a 6'7 kid playing region 1, grant it 8th grade but anyone who knows basketball will understand
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Re: Region 1 and 2 Predictions

Postby Flip » Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:40 am

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Re: Region 1 and 2 Predictions

Postby packers21 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:10 am

hoophoophoop wrote:lenny live i been sitting in the weeds waiting to see enderlin play, they are nice players but enderlin dont hold a candle to the 4 sophmores and a junior that start for richland, when the kids get back and they will, Richland is the best team in region 1, by the way the hulburts kid will not be d-1, hes a 6'7 kid playing region 1, grant it 8th grade but anyone who knows basketball will understand



Richland isnt the best team in the Region (this year) no matter who they run out there, take you're colt goggles off please! Ive seen Enderlin play twice, the hulburt kid has a lot of potential and its impossible to tell how good someone will be in 5 years, if he puts in the work and the time anything can happen.
Last edited by packers21 on Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Region 1 and 2 Predictions

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:14 am

hoophoophoop wrote:lenny live i been sitting in the weeds waiting to see enderlin play, they are nice players but enderlin dont hold a candle to the 4 sophmores and a junior that start for richland, when the kids get back and they will, Richland is the best team in region 1, by the way the hulburts kid will not be d-1, hes a 6'7 kid playing region 1, grant it 8th grade but anyone who knows basketball will understand


Not sure I agree with the bolded statement

You never know who may go D1...area D1 colleges may take a chance with height (examples: James Richman - Maple Valley, Lucas Moorman - Williston, Austin Dufault - Killdeer). Next few years of development will be key...
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Re: Region 1 and 2 Predictions

Postby hoophoophoop » Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:05 pm

ok i will admit i am partial, but i know basketball and Richland will be able to compete with oak grove and think they have a shot to win, plus alot great players came out of region 1 and i pretty sure i cant think of anyone who has played d-1, thats all im saying, i think the hulbert kid is a great player just not d-1, and i hope he does make d-1 to prove me wrong, just my opinion
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Re: Region 1 and 2 Predictions

Postby balla45 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:08 pm

hoophoophoop wrote:lenny live i been sitting in the weeds waiting to see enderlin play, they are nice players but enderlin dont hold a candle to the 4 sophmores and a junior that start for richland, when the kids get back and they will, Richland is the best team in region 1, by the way the hulburts kid will not be d-1, hes a 6'7 kid playing region 1, grant it 8th grade but anyone who knows basketball will understand


Lol let us pretend Hurlburt did not already visit Creighton and Wisconsin. I am done commenting on this topic.
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Re: Region 1 and 2 Predictions

Postby lennylive » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:43 pm

balla45 wrote:
hoophoophoop wrote:lenny live i been sitting in the weeds waiting to see enderlin play, they are nice players but enderlin dont hold a candle to the 4 sophmores and a junior that start for richland, when the kids get back and they will, Richland is the best team in region 1, by the way the hulburts kid will not be d-1, hes a 6'7 kid playing region 1, grant it 8th grade but anyone who knows basketball will understand


Lol let us pretend Hurlburt did not already visit Creighton and Wisconsin. I am done commenting on this topic.

6'7 as an 8th grader....projected to be 6'10...and yes... he has a lot of work ahead of him to become D1

but I would say he has the potential to do so..if he stays healthy and continues to improve..guess we will wait and see... No matter what...I think Enderlin will be contenders the next 4 years...as long as they keep putting in the time and work ethic... Grovers come to town tonight..I will be there for JV and Varsity...as a team who never played together until this year...they have been hanging tough with all the better teams in the Region... so we will see...they will only be better next year is my take.

As I had expected OG won...but the Eagles did well against them IMO. 16 pt lead at half..and a final score of 96-74... the final 3 minutes was basically JV. Christianson did what he does best...score ..ALOT. Hurlburt had a tough time with Rodriguez, but a few more years and a little more beef on his bones and he will easily handle those bigger players he has to defend, and with his brother Gus teamed up with him it will play out well. Grovers like always have 4 off the bench, but look to loose a lot this year with Anderson,ChristiansonTeigen graduating.. Card will do what he does best...make all his players good, teach them good fundementals... that's what great coaches do. It helps to have access to the Fargo population ..but I have no doubt any school can have a great team if they have players who strive to improve themselves and work hard at bettering their all around game.
Enderlin has great potential to be a serious contender. Next year they will return all of the current team. I really hope they all work hard on improving their game , shooting, ball handling skills. Coach Kraft will have another great run of 3-4 years with some talented boys to work with as he did a few years ago. I look forward to seeing how it all plays out.
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Re: Region 1 and 2 Predictions

Postby winner-within » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:09 pm

Park River-FL def. Cavalier 68-63


With 17.4 secs left score was 64 to 62 Park River leading and Cav had the ball and unfortunately coughed it up then fouled and the score separated to 66 62.... cav went to the line with 2.2 left made one and then PR ran a play to get one at the buzzer....was a true late season Class B battle
If you can’t excel with talent, triumph with effort.
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